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Allow [WIP] groups in the "Group Idea" Forum.

Should we allow WIP groups to post?  

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57 minutes ago, Shanoby said:

I am sad you post your thoughts without even reading...

I read the OP, not people's books. 

57 minutes ago, Shanoby said:

Cause most of your questions you setup here, were answered in my previous reply, but ok.

You say that IG recruitment isn't an option. Why? And, there's plenty of alternative methods i.e status updates, lore forums etc.  Then you don't have a time limit to get enough members.

57 minutes ago, Shanoby said:

Also once someone adds "SPAM ALL USERS WITH GROUP INVITE" button no thanks on messaging people one by one.

Perhaps it hasn't worked for you in the past because you think spamming everyone with a group invite would work. Besides, you select multiple CCs in a PM, you don't have to message people one by one. 

57 minutes ago, Shanoby said:

What would also guarantee me, that in that first week I post it, all the people see my PM and reply to it in 7 days?

Simple, don't post the thread until you have enough members. Use Google Docs and post the thread in there for people to read. 

1 hour ago, Shanoby said:

Im getting a bit heated here, cause I cannot believe I even have to explain some of this. 😡

Perhaps you should take a walk outside and get some fresh air. 

Edited by Jamie

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1 minute ago, Rover said:

 

Based on the group guide here, I don't believe that is how it should be handled.

The below is the quote about what is required to start a group.

 

The approval requirements list you need 5 members to get approved, but I see nothing in there about shutting a group down immediately if they don't have 5 members. 

The information on that page even suggests using the period after creating the group to get your 5 members.

Right I understand that its written there, but thats definitely not the case.

Ive seen a few groups go up with 2/3 members and then get archived by staff until they get 5.

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Just now, PhoenyxxRP said:

Right I understand that its written there, but thats definitely not the case.

Ive seen a few groups go up with 2/3 members and then get archived by staff until they get 5.

I have only seen this applied to approved groups that fell below. If it is being handled that way I agree that either the practice needs to stop, or the page should be edited to reflect the practice.

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1 minute ago, Rover said:

I have only seen this applied to approved groups that fell below. If it is being handled that way I agree that either the practice needs to stop, or the page should be edited to reflect the practice.

Yeah, I get the approved group thing. However, I've seen it done two ways: immediate archive until the page is 'complete' (meaning 5 members) or like @AndreyQ said they are given a week. 
 

Even if given a week I think that'd be okay, then I'd say not to a WIP folder. But as it stands right now, its a hit or miss.

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With no ability to save the thread a group should be given a couple days to be WIP (outside of roster) IMO. I personally think a group shouldn't even be going up until 5 members. If your group doesn't have 5 members at incarnation it's not a group concept and finding members OOC seems a bit eh. 

Tl;dr: allow WIP for graphics, lore etc.

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27 minutes ago, Rover said:

 

Based on the group guide here, I don't believe that is how it should be handled.

The below is the quote about what is required to start a group.

 

The approval requirements list you need 5 members to get approved, but I see nothing in there about shutting a group down immediately if they don't have 5 members. 

The information on that page even suggests using the period after creating the group to get your 5 members.

I think you knew what I meant earlier without your 'oh no it isnt' reply too.

 

I've seen groups closed with the post being 'you have failed to reach 5 members within the week. Group ideas need longer than a week to pick up members, some of us are lucky to have a loyal bunch of buddies that will jump on anything you make, resulting in you not having to worry about member count issues. Others and mainly new to the community players may not have that privilege and are just seen as a whitename with some generic group, give them a chance, remove the timelimit and allow WIP posts to be made.

For me personally, when I was creating a group idea or editing a previous version before reopening my last group, I had to create a PM with myself in order to see how it looks on the forum, layout etc.

I don't see the need to 'crack down' as such on one area of the forums where we have a forum section titled 'forum games' which is basically a rubbish pit apart from a few.

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10 minutes ago, Ryan Shepherd said:

Snip

I did not know. I've got no reason to be dishing out 'no u' comments to people for no reason. I was under the impression you were mistaken about it, and was trying to be helpful.

 

The group section isn't one I've spent much time reading unless I'm reviewing active groups, and it hasn't been until I became a GM I started to really look into the Group Ideas section. There is nothing written in the group rules thread about a timeline to get 5 members (indeed, it even has written it can take between a few days and a month to get approved) so I wasn't aware we were enforcing a week limit to gather enough members to bolster the ranks. Apologies for being mistaken!

 

I can see the reason why a limit was included so that people don't just have the group page idling forever if they aren't gung-ho on recruiting, but it does make the idea of allowing a WIP section more agreeable to me.

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23 minutes ago, Rover said:

There is nothing written in the group rules thread about a timeline to get 5 members (indeed, it even has written it can take between a few days and a month to get approved) so I wasn't aware we were enforcing a week limit to gather enough members to bolster the ranks. Apologies for being mistaken!

Below we see multiple groups being closed for not finding 5 members to fill their roster in one week, by @Zanaan. I have taken screenshots for ease of viewing where some threads were closed for not having 5 members in the 'one week' time limit that is apparently not a thing but seems to be a thing.

ffaf0799da37fa9d03f6e21c56525178.png.611d0dc6de8772fd41899fae4442ea97.png8d013856d8c91d954f258d0cb476aaa9.png.454592a5d504d60fee18e57523d5585f.png3a8a558a4692b7c153087bb7ec86b706.png.35d35d0e5a23c62dcd6d58eb0f1e54f0.pngf7233b35a2346ce80744c6a61bc1471a.png.e65fe0bed62034e946fd13d0737a6d2d.png3bb69f6f1a7920e129263cba90596e41.png.c94512c391995da66423067fcd0e13b3.png

Notice the words: failed, one week & 5 members.

I don't believe this is fair for these people trying to make a group to make a difference in the server or to simply to meet a bunch of like minded people to play with.

 

Edited by Ryan Shepherd

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Just to add an extra statement to the above. I think it's been primarily Zanaan who has even allowed the 1 week. I've seen WIP groups being archived instantly.

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24 minutes ago, Ryan Shepherd said:

 -snip-

Exactly and the worst part being after which you have to wait for 30 days to get unarchived???

Why? Is not like I have abandoned the idea...

Like the system was created to keep the idea section clean so there will be no dead projects... but instead creates this useless, annoying system and hoops you have to jump through to get a group up and going.

Edited by Shanoby

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34 minutes ago, Ryan Shepherd said:

Below we see multiple groups being closed for not finding 5 members to fill their roster in one week, by @Zanaan. I have taken screenshots for ease of viewing where some threads were closed for not having 5 members in the 'one week' time limit that is apparently not a thing but seems to be a thing.

ffaf0799da37fa9d03f6e21c56525178.png.611d0dc6de8772fd41899fae4442ea97.png8d013856d8c91d954f258d0cb476aaa9.png.454592a5d504d60fee18e57523d5585f.png3a8a558a4692b7c153087bb7ec86b706.png.35d35d0e5a23c62dcd6d58eb0f1e54f0.pngf7233b35a2346ce80744c6a61bc1471a.png.e65fe0bed62034e946fd13d0737a6d2d.png3bb69f6f1a7920e129263cba90596e41.png.c94512c391995da66423067fcd0e13b3.png

Notice the words: failed, one week & 5 members.

I don't believe this is fair for these people trying to make a group to make a difference in the server or to simply to meet a bunch of like minded people to play with.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Shanoby said:

Exactly and the worst part being after which you have to wait for 30 days to get unarchived???

Why? Is not like I have abandoned the idea...

Like the system was created to keep the idea section clean so there will be no dead projects... but instead creates this useless, annoying system and hoops you have to jump through to get a group up and going.

The only reason why this is a thing is pretty much just

1801935565_Bureacracylvl100-kopia.png.e2b1cd35cdce80655cdb8f3e90f774d1.png

But yeah the group system is HEAVILY biased to people who are established in the community.

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Well, seeing as I was around for when we did away with [WIP] groups. I will explain why that is no longer a thing.

This was a while ago so this might not be 100% but here are a few reasons I recall.

1. Clutter - WIP groups clutter threads, regardless if its in its own little sub section of the forums. Clutter is clutter, there should be absolutely no reason for a group not to have their shit together before posting it.

2. Members - Again regardless if you have a thread up or not, most groups that were WIP never got the requirements for members. You think that posting a WIP group would give exposure sure, but in the end it doesn't lure new members in. When the group isn't completely done, and not thought out. They will be like oh....its a WIP group meh.

3. Waste staff time - Some might know this, some might not. But the amount of wasted time on WIP groups was ridiculous. Back when I was an admin, and I am going to guess even now. It is not up to Mods or GMs to approve a group. Even from WIP to just an idea was a task. It was admins and lore masters. An when I was still in staff getting a LM and Admin together was not easy to do.

There is no automation that happens, you and the LM sit there and read the lore check the activity of the players, check their roster, check the characters, check graphics, ect. Half the time they didn't have the members so we had to archive it. This happened over....and over...and over again. Until we decide to do away with WIP pages because it was just the same as an idea, but at least we knew the idea was done. With WIP there is a lot of stuff people leave out, and we are told. Oh its still being worked on....

You have nooo idea how frustrating it is...to remind people to finish their group pages until you have to archive it. Then you are the bad guy because you didn't give more time yadadad.

-1 For me. Finish your idea then post it. Simple.

(Edit!)

Also....half of the time the OP archives the WIP because they end up losing interest or don't have people to play in that group. So again...just make it an idea..complete not WIP.

Edited by Aiko

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1 hour ago, Aiko said:

Well, seeing as I was around for when we did away with [WIP] groups. I will explain why that is no longer a thing.

This was a while ago so this might not be 100% but here are a few reasons I recall.

1. Clutter - WIP groups clutter threads, regardless if its in its own little sub section of the forums. Clutter is clutter, there should be absolutely no reason for a group not to have their shit together before posting it.

2. Members - Again regardless if you have a thread up or not, most groups that were WIP never got the requirements for members. You think that posting a WIP group would give exposure sure, but in the end it doesn't lure new members in. When the group isn't completely done, and not thought out. They will be like oh....its a WIP group meh.

3. Waste staff time - Some might know this, some might not. But the amount of wasted time on WIP groups was ridiculous. Back when I was an admin, and I am going to guess even now. It is not up to Mods or GMs to approve a group. Even from WIP to just an idea was a task. It was admins and lore masters. An when I was still in staff getting a LM and Admin together was not easy to do.

1. Still I do no understand clutter part? The entire forum is a clutter... Off-Topic 250 pages nothing to do with DayZRP... some forum games and "what is on your mind" so on...

I honestly fail to see the clutter issue as I have introduced the deleting system? Again explained in one of my earlier posts. Would be cleaner than character page section for sure...

2. That is not true. 2013 a guy made a WIP DUTY group. I checked it... it had 5 sentences of lore and copy paste logo. I took the idea from him and got another guy we made it into a successful group.  That idea was an inspiration not just some random thing to shrug off.

Also exposure time is VERY important. You cannot deny that. Like I said in one of the posts that even though I brought my group back with 30 day intervals 3 times... some people I got to know later date and talked to never saw it. And they are active players... - because not everyone sits on the forums or is involved with this community 24/7.

3. The way you guys wasted time is dumb I agree... it should have been the system suggested now instead.

 

EDIT: sent you PM of the system @Aiko

Edited by Shanoby

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1 hour ago, Aiko said:

Well, seeing as I was around for when we did away with [WIP] groups. I will explain why that is no longer a thing.

This was a while ago so this might not be 100% but here are a few reasons I recall.

1. Clutter - WIP groups clutter threads, regardless if its in its own little sub section of the forums. Clutter is clutter, there should be absolutely no reason for a group not to have their shit together before posting it.

2. Members - Again regardless if you have a thread up or not, most groups that were WIP never got the requirements for members. You think that posting a WIP group would give exposure sure, but in the end it doesn't lure new members in. When the group isn't completely done, and not thought out. They will be like oh....its a WIP group meh.

3. Waste staff time - Some might know this, some might not. But the amount of wasted time on WIP groups was ridiculous. Back when I was an admin, and I am going to guess even now. It is not up to Mods or GMs to approve a group. Even from WIP to just an idea was a task. It was admins and lore masters. An when I was still in staff getting a LM and Admin together was not easy to do.

There is no automation that happens, you and the LM sit there and read the lore check the activity of the players, check their roster, check the characters, check graphics, ect. Half the time they didn't have the members so we had to archive it. This happened over....and over...and over again. Until we decide to do away with WIP pages because it was just the same as an idea, but at least we knew the idea was done. With WIP there is a lot of stuff people leave out, and we are told. Oh its still being worked on....

You have nooo idea how frustrating it is...to remind people to finish their group pages until you have to archive it. Then you are the bad guy because you didn't give more time yadadad.

-1 For me. Finish your idea then post it. Simple.

(Edit!)

Also....half of the time the OP archives the WIP because they end up losing interest or don't have people to play in that group. So again...just make it an idea..complete not WIP.

So you are saying an entire sub forum for 'forum games' is less clutter than actual topics that progress the community in the sense of roleplay?

Personally my arguement is not against half written WIPs, its more along the lines of allowing groups the time to gain the members they need comfortably and not under pressure to gather then as quickly as possible along with being able to be given feedback on their idea and adjust it accordingly.

Sure lets all count to 500 beans before an admin posts as a forum game instead of an actual group idea that may not be as generic as some.

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I get a process could work, but you also have to keep in mind a few things. The admins and LMs still have to look over the lore, regardless of WIP. So they are up to date and know how to incorporate it.

You also have the issue of group name. If you think about it, there are many many group names. More often than not those groups don't want their names used. That or they are dead set on trying their group again. 

So with that in mind if you wanted a group with a specific name. You would have to jump though hoops to get that name. Which again would include staff time and resources that they shouldn't. I know that could happen now. But with WIPs you have to treat it the same as a group in that regard.

It's not so simple as you think, they can't just let WIPs stay in WIP forever. 

There is still a lot of work for admins and LMs even if it's a WIP. It's not a simple delete the WIP. Checking to see if someone else is a group, just playing another chara. There isn't anything simple with groups tbh.

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9 minutes ago, Aiko said:

I get a process could work, but you also have to keep in mind a few things. The admins and LMs still have to look over the lore, regardless of WIP. So they are up to date and know how to incorporate it.

You also have the issue of group name. If you think about it, there are many many group names. More often than not those groups don't want their names used. That or they are dead set on trying their group again. 

So with that in mind if you wanted a group with a specific name. You would have to jump though hoops to get that name. Which again would include staff time and resources that they shouldn't. I know that could happen now. But with WIPs you have to treat it the same as a group in that regard.

It's not so simple as you think, they can't just let WIPs stay in WIP forever. 

There is still a lot of work for admins and LMs even if it's a WIP. It's not a simple delete the WIP. Checking to see if someone else is a group, just playing another chara. There isn't anything simple with groups tbh.

But why would staff need to look over the lore in WIP section, why burden them with that if they could put that focus on Group Ideas instead, where group is posted for the actual approval?

The name taking is also down to who posted it first?

Please enlighten me.

Edited by Shanoby

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When posting a group you should have already gotten  the idea of what you wish to do with said group, if not then the group ain't ready and shouldn't be posted.

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The way group work right now is that you either have friends so you can make a group or you either don't so see you bye. If you want the place to feel more like a community let people post their ideas. Some will look at it and maybe join the group. It is correct that most of the cases it leads nowhere, but people can meet others this way, create some friends and maybe down the line try again now with more people behind.

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Would you rather be notified about your lore breaking group before putting into an idea? LMs or Admins will look away it and push it back to WIP. Frustrated they archive the idea. Blaming staff for not telling them when it was WIP. Don't tell me it won't happen, because it will sooner or later. 

Yes it depends who had it first. But with a lot of WIPs and no block on it. Then that is just another name taken. Argument to handle that has to be monitored by staff. 

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18 minutes ago, Aiko said:

Would you rather be notified about your lore breaking group before putting into an idea? LMs or Admins will look away it and push it back to WIP. Frustrated they archive the idea. Blaming staff for not telling them when it was WIP. Don't tell me it won't happen, because it will sooner or later. 

Yes it depends who had it first. But with a lot of WIPs and no block on it. Then that is just another name taken. Argument to handle that has to be monitored by staff. 

Your first point again applies to current system as well... you cannot say people do not blame staff for other reasons anyways. So I am not telling you it will not happen.

If person gets frustrated over it then he was not really serious about the idea anyways. I mean they will get frustrated even now if they post it straight to Group Ideas and get rejected.

Block on it? You mean when people start throwing in loads of ideas just to grab names?

Posting an idea to WIP could be same rules about group posting. Exception would be, it can be rough idea, not ready, still recruiting and so on... but no time limit. It is not that much different.

 

But also if they throw the idea out of WIP and delete it, apply same restriction - 30 days

Also if they want to make new WIP old one has to be deleted by adding (delete) TAG behind it.

 

1. Starting with the idea

To create a group you need to meet the following requirements:

You must have been whitelisted for at least 30 days

You may not have been a leader of another group in the last 30 days

You may not have been a member of another group in the last 7 days

Group idea may not have been previously used unless previous group owner messages staff with explicit permission

Edited by Shanoby

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What you are saying is pretty much what is happening right now in group ideas. Its just another step that doesn't need added IMO.

You should have the members for your group before posting it. That is the only issue people seem to have when posting a group up with not enough members.

There really is no use for another step in the process. That is my opinion, I am sure I can asked the other old legends to see how they feel about WIP groups. They probably will say something similar.

Still a no from me.

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9 minutes ago, Aiko said:

What you are saying is pretty much what is happening right now in group ideas. Its just another step that doesn't need added IMO.

You should have the members for your group before posting it. That is the only issue people seem to have when posting a group up with not enough members.

There really is no use for another step in the process. That is my opinion, I am sure I can asked the other old legends to see how they feel about WIP groups. They probably will say something similar.

Still a no from me.

I respect that.

Although I disagree that it is not needed, given my own examples from before and because I believe there is lot of creative potential out there. New people with new ideas and to be honest, if I was new... I would be scared off to even try if I knew nobody in this community, cause the system we have right now, is just way too harsh for its own good.

Thank you for discussion 😉

Edited by Shanoby

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I mean it always used to be that you would make a group in ideas then write (Awaiting Approval or WIP) in the title to inform staff where the group idea is in terms of being processed.

This worked so much better and due to the extra time groups would actually be worked on rather than a thread going up quick, recruiting mates then closing the group after a month or 2 simply for another group to be made by one of the other members. There are a lot of examples of that just in the last 8 months

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2 minutes ago, Voodoo said:

I mean it always used to be that you would make a group in ideas then write (Awaiting Approval or WIP) in the title to inform staff where the group idea is in terms of being processed.

This worked so much better and due to the extra time groups would actually be worked on rather than a thread going up quick, recruiting mates then closing the group after a month or 2 simply for another group to be made by one of the other members. There are a lot of examples of that just in the last 8 months

But that is where that issue lies for the staff as I understood... if these WIP and Groups Awaiting for approval were in same section, it would be considered clutter.

That is why I suggested the sub section, so staff would not hurt their eyesight.

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Just now, Shanoby said:

But that is where that issue lies for the staff as I understood... if these WIP and Groups Awaiting for approval were in same section, it would be considered clutter.

That is why I suggested the sub section, so staff would not hurt their eyesight.

Yea exactly and I don't see it being extra steps if people add to the title (Awaiting Approval) in a WIP section. Just means we move the group over to the next stage, look it over and instead of giving it 7+ days to approve we do it in say 2 days.

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