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Jannik

(rule change) Runs in to active fire fighting

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I have of lately seen many use the rules as a shield. 

but there is one thing that I have been thinking about. and that's when people runs into a firefight, even though they know there is a firefight, I would be hit with invalid firefight kos, if I shoot and kill the person. why not hit him with a NVFL?

Example 1.

Spoiler

Your friends have been robbed and a firefight between the 2 groups has broken out (this is in vybor). A player who is not part of the fighting or the groups, is in kapanino. he can hear that there are alot of shots and that it is probably a firefight, but he decides to run to vybor, when he comes to vybor he can see dead players. now he chooses to run to one of the bodies to see if there's anything interesting that he can take. he gets shot and dies. (miss id ban)  

my suggestion is that. 

under NVFL rule is added that if you deliberately run into an active firefight can be seen as NVFL.

Example 2.

Spoiler

You are in a firefight with another group. your friends have told you that some of the enemies has been picked up by a car, in the middle of the firefight. you spot the car and shoots, you hit and kills the driver of the car.  later you will receive a message which states that the driver was not part of the group that you fought against. and bamm invalid firefight kos

 

 

Example 3.

Spoiler

You and your group are in a fight against a group sitting in a bass, One of your friends hears that the enemy has called for reinforcements, he even hears what color armband they are wearing. the reinforcements came. and you can now see them running around looking for you and your friends, you shoot one of them as he comes running towards you with his weapons out (no initiation from the reinforcements yet) . and bamm invalid firefight kos 

my suggestion is that under Hostilities rules  is added that:

That if you or your group deliberately helps another group in a firefight, that the other group automatically gets defender rights on you and your group. ( This is because you are already a threat to their group)

 

I think there are some gaps in the rules when it comes to situations like which I have briefly described above. for example in Example 3, Should I just stand there, waiting to get taken or killed? In all the examples above are there some one or a group thats runs in to an active firefight. personally, I think firefights can be stressful, so it may be difficult to keep track of a random person who by intent runs into an active firefight . 

what do you think?? 

ps. I apologize for the bad English

 

Edited by Jannik

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+100. It’s really hard (especially with approved groups who don’t wear armbands) to determine who is the target in long standing firefights including many people. If people intentionally run to the scene of a firefight knowing they “can’t” get shot and they get killed it shouldn’t be on the person who shot them. 

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7 minutes ago, Jannik said:

I have of lately seen many use the rules as a shield. 

but there is one thing that I have been thinking about. and that's when people runs into a firefight, even though they know there is a firefight, I would be hit with invalid firefight kos, if I shoot and kill the person. why not hit him with a NVFL?

Example 1.

  Hide contents

Your friends have been robbed and a firefight between the 2 groups has broken out (this is in vybor). A player who is not part of the fighting or the groups, is in kapanino. he can hear that there are alot of shots and that it is probably a firefight, but he decides to run to vybor, when he comes to vybor he can see dead players. now he chooses to run to one of the bodies to see if there's anything interesting that he can take. he gets shot and dies. (miss id ban)  

my suggestion is that. 

under NVFL rule is added that if you deliberately run into an active firefight can be seen as NVFL.

Quote

3.2 Your character must behave realistically and appropriately to the different situations you participate in, keeping the current world situation and context of post-apocalyptic world in mind. Do not act in a way that indicates no value for your characters life and survival. For example, attempting to kill people when heavily outnumbered, excessively talking back or insulting someone when taken hostage, or knowingly running into an area of active hostile engagement when not involved in the fight. Characters found guilty of breaking this rule will be permanently marked as dead.

Its my understanding this is already clear. If someone runs into an active firefight and tries to loot bodies, and gets killed, I don't believe we punish. It is however ALWAYS contextual, as some fire fights draw on for very long times and have periods of silence; If someone just logged in and has no honest idea there is anything going on and you gas them, thats on you. Its not like they could know. You are responsible for every bullet you fire. Whenever you are in doubt, re-initiate to be sure, or risk the consequences.

 

Quote

Example 2.

  Hide contents

You are in a firefight with another group. your friends have told you that some of the enemies has been picked up by a car, in the middle of the firefight. you spot the car and shoots, you hit and kills the driver of the car.  later you will receive a message which states that the driver was not part of the group that you fought against. and bamm invalid firefight kos

If you are working alongside, within, and helping a group hostile to the firefight, odds are it will be seen as Ruleplay, and the shooter will not be punished. Situation is always dependent, like for example did the driver know that they were doing this? These are contextual things that have to be handled within the context of the conflict.

 

 

Quote

Example 3.

  Hide contents

You and your group are in a fight against a group sitting in a bass, One of your friends hears that the enemy has called for reinforcements, he even hears what color armband they are wearing. the reinforcements came. and you can now see them running around looking for you and your friends, you shoot one of them as he comes running towards you with his weapons out (no initiation from the reinforcements yet) . and bamm invalid firefight kos 

 

Yes. That is a KOS. 

Reinforcements coming to initiate on you, even if you know they are going to initiate on you, are not people you can just KOS. Re-initiate on them first and gain control of the situation. 

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11 minutes ago, Rover said:

 

If you are working alongside, within, and helping a group hostile to the firefight, odds are it will be seen as Ruleplay, and the shooter will not be punished. Situation is always dependent, like for example did the driver know that they were doing this? These are contextual things that have to be handled within the context of the conflict. 

Example 2 happened not so long ago where it was @JimRP that was the the driver and i shot and killed him  he told me that I had broken the rules. (Jim and i talked it out ) but from what I understand from what you says is that jimrp Ruleplayed 

(I'm not pointing fingers here) 

Edited by Jannik

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Just now, Jannik said:

Example 2 happened not so long ago where it was @JimRP that was the the driver and i shot and killed him  he told me that I had broken the rules. (Jim and i talked it out ) but from what I understand from what you says is that jimrp Ruleplayed 

This is why I said context is important. I'm going to restate what you put in the example:

 

You witness enemies get picked up in a car during an active firefight, and open fire on the car and kill the driver. The driver was not a part of the approved group the enemies were a part of, or in other words you had no kill rights on the driver. If the driver attempted to report you for KOS'ing him because they are hiding behind the rules of you not having rights (Despite them assisting the others in a firefight) I would very likely consider that ruleplay, and find you not guilty. 

 

Talking it out with players are what we always recommend, and I'm sure were I in the same boat I'd caution you that you didn't have rights on me and to be careful. But I'd never open a report about it, as I know what I was doing was putting a target on me.

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6 minutes ago, Rover said:

 

okay i understand 

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Now that we have the group armbands, why don't approved group's wear them and have to continue wearing them if they wish to run into firefights. They can already call in an army to kill you that can log in so small things like that would be nice.

Edited by Eagle

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1 minute ago, Eagle said:

Now that we have the group armbands, why don't approved group's wear them and have to continue wearing them if they wish to go into firefights they already can call in an army to kill you that can log in so small things like that would be nice.

I agree with you I think groups should have armbands on, then it would be difficult to miss id 

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Just now, Jannik said:

I agree with you I think groups should have armbands on, then it would be difficult to miss id 

It makes sense right? Dynamics can't get involved if they have departed from there friends meaning there would only be a handfull of randoms that can actually get involved but a approved group of 20 + can have them all log in whenever shoot you while there rights exist and can do so whenever wherever.

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  • People knowingly running into a FF in order to loot bodies or be dumb should be considered NVFL. In fact, multiple people got hit with NVFL in the past for running into FFs.
     
  • People knowingly running into a FF in order to help one of the parties and then report it because no one initiated yet it's ruleplay.

Basically don't run into FFs then get surprised when you get shot. Don't wanna die? Leave.

Edited by AndreyQ

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I mean i killed a member of Chapter 2 for simply looting my boys' body mid fight, his choice. Somebody runs into a fight it is difficult to prove he 100% knew the firefight was going on w/o a POV from his end. NVFL always needs to take into account what the person was thinking behind their action.

Also huge -1 to forced arm bands. I should not have to identify as a group so somebody else always knows IF to shoot me or not. Even then, this shit has a cooldown timer on it? Am i suddenly going to not be able to take part in a fight because i lost my arm band or couldn't spawn in a new one? Sounds dumb af to me. 

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13 minutes ago, APositivePara said:

I mean i killed a member of Chapter 2 for simply looting my boys' body mid fight, his choice. Somebody runs into a fight it is difficult to prove he 100% knew the firefight was going on w/o a POV from his end. NVFL always needs to take into account what the person was thinking behind their action.

Also huge -1 to forced arm bands. I should not have to identify as a group so somebody else always knows IF to shoot me or not. Even then, this shit has a cooldown timer on it? Am i suddenly going to not be able to take part in a fight because i lost my arm band or couldn't spawn in a new one? Sounds dumb af to me. 

Remove the ability then to log into a fight and go hunting..

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1 minute ago, Eagle said:

Remove the ability then to log into a fight and go hunting..

I mean i'm of the opinion if you log in you don't have rights, and have to actually be in the server at the point of initiation to gain rights but that's my 2 cents.

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I believe the rules already cover this in section 3.2: "Do not act in a way that indicates no value for your characters life and survival... or knowingly running into an area of active hostile engagement when not involved in the fight."

 

If a person were to create a report after dying from knowingly running into an area with an active firefight, and it can be proven that they were aware that there was an active firefight, I say slap them with NVFL under the current rule. I do not see a need to change the rule.

If people run into an active firefight in order to get involved (e.g. they are called in by one party as reinforcements) then they know what they are getting into and should expect to die at any moment even though technically they might not have any active rights on them. If they were to create a report after getting rekt in this situation I would call it ruleplay.

 

 

Also, a big no to forced group armbands. What your character wears should be your choice. I do not want people running up to me and being like "Oh, nice armband. You must be in the vultures, right? I've seen that pattern in the item shop."

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I think it is covered pretty good in the rules. Value the life of your character (for the person running around) and make sure to identify your target (for the party of an active fire fight). 

19 hours ago, Jannik said:

I agree with you I think groups should have armbands on, then it would be difficult to miss id 

For the armband idea ...-1.  Role play wise it does not make any fucking sense. " Oh an armband , I should wear it in a fight so people know which team I am part of". This is not a paintball match / team death match server. 

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On 9/30/2019 at 4:23 PM, Jannik said:

I have of lately seen many use the rules as a shield. 

but there is one thing that I have been thinking about. and that's when people runs into a firefight, even though they know there is a firefight, I would be hit with invalid firefight kos, if I shoot and kill the person. why not hit him with a NVFL

This is something that occurred between our groups quite recently. If you'd ended up killing me I wouldn't have been upset cause I knew the risks of running into the fight to help out. Its a bitch move to report if you knew there was a fight going on IMO.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, APositiveElmo said:

This is something that occurred between our groups quite recently. If you'd ended up killing me I wouldn't have been upset cause I knew the risks of running into the fight to help out. Its a bitch move to report if you knew there was a fight going on IMO.

I completely agree with what you're saying, but given the rules as the way they are now, someone could report and the accused could get hit with invalid kill. It could go either ruleplay against OP or invalid kill against the accused.

Edited by ItsChocolateMan

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4 minutes ago, ItsChocolateMan said:

I completely agree with what you're saying, but given the rules as the way they are now, someone could report and the accused could get hit with invalid kill. It could go either ruleplay against OP or invalid kill against the accused.

tbh it should just be like in the old days where if you ran in looking for a fight and reported when you died, you get slapped for NVFL.

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This report I was involved in shines a little bit of hope. Even though OP did not hear the initiation, he knew one had happened and showed a hostile action, which would have led to me being not guilty in shooting him. It is slightly different than the aforementioned scenarios, but does show that staff does take into consideration the entire situation.  

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Ron said:

 

For the armband idea ...-1.  Role play wise it does not make any fucking sense. " Oh an armband , I should wear it in a fight so people know which team I am part of". This is not a paintball match / team death match server. 

i understand what you mean Ron. but it also does not make sense that people are risking their characters life when they run into a firefight. who would do it in real life 🙂 not me. as you said ¨This is not a paintball match / team death match server.¨ 

the reason I started this thread is because I see more and more stupid people that use the rules as a shield in these kinds of situations, and then reports someone for KOS. Fortunately, they are closed after a conversation between people who are involved 🙂

 

Edited by Jannik

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