Allow [WIP] groups in the "Group Idea" Forum.

[DuquesneLR 351]

Pretty basic, allow WIP groups to post in the "Group Idea" forum.

I'll list off some Pro's and Cons that I can see.

Basic premise will be that the groups will be allowed to post their idea, marking it [WIP] to easily distinguish which groups are currently in the running for being approved, and who is still building up their various arrangements that they need before they can be considered in the running to get approved.
To finally be able to get into the running, all they'd have to do is simply get in touch with a Mod+ to have the title changed from [WIP] .... to their name.

Some basic requirements I'd have for these [WIP] groups:

- Quality like any other group page. - This means that it won't be a big block of text, but should still be formatted as any other group has done, as to ensure the quality of the thread and looks of the group.
- Basic history - Ensure that there is a basic setup for the story, as to how and why they got to where they are now and why they're trying to achieve their goal.
- Overall goal.

Things to add in this WIP phase:

- Fleshed out goals.
- Roster.
- Other miscellaneous stuff.

Pro's:
- Gets the word out there about the group.
- Feedback can be taken early and they can therefore shape into the feedback, rather than going in headstrong into the running.
- People will be able to see the idea of this group, and might be able to help by joining the roster, as that idea appealed to them.
- Admins will be able to monitor them over a longer period of time. Seeing the growth of the group gradually.
- You won't have people appearing on the roster due to the 5 man requirement only to then never have any actual RP with the group, but merely to fill the requirement (seen before)
- Allows other groups to perhaps get in touch with them, allowing to help them via IC means to grow into a spectacular group later on when they hopefully get approved.

Probably more but these are the ones I can list off the top of my head.

Con's:

- Tiny bit of extra moderation work.
- The forum might get more cluttered.

I'm sure some of you have more cons down below!

Anyhow, these are my two-cents. Added poll because of democracy.
 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Duquesne

[Alan Woods 162]

I will go with no, you either have a group set up and ready to go or you don't. Group ideas which are still WIP are not helping too much, since you don't have the assurance these groups would put in the effort to get approved. It would become a waste of time of the staff to watch over them and an extra job that isn't profitable.

It's much better the way it is right now.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Alan Woods

[neom 460]

Nope.Post the finished thing don’t be lazy simple as, if you still have a WIP group then you don’t have a group, 

If you want it for the thread to see the layout send it to a friend.-1

Edited October 2, 2019 by ne_om

[Shanoby 565]

I support this heavily, although I have already tried to suggest a solution, where staff does not need to do extra work, Rolle did not want to see this.

I came up with an idea where moderating job is none...

 

 

Even after I made him this nice picture to describe the idea:

Edited October 2, 2019 by Shanoby

[DuquesneLR 351]

Well, that could work too. Would certainly be a lot cleaner than mixing it up.

[Voodoo 1305]

I agree with @Shanoby

Have a 3 step process

1. You make the WIP idea in its own folder allowing ideas to flow and time to get members
2. It gets moved to ideas allowing the time to gain more members
3. It gets approved

So far the average life cycle of a group when made approved is roughly 1-2 months and most of the time these groups just have the same members time and again.

The current system means that someone that may have joined the community recently and has a fantastic idea for a group wont make it because they need 5 members to get a start and if they haven't been here for long enough or didn't join with a group of friends then that idea will never become a concept to atleast be given a chance to build up numbers.

 

When I joined in 2013 there was no minimum requirement of members which meant you had some fantastic ideas flowing and being allowed a chance to build momentum. SDS, CLF, RSM, 501st etc. all mod groups that were made and built up the numbers over time. It even gets people that never played a certain RP style to join the group to give it a go simply because they read over the lore and enjoy it enough to give it a chance. I never saw myself as a bandit and then I saw a certain groups backstory and art and decided to give it a go and enjoyed every minute.

[andysuter 282]

+1 from me as ive been in this situation myself with an idea but to make it clear, change 'group ideas' to proposed groups or something.

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by andysuter

[Ducky 1376]

W.I.P is nice for players that are inexperienced with making groups, or at the very least are making their first group, it allows them to present an idea, get some feedback on changes and shape it into something great.

 

I'd like to see this section return, +1.

 

Also @Duquesne did you set the poll to be anonymous? I dont remember voting on it but I dont seem to have the option, and I cant check if I already voted

[Fae 1843]

Just no.
The system is fine as it is. 

If you don't have a group ready to post, don't post it. We don't need to clutter the forums with half-assed 'WIP' groups.

[Scarlett 686]

sorry but its a -1 from me. Reason for it, is it should be the completed group in the group ideas forum not a group that hasn't been completed.

However I do agree with @Shanoby and @Voodoo create a folder that others can give ideas for and may gain interest in other members and would be good for those who are new at doing groups and then once its finished and you have an idea of the members who are interested it would get moved to ideas so I really do think that is a good idea and would get a good mix of members both new and old and may give those who usually do a neutral or good character to try something different if they like the idea that is shown, same for those who do a hostile character if they see a neutral or good group and want to try something different they get the chance to mingle and try different things.

[DuquesneLR 351]

1 hour ago, Ducky said:

W.I.P is nice for players that are inexperienced with making groups, or at the very least are making their first group, it allows them to present an idea, get some feedback on changes and shape it into something great.

 

I'd like to see this section return, +1.

 

Also @Duquesne did you set the poll to be anonymous? I dont remember voting on it but I dont seem to have the option, and I cant check if I already voted

No idea buddy. First time I've made a poll on the forums. Pretty sure i only put in the question nad answers.

 

But yeah I think making a sub-section for WIP groups is a better idea.

[DrMax 1066]

I voted no.

Don't think this is needed at all. If you want to layer it out, start a group, add graphics etc, just create a PM on the forums and send it to yourself and edit it. That is how I have done both of my groups. You can add people into the PM from your group so they can see it too. At the end of the day, I'd rather have a completed group on the forums than one that isn't. Personally, if you want to get the word out about the group, I think in game is the best way to go about doing that. If you want to look for people to join, we have a thread right here, where people say they are looking to join groups. If you want opinions on your group or you want some ideas, ask some people who have ran groups before. I suggest asking some council members too since they run groups and plus that actually gives the council something to do. I do not see the reason to add a new forum section. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by DrMax

[Phoenix 3443]

I completely support this idea. It's much easier for someone to be able to get their group name out there and get actual feedback instead of posting something in Lore and stories because lets be honest, nobody really goes on there to look at group ideas.. right?

+1 on this 100%, it definitely doesn't hurt.

[PhoenyxxRP 1008]

3 hours ago, Voodoo said:

Have a 3 step process

1. You make the WIP idea in its own folder allowing ideas to flow and time to get members
2. It gets moved to ideas allowing the time to gain more members
3. It gets approved

I do like this idea, of a three step process - however could a group that already has the requirements for a group thread to be posted just skip step 1? Reason I'm +1'ing this is that like most people have stated it gives opportunity for others to help flesh out the group thread as well as get some new members that aren't necessarily in your 'friend circle'. When I went to start Wolfpack I had three members. We were active, already calling ourselves WP ICly but we had trouble getting those other two members, a lot of people didn't want to join something they couldn't see down on 'paper'. Because we couldn't post the fully finished group thread, we had to pretty much get two people to temporarily join us so that we can post it and then the recruits started to come in. That's why I feel a WIP folder would be helpful.

Edited October 2, 2019 by PhoenyxxRP

[Ron 1989]

4 hours ago, Duquesne said:

- Gets the word out there about the group.

That can be done without a group thread at all but within the server through role play.

4 hours ago, Duquesne said:

- Feedback can be taken early and they can therefore shape into the feedback, rather than going in headstrong into the running.

Even the group thread of an official group should always be worked on / updated. Try seeing it as a developing process not as something to be done/ finished with.

4 hours ago, Duquesne said:

- People will be able to see the idea of this group, and might be able to help by joining the roster, as that idea appealed to them.

People are able to see group idea - documents in a google doc which can be shared with a group of ppl - if not this way, there have been people asking opinions discussion threads.

4 hours ago, Duquesne said:

- Admins will be able to monitor them over a longer period of time. Seeing the growth of the group gradually.

You can always send your work in a dm to staff and ask someones opinion before posting a thread. Watching a group over a longer period of time should especially count for official groups since we are working with short & long time / smart goals.

4 hours ago, Duquesne said:

- You won't have people appearing on the roster due to the 5 man requirement only to then never have any actual RP with the group, but merely to fill the requirement (seen before)

I am not sure about this one. Staff checks activity of individual group members. You can be part of a group but rp with other people, there is nothing to be said against that. If you just fill up the roster but dont play, staff will eventually call you out for that. There has to be a player base to start form as a group requirement. WIth 5 you still get the chance to see ppl of your group ig if some others are offline.

4 hours ago, Duquesne said:

- Allows other groups to perhaps get in touch with them, allowing to help them via IC means to grow into a spectacular group later on when they hopefully get approved.

If a story line together with another group, helps your own group to grow/ develop that can be written down in the lore of a group thread afterwards. But all in all this should not be connected to a group thread but to ig actions, imo.

-1. 

Staff should put some extra work elsewhere & not into work that can easily be done by community members working together.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Ron

[Basko 307]

Good suggestion, but I think it is good as is. Alot of arguments have already been posted so I will just give a personal advice for WIP groups. If you are working on a group idea and want to show the format and layout to others without having to post the final idea, you can make the post in a personal message and send it to the people you want feedback from. This way you can get a final version in group ideas that already has had improvements from the initial feedback.

[Shanoby 565]

People who are against this, must have no idea how hard is to get people to join your idea.

After I made my groups and multiple times after idea got archived, I eventually showed it to some people after months later and they had not even seen the idea, which proves - not enough TIME for exposure.

I do not understand how any reasonable person expects newcomers with no connections setup their groups?

 

The whole "looking for a group" thread is dumbest solution. I do not understand why that even exists tbh.

If you are looking for a group - check Group section and apply or go in game meet people. - right?

 

Also in game recruiting is not valid, for many reasons, WHEN THE GROUP IS NEW !

Takes too much time - remember you have 7 days to get all 5 members.

People you meet are either in the group or do not fit in with said characters and walk off.

Some ideas a very specific which need certain characters, you need OOC way to deal with that. NOT IC.

You cannot honestly expect a person to go around and ask: "Hey, how you doing. See I am a cannibal and I want to eat people but I would like to have cannibal friends to eat people together, so would you be interested in joining?" It does not even compute.

 

Im getting a bit heated here, cause I cannot believe I even have to explain some of this.

 

18 hours ago, Ron said:

-1. 

Staff should put some extra work elsewhere & not into work that can easily be done by community members working together.

 

Please explain me how does staff have to put some extra work into it?

Also before you do, I would refer you back to my old post, which explains how staff would not need to do "extra" work:

 

Work In Progress - Person can work on his/her idea, get feedback, recruit. Once he/she feels it is ready, he/she adds [delete] behind threads title... all that staff has to do, is delete the ones with tag behind it.

Group Ideas - same rules apply to get approved, once the author of the thread re-posts it from the "Work In Progress" to here.

Group Archive -

 

So staff would only need to go to that thread once a week or less and delete marked threads, is it really that hard?

Edited October 3, 2019 by Shanoby

[Jamie 2160]

What difference does it make to have a finished group thread and a half finished group thread? You may as well finish the thread and make it complete, then post it. It's going to attract the same attention whether it's WIP or not. If you're looking for members, message people OOC and see if they're interested. I voted no on the poll. 

[Shanoby 565]

16 minutes ago, Jamie said:

What difference does it make to have a finished group thread and a half finished group thread? You may as well finish the thread and make it complete, then post it. It's going to attract the same attention whether it's WIP or not. If you're looking for members, message people OOC and see if they're interested. I voted no on the poll. 

I am sad you post your thoughts without even reading...

Cause most of your questions you setup here, were answered in my previous reply, but ok.

Also once someone adds "SPAM ALL USERS WITH GROUP INVITE" button no thanks on messaging people one by one.

What would also guarantee me, that in that first week I post it, all the people see my PM and reply to it in 7 days?

Edited October 3, 2019 by Shanoby

[Ryan Shepherd 2053]

Honestly have no idea why there needs to be posts longer than the book of kells disputing whether WIP group ideas should be allowed or not..

Simple answer, yes it should be okay.

How are people supposed to achieve a minimum player count of 5 people if they are not allowed to advertise their group? Pming people to join your group isn't many peoples style.

We have other countless pointless threads all across the forum, why not WIP.

[Rover 570]

8 minutes ago, Ryan Shepherd said:

How are people supposed to achieve a minimum player count of 5 people if they are not allowed to advertise their group? Pming people to join your group isn't many peoples style.

 

Just to comment on this specifically. You do not need 5 people to create a Group Idea, you only need 5 people to get approved.

 

I voted no as well. Its not much extra effort to produce a completed page to put in the group idea section as opposed to a skeleton page. Once you have the page completed, you can start trying to recruit your 5 needed to get approved.

[Shanoby 565]

The funny thing is, stepping back for a moment I realized, I forgot something...

We could also avoid WIP in my books as long as time limit is removed. - 7 DAYS

That is where the issue lies for me, but also for the staff, is it not... and that is why we cannot remove it?

 

To my knowledge this is a "fail safe" that was created so staff would not have to check on those threads one by one and make sure the ideas are still being worked on.

But that is why WIP section would be good. Cause you would not need to check it all the time. But once a week or a month pop in and delete threads marked DELETE.

 

Everyone happy

Edited October 3, 2019 by Shanoby

[PhoenyxxRP 1008]

33 minutes ago, Rover said:

 

Just to comment on this specifically. You do not need 5 people to create a Group Idea, you only need 5 people to get approved.

Since when? Ive seen any groups under 5 players immediately get closed and archived until they get 5 players, meaning they cant post in the thread nor have others post for feedback, etc. About the group. 

[AndreyQ 2282]

1 minute ago, PhoenyxxRP said:

Since when? Ive seen any groups under 5 players immediately get closed and archived until they get 5 players, meaning they cant post in the thread nor have others post for feedback, etc. About the group. 

not sure but I think they have 1 week to get to 5, although I don't think that's something set in stone and it might depend on who checks the group thread

[Rover 570]

1 minute ago, PhoenyxxRP said:

Since when? Ive seen any groups under 5 players immediately get closed and archived until they get 5 players, meaning they cant post in the thread nor have others post for feedback, etc. About the group. 

 

Based on the group guide here, I don't believe that is how it should be handled.

The below is the quote about what is required to start a group.

Quote

To create a group you need to meet the following requirements:

You must have been whitelisted for at least 30 days

You may not have been a leader of another group in the last 30 days

You may not have been a member of another group in the last 7 days

Group idea may not have been previously used unless previous group owner messages staff with explicit permission

 

The approval requirements list you need 5 members to get approved, but I see nothing in there about shutting a group down immediately if they don't have 5 members. 

The information on that page even suggests using the period after creating the group to get your 5 members.