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Shroud

Initiating from behind cover

Should you be able to initiate behind cover   

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Anybody should be able to initiate from behind a wall.

 

These new rules are restricting the way you can play so much it makes things so bland lol

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Just now, G19RP said:

Maybe you didn't see but I did include a third option???

I must have missed that! Sorry, was not my intent. As for the third option, thats honestly what I would have hopefully leaned towards; try to get them later when they are alone, or roleplay to coax one away and alone and spring the trap then.

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That's asking too much of people imo, if something spontaneous occurs and an opportunity arises, then they should be able to get to cover and drop an initiation.

Its a surprisingly little amount of planning. Especially for a roaming hostile dynamic, to just come up with a phrase to use to warn your allies to get ready. Its something that will allow you to organically and on the fly spring a trap on someone without making it super obvious. I had this done to me once by Potius Cras, and they did it rather masterfully, it put a good spin on the hostile situation, as I was OOCly impressed. This was even before the double-mic rule was put into place.

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1 hour ago, Shroud said:

So i just a certain verdict that got put out and i am kind of dumbfounded 

As you can see here @Bobby was banned for initiating behind cover and this was counted as an "invalid initiation" for some reason which makes absolutely no sense, since when is initiating behind cover an invalid initiation, as for the rule that was quoted in this verdict

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

i remember this specific wording being put into place because people would abuse the megaphones in game and just initiate from miles away in a bush so this was put in so if you were initiating with a megaphone you would need to be seen by the opposing party as to not get a large advantage over other, not really sure how this applies to the situation in the report, they could hear him clearly as he was only about 20 feet away in a bush as well as other people who bobby was with also clearly initiated on them from directly in front.

I personally feel this verdict sets a bad precedent for any future reports since now it looks like if you are just playing smart you can get dinged for "invalid initiation".

interested to hear others thoughts on the matter.

This IS a VALID invitation. If I'm initiating solo and want to hold up.. This many people. I need to be behind cover/a wall. If I die I'm in lane for getting reported for NVFL. Of course, you shouldn't be initiating on 4+ people by yourself anyway but that's just an example. 

I should be able to initiate on anyone anywhere as long as they can hear my personal voice in range of their ears. (excluding any type of PA system, etc) 

Another small rant, because of another part of what happened in that reports situation; I always complain about this in private. Lots of people claim to be RP forward but their first instinct is to immediately raise their gun and eliminate their target. I understand this completely but it RUINS RP. All RP is immediately DESTROYED when something like this happens. And it's nothing less than common among most players on this server. I don't want to lose my gear either. I don't want my friends to die either. It's realistic to defend yourself. But they aren't going to kill you. They can't. Just put your hands up and RP. It's Dayz>RP< after all. 

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1 minute ago, ZorullRP said:

Removing the ability to initiate behind cover would cause a lot of issues.

You can always give out your position when initiating

"This is John Smith behind the wall, if everyone doesn't put their hands up I'll..."

Having a poll on initiating behind cover while the rule is about being clear with initiations is silly IMHO.

You can still be clear behind cover.

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Right boys remember if somebody is inside of a base or inside of a wall you cant initiate they have complete immunity and you can do absolutely nothing to them.

 

Rules need to be more organic and allow roleplay to flow how it should.

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Full disclosure, I know the person whom the verdict concerns, but I would be making the same comments even if this involved someone I didn't know as I think the verdict makes no sense and has stretched the rule out to something that was never intended.

1 hour ago, Rover said:

 

 

 

Rolands post addresses a question regarding initiating with a megaphone, but to me he makes it clear that all initiations must follow the rule and be done personally on specific targets.

 

Before someone tries to meme this rule quote by saying that they can just 'close their eyes' and therefor render every initiation invalid because they don't know who the attacker is, know that we of course factor in the specifics of a situation. If someone just doesn't look behind themselves at an attacker in plain sight, that is one thing. If an attacker is laying prone in a bush in the dark, thats something completely different.

Cool Cool, so I also don't need to comply if someone initiates on me from behind as well right, cause I cant see them as they are not in my direct line of sight even though I can clearly hear where I am being initited from?  Or how about night time when I can't see shit cause I don't have NFG's or a light on the person?  I cant see them then even though I can clearly hear where they are speaking from,  guess they have to have clear lighting on them or be in front of lights or a fire to initiate in the dark also now? 

They were clearly aware of where the person initiating was, voip in this game is directional and within a very limited range, UNLIKE the megaphones where you can be miles away, or radios where you can be anywhere, or PA system where you could also be quite some distance away. 

Seems like the justification used by @Roland was more about the advantage gained from being able to be miles away and initiate with the people initiated on having no chance to identify where those people may have been  and thus having no way to work out who was initiating on them as if they run towards where the megaphone voice came from the person could have run off or blended in with other innocent people.  This is distinguishable from the report being discussed as it was clear where the initiation was coming from due to the small range and the clear direction that comes from a standard voip initiation and they could have easily gotten eyes on the initiator very quickly.  I could be wrong, but the context of what was actually being discussed in the thread you linked titles "megaphone initiations" makes it seem like the rule has been stretched to something that was never intended.

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Honestly adding a poll is useless as it's not as black and white as all of you are trying to make it sound. Please look at the context.

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You close my poll sir, don't do that please.

now i had to go and reopen it

Edited by Shroud

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As you wish.

Closing this thread for the time being.

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Reopening this again as it has been over 15 minutes.

I closed your poll because it is twisted to make everything sound as if this is all black and white. It isn't, and I've tried saying this multiple times throughout this thread, yet I keep getting ignored because that doesn't fit the narrative. The poll fits your narrative though.

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2 minutes ago, Hofer said:

Reopening this again as it has been over 15 minutes.

I closed your poll because it is twisted to make everything sound as if this is all black and white. It isn't, and I've tried saying this multiple times throughout this thread, yet I keep getting ignored because that doesn't fit the narrative. The poll fits your narrative though.

That's not a legit reason to close a thread.The poll fits his "narrative" because it is what everyone who has seen it thinks of the verdict. Closing a thread because people don't think the same way about a situation hmmmmm

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I assumed everyone looked at past verdicts to figure out how the rules properly worked, but I guess I may be wrong in that assumption. 

It's just frustrating to see a verdict that turns the community on its head because it goes contrary to what has been said and enforced in the past.

Edit: Also I misclicked and voted wrong, I was agreeing with the thread.

Edited by Dusty

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Rules dont even say anything about being visible when initiating, it only talks about how you aren't allowed to use a megaphone or PA system. The entire claim that led to his ban isn't a real rule on the rulepage so i confused.

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12 minutes ago, Hofer said:

Reopening this again as it has been over 15 minutes.

I closed your poll because it is twisted to make everything sound as if this is all black and white. It isn't, and I've tried saying this multiple times throughout this thread, yet I keep getting ignored because that doesn't fit the narrative. The poll fits your narrative though.

I mean the subject itself is pretty black and white my guy, he got banned for being behind a wall while initiating even though countless times before this has been allowed and not deemed a rulebreak, pretty clear cut if you ask me, not pushing any narrative here, just stating the way things have been.

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I say let us initiated behind cover because once we do, bullets start flying from the opposition. Rarely have I seen attackers actually initiate. They prefer to force the defenders to initiate despite the attackers trying to jump in. BUT if you initiate behind cover, you have to have a line of sight on them and just as added confirmation, have the person you are talking to, do something to confirm he/she heard you. Like wave or put their weapon away. 

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This verdict is big dumb. When this rule was implemented I thought the community was on-board that the only situation this applied to was in terms of megaphones or that people could not initiate via text only from behind a wall or hidden area. 

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24 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

BUT if you initiate behind cover, you have to have a line of sight on them and just as added confirmation, have the person you are talking to, do something to confirm he/she heard you. Like wave or put their weapon away.

You mean like by putting their hands up?...

 

In the past, you were always told that if you heard an initiation, you should assume it's potentially on you. Especially if the initiation is "Everybody put their hands up". The VOIP system is directional, so you can tell the direction and can easily guess the distance and location where the initiation is coming from. It's pretty easy to do. Enforcing the rules how they're written to a T is the wrong way to handle things and will only make people mad and frustrated.

Edited by Dusty

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8 minutes ago, Dusty said:

You mean like by putting their hands up?...

 

In the past, you were always told that if you heard an initiation, you should assume it's potentially on you. Especially if the initiation is "Everybody put their hands up". The VOIP system is directional, so you can tell the direction and can easily guess the distance and location where the initiation is coming from. It's pretty easy to do. Enforcing the rules how they're written to a T is the wrong way to handle things and will only make people mad and frustrated.

Exactly! I think if you hear an initiation, just assume it's on you. People don't do that from what I have seen. They just start shooting. 

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As a new player to this server, can I get an official ruling? I'm afraid of doing a lot of things on this server because I'm afraid I'll either break the rules....or if I play it super safe, get my character killed when I could have defended myself without breaking said rules because of that fear. 

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If you have to be so clear when initiating on someone that it means you can not use cover or a wall to initiate, then does that also mean you can not initiate while standing behind someone. They are still unable to see you, Just like they would be behind the wall. personally in that report I feel like the initiator initiation was clear, and anyone who wished not to fight back would of complied. Behind the wall initiations have been around since the beginning of time, why change it now.

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I'd like to hear how @Roland sees things when it comes to the verdict when he comes online again.

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Since when Is valuing your life and hedging your bets so that you dont get shot an invalid initiation? He wasn't initiating from a bush 200m away. So I dont believe he did anything wrong.

Why would anyone willingly put themselves in danger by standing in the open? It makes no sense. I use haybales, cars, and bushes as cover as much as possible because its logical. If I'm trying to rob someone or capture them alive I'm not going to just stand there with my dick in my hand and hope they comply instead of shooting me. I'm going do everything I can to make sure I don't die. Cover and concealment are two different things and I think both are perfectly valid tools to use when trying to survive in a zombie apocalypse.

Edited by dawsonpark

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2 hours ago, AramRP said:

As a new player to this server, can I get an official ruling? I'm afraid of doing a lot of things on this server because I'm afraid I'll either break the rules....or if I play it super safe, get my character killed when I could have defended myself without breaking said rules because of that fear. 

at the moment it looks like even some of us players who been on this server a long time cant tell either.

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Not sure how context matters here. 

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

He said clearly "All of you need to put your hands up or die". Everybody seemed to be in a neat little circle, so I don't understand how his use of cover makes it ambiguous as to who he's referring to. It's not like there was a BBQ going on and there were 4 groups of people all hanging around. 

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I mean if you can't get a gist of where someone is just because they are behind cover then fuck me. So if we are initiating on a compound we have to run up in front of the gates where they all can see? I don't know seams pretty crazy to me man.

Edited by JorrdanVC

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