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Apollo

Current State of Rule(s)

Current state of Rules  

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Hello it is I, community roleplayer Apollo

As of recent times, there has been so much confusion surrounding the current state of the rules. With the rules being left open-ended leaving people to interpret what they mean which has led to some confusion and interesting verdicts over the past months. 

I have spoken to a lot of people, staff members included and asked for their opinions on the current set of rules we have, most of the answers sound something like this "the rules are too loose at the moment" or "the rules are too easy to bend to your will" It goes on, but I remember a while ago a great set of rules that everyone knew very well. The rules had examples, they would be very well explained and you would be able to understand what is allowed and what is not, not this oh it might be allowed if the staff member that's handling the report views it as this or something else. 

I believe it's time for a new rulepage, well not really new but maybe just get rid of the current rules because they have proven to cause more problems than anything, you shouldn't have rules against furthering your roleplay we should be able to know what is allowed and what is not allowed right when we get whitelisted, not have arguments with the community being split because everyone interprets the rules their own way.

If you don't think the rules should be re-worked and left in their current state please let me know why and please no one flame each other in this thread.

thanks

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Would be nice but doubt it will happen. No one knows what the fuck is going on with the rules, what is a rule break and what is not anymore. It's all a big mess.

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1 minute ago, AndreyQ said:

Would be nice but doubt it will happen. No one knows what the fuck is going on with the rules, what is a rule break and what is not anymore. It's all a big mess.

It wasnt to long ago when saviors were around where people would initiate from behind walls and everything was fine. It's this staff team. 

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I feel like things are just made up on the spot by whatever GM/Admin who handles the report.
Would be nice if it was clear and unambiguous.

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current rules are weird and with how rules change from report based on what staff handles the report its weird.

 

Rules needs to be re made or changed rules makes 0% sense atm

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The rules have always been loose and ambiguous at the best of times, there were 100 different ways to avoid and people got banned for stuff they weren't guilty of cause both the staff and player had missed a nuance or addition section

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I agree that there is a massive gray area with the rules. I havn't been apart of this community long enough to know the old rules but I can see the issues.

I disagree that they need to be more organic in the sense that there need to be less rules as some of the rules make more types of roleplaying achievable. If there were less rules for attackers to follow than obviously there would be more reason to attack and of course players would choose to RP less as anyone but soldiers and grunts.

If there were less rules and everyone stepped up the role play and quality of game play in place of the rules it would make sense. However there are always players who choose to bend or break the rules.

My suggestion is,

1. Work on the gray area potentially create a more organic system in the process

2. set precedent and try to follow it in-line with the rules. It must be mentioned that there will always be room for debate and speculation on reports regardless of precedent

3. Much harsher punishments

If you want a system that allows you to follow less rules, it should go without saying that the punishments should be several times worse than they are. While there are a decent amount of rules as is, the punishments are often short bans and warning points that go away after a month. If you create a more organic system, but encourage players to strongly avoid breaking rules (Due to the harsh resulting punishments) you'll create a system where the RP will hopefully be better aswell as less players bending rules. Perhaps more rule breaks need to result in permanent points or appeals need to be handled in a stricter fashion. While a lot of people complain about the rules and what not, most of them are slap on the wrists. So it kind of evens out IMO

 

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Overall the "soul" of rules is right, but some aspects are poorly written, in my opinion.

Just as an example, right under the title "DayZRP rules" it says: "Last edit: 2019-07-15", which is a bit wrong, and, in my opinion, it shows little care.

Moreover, the rules don't use the vocabulary of that our community uses. Two examples of this are:

1) The concept of "initiation" is not defined in the rules. There is something about "hostile actions", but nothing about initiations.

2) Also, the concept of "permakill" is not defined. Is a permakill the same as an "execution" or the same as a normal "kill"? I have no idea...

 

However, the main problem is that I, like many others, believe that, some times, being hit in a report may be a product of pure luck. A number of verdicts sound random, perhaps because, while most admins do a great job to help this community, and I really admire their job (I don't know how they resist! XD!) a few may believe that they can do anything with relative impunity: from closing threads, to giving points, to banning people. And they are right, changing the rules will not change this fact.

Edited by William89

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1 hour ago, AndreyQ said:

Would be nice but doubt it will happen. No one knows what the fuck is going on with the rules, what is a rule break and what is not anymore. It's all a big mess.

This, I agree 

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Hello, 

I've been in this community for a few months and I have not had any issues with the rules or how they are written. I don't commit hostile RP actions so I have much less to worry about when it comes to the rules. I just don't break the rules to get my way. Additionally, I have seen rule breaking committed against myself and my friends and they have gotten away with it. Some people would call this bias but you can't really use that argument because it's difficult to prove. Human beings are bias, it's our nature. Which is why, in reports, all of staff put in their input on a report to make the lease bias decision possible. That I can applaud them for that! Well done staff. 

To summarize, I think the rules need to be made more clear. Examples should be made and corrections should be posted and made public. People should be forced to read the new rules and agree to them, like staff does already. I do not know what the old rules were like so I can't give an opinion on them. 

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The rules have been changed a couple of times in the last couple of years and people will never be happy with them.

Changing the rules won't fix all your problems because people will always find something else to bitch about.

I feel like it's mostly the hostile RPers compaining about the rules. Especially the initiation rules.

Maybe it's time to be original and find different ways to be hostile instead of "All of you put your hands up or you are dead". And if you want to kill some people without having to RP with them then join a public server and shoot some people.

 

Edited by Jackfish

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9 minutes ago, Jackfish said:

The rules have been changed a couple of times in the last couple of years and people will never be happy with them.

Changing the rules won't fix all your problems because people will always find something else to bitch about.

I feel like it's mostly the hostile RPers compaining about the rules. Especially the initiation rules.

Maybe it's time to be original and find different ways to be hostile instead of "All of you put your hands up or you are dead". And if you want to kill some people without having to RP with them then join a public server and shoot some people.

 

Thank you! I still believe that rules need to be clarified and examples should be made. 

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2 minutes ago, Jackfish said:

The rules have been changed a couple of times in the last couple of years and people are never happy with them.

Changing the rules won't help, because people will always find something to bitch about.

I feel like it's mostly the hostile RPers compaining about the rules. Especially the initiation rules.

Maybe it's time to be original and find different ways to be hostile instead of "All of you put your hands up or you are dead".

 

Elitism is bad, m'kay.

 

People are mad because the current KOS rights system has so many holes and confusing situations that come from it, and nobody is sure how the rule actually works because of the holes. 

Not only that, but certain rules are changed in favor of realism, only to make the KOS rights confusing and issue-laden with unnecessary magical OOC protections. The OOC protections themselves are one example of a hole in the current KOS system. Explained:

What happens if you're in an official group and you initiate on someone in a dynamic group who ends up not complying and dying:

- Dynamic Group: Can shoot you and everybody in your Official Group. Can move around freely, just outside of voip range, while actively trying to find opportunities to kill you or your Official Group members.

- Official Group: Even though the person they initiated on didn't comply, they CANNOT shoot everyone in the Dynamic Group. This fact can be abused (either knowingly or unknowingly) and has caused issues in situations in the past. Your Official Group cannot move around in the open or get close enough to the Dynamic Group to initiate without dying. This therefor gives the supposed rules advantage that was meant for the Official Group, and gives it to the Dynamic Group. 

The KOS rights and the differences between official groups and dynamic groups were changed to how they currently are to give an advantage to people who take the effort to make a group page and stick with it long enough to get the group accepted. If this advantage is made negligible or cancelled out by how the rule protects dynamic groups in situations, then it makes no sense to leave the KOS rights how they currently operate.

Another hole is the fact that people that weren't logged in can just log in and gain rights automatically and take part in the fight, even if they logged out in the area the fight was occurring. In previous rulesets, this was considered ghosting, but that's not currently how things work.

 

Agree or disagree, I know a majority of people fully understood the rules how they were in the past. The rules are now currently complicated and cause problems because nobody FULLY understands the current ruleset due to issues with the KOS rights.

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I think a revamp is needed. Too many rules that are left open to interpretation which makes it difficult for everyone 

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I really think there needs to be a set black and white guideline for the rules, so there is no wiggle room and people know where they stand. Not only for the player but for the staff also so they feel more comfortable issuing warnings and punishments. 

I just feel atm it’s not accurate or consistent, more like it depends on who does the report. 

I understand this is a gaming community but when staff take on the role of issuing out punishments there really shouldn’t be any wiggle room at all, it should be cut and dry and all staff should be on the same page with the rules. 

Same with the community people shouldn’t be trying to find loop holes. 

 

Id also like to suggest going back to mod day rules, they were clear, they were simple and understood 

 

Edited by ne_om

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Personally I don't feel the rules need to be overhauled. If we continue to call for rule revamps and/or changes then at some point there won't be any wiggle room left, to which people will inevitably start arguing that the rules are too strict. It'll become a vicious cycle and currently I feel the rules themselves are just fine the way they are. Sometimes the staff judges a situation incorrectly, sometimes they see things different from how you'd see it (as this topic was created due to the recent report that came to pass). This is inevitable, but that's why the appeal section exists. It doesn't warrant a revamping of the rules.

Unless everyone wants completely black and white rules that leave nothing to the imagination. But that way we'd see a lot more lines through names before the end of this year and a lot more threads about how difficult it has become to enjoy roleplay.

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Every case is unique and different. I agree with Roland. It's not the rules that are the issue. And rules that are black and white is not possible. People aren't black and white. There are more grey areas to situations than straight forward rule breaks. 

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eh if staff actually keept the same verdicts for the same rulebreaks and actually keept to the same decisions regarding rulebreaks. But right now its not the case, this shit with its situation to situation and that is bad very bad in a community were alot of people have beef with other members. 

 

Staff should actually keep to the rules and verdict after the actuall rules and not use the weird "case by case mindset as that leads to more bais and werid verdics"

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in my opinion you could make a 200 page document on the rules and still have the same argument, there will always be grey areas. Just look at the law of any country and you'll find the same thing, there are gray areas and thing not explained.

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1 hour ago, WombatLover69 said:

eh if staff actually keept the same verdicts for the same rulebreaks and actually keept to the same decisions regarding rulebreaks. But right now its not the case, this shit with its situation to situation and that is bad very bad in a community were a lot of people have beef with other members. 

 

Staff should actually keep to the rules and verdict after the actuall rules and not use the weird "case by case mindset as that leads to more bais and werid verdics"

Highlighted in red sounds like a more serious problem within the community than the fact staff doesn't always judge the same in the every report. Maybe we should start trying to figure out why 'a lot' community seems to have beef with one another and attempt to find ways to alleviate this instead of everyone jumping into their own groups and be wholly unwilling or unable to try and find some common ground. Clearly the whole "We're all here to roleplay" mindset is about as useful as a wet towel in a drying contest.

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6 hours ago, Roland said:

In my unpopular opinion some people are push grey areas of the rules and then they are like this when they get hit for it, using the good old "but rules don't say it's not allowed". Vast majority of players has no problem following the rules - weekly player count vs report and ban numbers speak for themselves. I don't think the rules are the problem, it's some players failing to follow the spirit of fair play.

Defining the rules more clearly and with specific conditions and requirements will only aid those trying to use grey areas not defined on the rule page as it will actually give them a valid argument such as "it's not on the rule page, you can't ban me".

And then we will have to add that grey area to the rules to mitigate it.

And then some people will come up with another thing not specifically defined on the rule page, and get away with it when its reported. So we will fix the rules once again to add that.

Soon enough the rule page will be 7 pages long and complex af. We've done it once, I know how it works. Never again. I like the way it is now with wide coverage rules that can be easily applied to a lot of different situations or even combined together.

This is not an unpopular opinion, there just happens to be a very loud vocal group who protest it.

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1 hour ago, Kenyi said:

Highlighted in red sounds like a more serious problem within the community than the fact staff doesn't always judge the same in the every report. Maybe we should start trying to figure out why 'a lot' community seems to have beef with one another and attempt to find ways to alleviate this instead of everyone jumping into their own groups and be wholly unwilling or unable to try and find some common ground. Clearly the whole "We're all here to roleplay" mindset is about as useful as a wet towel in a drying contest.

Oh it definitely is a serious problem, but it's a problem that can't be solved. You can't expect people to only have their drama IC. It will eventually leak out to OOC (which has happened on several occasions just this year) 

That is why you need to have rules that are at least clear about how things should work. The simple fact is that the beef is grounded on what happens IC. When someones RP disrupts your RP you will obviously dislike that person (most people anyway), if it happens a few more times it'll lead to a never ending hostility between you and that person.  To make sure that people aren't banned because of drama (leaving it up to staff to decide if a person gets banned or not) the rules should be more clear so staff can't give that individual input thus making the verdicts more fair all around and leaving less wiggle room for staff to decide whether they like the person or not. 

12 minutes ago, Ducky said:

This is not an unpopular opinion, there just happens to be a very loud vocal group who protest it.

I wouldn't call 35 voting yes and 6 voting no as a "very loud vocal group" it appears to me that the people who care more about the community as a whole (aka the ones discussing problems etc) are the ones wanting to change the rules. 

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6 hours ago, Roland said:

#1: In my unpopular opinion some people are push grey areas of the rules and then they are like this when they get hit for it, using the good old "but rules don't say it's not allowed". Vast majority of players has no problem following the rules - weekly player count vs report and ban numbers speak for themselves. I don't think the rules are the problem, it's some players failing to follow the spirit of fair play.

#2: Defining the rules more clearly and with specific conditions and requirements will only aid those trying to use grey areas not defined on the rule page as it will actually give them a valid argument such as "it's not on the rule page, you can't ban me".

And then we will have to add that grey area to the rules to mitigate it.

And then some people will come up with another thing not specifically defined on the rule page, and get away with it when its reported. So we will fix the rules once again to add that.

Soon enough the rule page will be 7 pages long and complex af. We've done it once, I know how it works. Never again. I like the way it is now with wide coverage rules that can be easily applied to a lot of different situations or even combined together.

#1: to be quite honest, things like the "invalid initiation" aspect have never really come into play until recently. My group, the vultures, focuses on giving quality hostile RP, just like we did in DB. Sometimes that involves not initiating but instead using scare tactics or small bodily harm like punching. Our group is rarely, if at all, banned for these because the vast majority of players care about the quality of the RP. I ask, what is actually unfair about us punching somebody for a natural progression of hostility? Sometimes we don't even need to initiate at all and do the whole "drop weapons + radios" shabang. Yes we know it gives them kill rights, yes we know if they die we'll be hit with invalid kill, but the small risk here was worth the tremendous quality RP that was given / received. The vast majority of people went along with it, and most were thankful it wasn't a bog-standard "drop weps 10 secs" because it allowed more freedom of expression, the feeling of being unchained. Recent rulings like that only dampen the actual quality of hostile roleplay, turning them into a more rigid copy & paste initiation. I really think you should rethink these verdicts, as they have never even been questioned until now.

#2: this i see your point, and I avidly disagree with adding more context / specific examples to the current ruleset. However, i also completely disagree with the notion that we don't follow the spirit of fair play. Sure there are some that do abuse "grey areas", but for us it was purely about giving unique, different hostile RP scenarios. If you remove other options people do end up with copy paste initiations and the same hostility again and again, and as a result people start complaining about the rigidity and samey feeling to every initiation, that nothing is ever different. 

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