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Crimson_Tiger

Perma-DEATH

Perma-DEATH  

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This all works in theory but in practice it never does. 

I've played in other communities that had Perma-Death as a rule and it did not work at all, storylines were ended abruptly and never got far at all. It became a whole lot of introducing yourself again and again. This should not be tried here and i'm glad that the community still is heavily opposed to the idea of a Perma-Death rule

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16 minutes ago, NozzyRP said:

This all works in theory but in practice it never does. 

I've played in other communities that had Perma-Death as a rule and it did not work at all, storylines were ended abruptly and never got far at all. It became a whole lot of introducing yourself again and again. This should not be tried here and i'm glad that the community still is heavily opposed to the idea of a Perma-Death rule

Having read this, and being on the PK side of the fence i can Nozzys take on it makes sense. I guess what we need is not PK but a means of giving characters consequence to mak ethem consider their actions more carefully, rather than the invincible superheroes we currently are

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Then let's discuss methods on assuring there are consequences to people's actions. I get it that we can't force people to PK but if you go around talking shit and getting executed for it and this happens many times over and you still go to cause trouble or seek revenge and not obey the New Life Rule, then there comes a point, you should be forced to PK. But I'm talking for those rare circumstances. I knew a player that would get executed every couple of weeks and they would come back and shit talk about a group and kept going around causing trouble and surviving beheading, firing lines, and being stabbings. And that character is STILL alive. 

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Most executions have little to do with a character’s past hostile actions.  Most executions are hostage related:

“I’m sorry, I told you you repeatedly to shut up and you just said, “Okay”.  So, now I’m going to put a bullet in your pretty little head.  Time to go to sleep.  Bye, bye.”  *A loud bang cuts through the air*

”Your approved group refuses to negotiate, so, even though you’ve been a rather pleasant hostage and I really don’t want to do this . . .”  *A loud bang cuts through the air*. 

“Your approved group refuses to stop firing at us . . . Blame them not me.”  *A loud bang cuts through the air* 

“Put your hands up or you’re dead!”  *As the panicked victim takes two seconds too long to comply, a loud bang cuts through the air*

If people were executed only for past hostile actions, then I wouldn’t be against forced PK.  But, the current rules allow all of the above plus more.  

(Yes, I exaggerated, but, only a little for emphasis.)  

Edited by Mia

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3 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

Then let's discuss methods on assuring there are consequences to people's actions. I get it that we can't force people to PK but if you go around talking shit and getting executed for it and this happens many times over and you still go to cause trouble or seek revenge and not obey the New Life Rule, then there comes a point, you should be forced to PK. But I'm talking for those rare circumstances. I knew a player that would get executed every couple of weeks and they would come back and shit talk about a group and kept going around causing trouble and surviving beheading, firing lines, and being stabbings. And that character is STILL alive. 

If someone is talking shit to you in a hostage situation and you kill them for it, report them for NVFL. That is already an existing rule that is in place for sort of this exact situation.

You are not valuing your life if you are shit talking someone that has you at barrels end.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Mia said:

snip

These aren't exaggerations, not from my experience at least. 😛

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i think the point Crimson was making was that shit talking is fine, the person gets executed etc but then some time later (within the rules) the same person is back shit talking again. Its like they never even got executed. It drips down to minor things like perma scaring too but theres no way to police that.

Its verging on BadRp but im not sure how that could be proven. PK'ng would, but thats a bit extreme as we are discussing 🙂

 

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No, people will exploit it. I would be up for something like the following,

Each character gets 5 lives. Once they die 5 times they're dead forever, but only the following can contribute to the permadeath of a character.

  • Starvation/Dehydration
  • Being killed by the infected
  • Falling to your death
  • Bleeding to death
  • Illness
  • Being killed by another player. (This player can only contribute 1 kill to the 5)
  • Being killed by another group. (This group can only contribute to 1 kill to the 5)

If the same player keeps killing you (potentially abusing this) it won't actually contribute towards your characters permadeath, same with the group. If the same group but a different person within the group kills you, it will not contribute towards your character permadeath, this is just a very basic idea. You could add a cool down timer as well, for example:

  • If you die and it contributes to 1 of the 5 deaths your character can have, a 1 week cool down timer will begin meaning you can die as many times as you want in that week and won't need to worry about it being abused.

That would give you at the very least a 5 week guarantee for each character, you could even raise the number of deaths to 7 or even 10, then guaranteeing more weeks depending on the number. There is always rule/guidelines you can input to stop it being abused. I honestly feel this would make the RP on the server better. Also with some sort of introduction of a rule like this, then you can as well add rules to a character page. That they have to be very detailed, and have a lot of effort involved in the making of them and even have them approved before you can play the character. This again will could and would stop people from making throwaway characters.

There is a lot more cons in this for hostile RP'ers than there is for friendly, if you play a friendly character then there wouldn't be much to fear here, if you complied to an initiation then you would be fine, and it would cause hostile RP'ers to be a lot more carefull in there plans and thought process. You could even tweak the kill rights rule a little to help support the more friendly/hero characters, like exetending it to a couple of days or even a week. This would cause Hostile Roleplayers to be even more thoughtful and careful when it comes to robbing and initiating on people. I think with the implementation of all of this and maybe more could really improve the RP in general, especially the hostile RP and also change the dynamics of the server in general when it comes to RP, adding a lot more fear to death IG. Camps that grow food and have clean water would then be very useful and more impactful in the server, just my thoughts.

Edited by Craig

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Nah I am good. I think we already have enough stress between members. We don't need more stress that would definitely come with those kind of rules.

Didn't work on other servers, wouldn't work here either. To 100% sure of it. 

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6 minutes ago, Craig said:

---Snip---

 

I like the premise of this idea on its face. There are some issues with it (Infected can be /very/ buggy, and I don't want staff resources spent trying to police whether a kill was valid or not towards the list for example), but I like the overall idea of having a limited number of kicks at the can before the character is dead. Its the most reasonable suggestion I've seen that includes an actual fix to this problem.

 

That being said, I'm still against anything that permakills a character against the players choice. But the above idea is quite reasonable and could do with a looking into.

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For an execution, I have no problem with. It makes complete sense.

Everything else wouldn't work if you ask me.

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Just now, Hebirura said:

For an execution, I have no problem with. It makes complete sense.

Everything else wouldn't work if you ask me.

 

The issue is this:

 

You get execution rights for someone killing your ally in a firefight. However, the person that did the killing doesn't.

What will happen is Group A attacks and wipes Group B.

Group B can now try and take any Group A member hostage and then execute them, despite 'dying' themselves, and making it permenent on the member of Group A.

Now Group A can retaliate and do the same.

Everyone knows that getting taken hostage means execution and dying forever, so no one complies and always goes out shooting. Better to NVFL and get banned while having a chance at shooting your way out of it, then to get taken hostage and know you are getting executed and story ended.

 

That is my outlook on why it won't work. It will just exacerbate the issue and create even more OOC animosity as no one is happy when someone else ends their story arc.

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2 minutes ago, Rover said:

You get execution rights for someone killing your ally in a firefight. However, the person that did the killing doesn't.

What will happen is Group A attacks and wipes Group B.

Group B can now try and take any Group A member hostage and then execute them, despite 'dying' themselves, and making it permenent on the member of Group A.

Now Group A can retaliate and do the same.

Everyone knows that getting taken hostage means execution and dying forever, so no one complies and always goes out shooting. Better to NVFL and get banned while having a chance at shooting your way out of it, then to get taken hostage and know you are getting executed and story ended.

That is my outlook on why it won't work. It will just exacerbate the issue and create even more OOC animosity as no one is happy when someone else ends their story arc.

I've always been a fan of making execution rights far harder to get like they were before. If we were to have the two changes together, an execution can actually mean something. You are looking at execution rights as this very simple thing to obtain whereas before it was very different. Sure you could get it for shooting a groups leader, but a firefight, no.

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Just now, Hebirura said:

I've always been a fan of making execution rights far harder to get like they were before. If we were to have the two changes together, an execution can actually mean something. You are looking at execution rights as this very simple thing to obtain whereas before it was very different. Sure you could get it for shooting a groups leader, but a firefight, no.

 

If execution rights were changed to make harder to get, I might be more inclined to get behind the idea, but they'd need to be exceedingly hard to get so people can't abuse it.

Currently, execution rights are not that hard to get, especially for groups that routinely engage in hostilities with one another.

4.6 covers them, with the most obvious and 'easiest' one to obtain being your hostage being involved in or participating in the death of your ally. (IE: Killed them in a gun fight)

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1 minute ago, Rover said:

-snip-

Thanks, I do believe this could be a step in the right direction. I have thought about bugs, just general IG bugs and of course the infected. Like some rules already, you'd just have to hope that the player is mature enough to tell the truth in certain circumstances, "It wasn't a bug, infected got me!" or "Invisible Zombie killed me" blah blah. I have thought about this in more detail, about how staff could potentially make this work on there side as well. I do believe something needs to change, people keep wanting change but never come up with ideas to change things, like a lore wipe for example. They'll cry out about how it won't change anything but then a week later in another thread they will cry about something needing to change because things are boring or whatever. I think you and the rest of staff should just start implementing stuff, like the idea above for example. As parts of the community do want change in some way or another, but don't seem to want to explore/try things out, and like I said go back to moaning about things being boring and stale. Lets try something new!!!!

The whole permadeath against the players will I believe is not a valid point, because there is a choice, an IC choice. We all say to keep IC, IC and keep OOC, OOC. Keep them seperate right? Then if you make an IC choice that leads to your death then thats the choice you made. There is a choice here, no one could contribute to your characters death count unless you give them a reason to. There needs to be consequences for actions IG, players playing friendly characters would be just fine and players playing hostile characters know the consequences of playing them.

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Looking at the feedback/comments its clear we have two camps of opinion.

  • Those that do not want PK as it will get abused
  • Those that want some form of consequence to stop people acting invincible

Surely there’s a way to deal with the latter while keeping the majority that is the former  agreeable to? Craigs idea is the best yet

 

Edited by andysuter

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1 minute ago, andysuter said:

-snip-

I definitely think a proper discussion has to be had about what we can do to make things more interesting around here, mainly this discussion should be within the staff team after asking for thoughts and ideas from the community, people simply dismissing anything and everything because they don't like the idea (and not suggesting any of there own) or it doesn't suit them won't get us anywhere. What we have right now can be what we have until whenever all of this comes to an end or we can try to change it for the better.

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2 hours ago, Mia said:

You're correct, we cannot control every aspect of our character's life.  But, we do get to control when our character permanently dies.  Don't force PK on the majority because of the actions of the minority.

 

 

If your character acts in a manner that warrants death for her consequences, are you going to cross your arms when you are eventually caught?

 

Don't you think that's selfish?

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Ah yes, the "forced permadeath" thread. 

The basic idea of roleplay is to have a character you can progress with. If I am continuously making characters because I want to play a hostile character who fights other people, my time here would not have lasted long. 

I believe that perma rights on a character should always be the choice of the community member. He chooses whom to give permanent execution rights to. If that person is not being responsible, and is keeping his character alive after multiple torture sessions and executions , that is on him, not on you. 

 

Edited by King

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Oh god this again.

Absolutely not.
I've died in pointless gunfights before, and if THAT was the end of my char forcibly I'd be PISSED.
My hostile char has died in gunfights countless times because I suck at them, how am I supposed to progress my character if I have to kill them off and make a new one every time I die?

They're my characters, and I will decide when their story is over.

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1 hour ago, andysuter said:

Looking at the feedback/comments its clear we have two camps of opinion.

  • Those that do not want PK as it will get abused
  • Those that want some form of consequence to stop people acting invincible

Surely there’s a way to deal with the latter while keeping the majority that is the former  agreeable to? Craigs idea is the best yet

 

I think this would be a better point of discussion instead of the possibility of forced perma-deaths, as forced PK will never be accepted within this community. However, trying to solve this might be harder than you think, because the biggest downside of a execution (or any death at all) is what happens according to this rule;

"3.4. When your character dies you lose all memories from the situation that lead to your death."

This means that a execution basically voids the intended goal, as the character no longer remembers being executed and thusly continues acting the way he does before he was executed. In fact, I think this rule in general causes a lot of the frustration that people might feel about the fact that people continue to talk shit when they're encountered the next day or when people show up with no wounds or visible damage done by having been gunned down. The fact that your character forgets the situation upon death leaves it well within the rights of the player to act like nothing ever happened.

While a portion of players still opt to roleplay out injuries or choose to have a consequence of sorts (which, hilariously, is against the rules if you take them without any form of leniency), there's also a portion of players that chose not to.

Maybe we should look at the possibility of adjusting this to a degree? Just a thought.

Edited by Kenyi

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firefights should not be a perma kill but deaths directly resulting from that characters actions should result in a perma death.

 

sucks that those people don’t have the integrity to do so, so the whole “MY CHARACTER..... MY DEATH!” will never change.

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9 hours ago, Ducky said:

Every execution should result in a PK

This I can get behind. Executions should always result in PK, otherwise they are useless.

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Not everyone is the main character of the story, storylines progress with death, get over it and die every once in a while instead of having an edgy character be alive for years despite getting captured and executed many times.

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6 hours ago, Ducky said:

If your character acts in a manner that warrants death for her consequences, are you going to cross your arms when you are eventually caught?

 

Don't you think that's selfish?

I wish I could make a character that could act in a manner that would warrant her death.  But, it seems all I can make are the boring Girl Scout types.  (No Girl Scout shade intended.)  

But honestly, if one of my characters ever does something truly evil, I’ll gladly let her pay the ultimate price. But, I won’t force that price on anyone else.  Nor do I want it forced on me.

If that makes me selfish, then I guess I’m selfish.

 

Edited by Mia

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Since mostly everything else was already discussed upon I will add this. I honestly think in situations where someone has execution rights & they ask, "perms to PK?" and the OP says no.. Then don't just still kill them simply because you have rights to, turn it into something else!! Make RP out of it! I do agree that some people have shit talked their way into a LOT of executions & its pretty awkward to see them always come back (and they almost NEVER RP out injuries at least). But since PKing is your own personal choice and we all understand that.. then start a trend of instead of still just killing the person because you can, start making demands. Start making people pay for their life, turn someone into your "slave" for an hour, etc etc. Sometimes I think the awkwardness is also caused by the people executing, if someone doesn't give you perms to PK them & you still kill them knowing they'll be back.. Doesn't it somewhat fall onto you partially as well? The server isn't made for people to just always die, its about INTERACTIONS. So instead of people always going straight for the kill, the perma kill, etc. Start making demands, & making them pay for their life in return for your mercy. Just some thoughts...

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