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Shroud

Initiating from behind cover

Should you be able to initiate behind cover   

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So i just a certain verdict that got put out and i am kind of dumbfounded 

As you can see here @Bobby was banned for initiating behind cover and this was counted as an "invalid initiation" for some reason which makes absolutely no sense, since when is initiating behind cover an invalid initiation, as for the rule that was quoted in this verdict

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

i remember this specific wording being put into place because people would abuse the megaphones in game and just initiate from miles away in a bush so this was put in so if you were initiating with a megaphone you would need to be seen by the opposing party as to not get a large advantage over other, not really sure how this applies to the situation in the report, they could hear him clearly as he was only about 20 feet away in a bush as well as other people who bobby was with also clearly initiated on them from directly in front.

I personally feel this verdict sets a bad precedent for any future reports since now it looks like if you are just playing smart you can get dinged for "invalid initiation".

interested to hear others thoughts on the matter.

Edited by Shroud

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As far as I was aware and have experienced since first joining the server this has been the normal method of initiating why would you even be in sight when initiating out in the open if anything that would be NVFL in certain situations?

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Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is.

Enough said I think.

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Makes no sense, I can build a box, or build a wall in a doorway and can never be initiated on. If I cant see them then I'm safe all of a sudden? I understand the use of the rule in regards to megaphones, but VOIP... makes no sense. With this verdict if you are inside a compound you are immortal, you can never be initiated on so long as your walls are tall enough to block LOS. This needs to get changed ASAP before the turtle era begins.

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Just now, Hofer said:

Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is.

Enough said I think.

so are you trying to tell me they didn't get who the attackers were from the other guy who clearly initiated on them?

i'm pretty sure the guys knew exactly who was initiating on them, as you could see in the clip.

Edited by Shroud

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4 minutes ago, Hofer said:

Enough said I think.

Not at all man. The way its explained in the verdict is not that simple. If I am behind a wall and call out every piece of gear person X is wearing and tell them to put their hands up, is that "personal" enough? The way the verdict is written says since he was behind cover its invalid. You guys need to specify before any further reports get thrown up because the rule is all of a sudden interpreted this way rather than how it was before.

EDIT: Now when a compound is attacked I must boost over their walls before initiated, which has been ruled baiting, and get banned no matter what way I approach it. Same goes for people inside, now they have to wait until I land in the base to initiate.There are far too many loopholes and flaws with this interpretation and it needs to be changed ASAP.

Edited by G19RP

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Also this, same kind of situation and the accused were just fine with initiating behind cover, and with an initiation that cut out half way to boot, these kind of initiations are common place and have never really been seen as bannable, not sure why that all changes now.

Edited by Shroud

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17 minutes ago, Hofer said:

Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is.

Enough said I think.

Right so are you telling me all initiation have to done right in peoples faces? If that's the case I cannot initiate on compounds since I cannot see the peoples faces since I have to initiate behind a wall... Think further then just wording as that wording is for megaphones and anything that is remote your own voice is not case closed.

Edited by Eagle

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3 minutes ago, Eagle said:

bulling 

Right so are you telling me all initiation have to done right in peoples faces? If that's the case I cannot initiate on compounds since I cannot see the peoples faces since I have to initiate behind a wall... Think further then just wording as that wording is for megaphones and anything that is remote your own voice is not case closed.

No. It has to be clear who initiates. In the evidence in that report we have two videos, and in neither of them is it clear who initiates before shots ring. Ravenous decides to re-initiate as well, which was the smartest move.

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I have initiated hostilities on countless bases and compounds without them being able to see me due to the nature of attacking bases and compounds. I've never been hit with invalid initiation, seems like a harsh punishment imo

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10 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Right so are you telling me all initiation have to done right in peoples faces? If that's the case I cannot initiate on compounds since I cannot see the peoples faces since I have to initiate behind a wall... Think further then just wording as that wording is for megaphones and anything that is remote your own voice is not case closed.

eagle is Right in this case, i dont see space for discusion here.

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Idk what this staff team has come to, but people have always initiated from behind cover. It's been happening forever and no one has gotten points for it. 

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36 minutes ago, G19RP said:

Now when a compound is attacked I must boost over their walls before initiated, which has been ruled baiting, and get banned no matter what way I approach it. Same goes for people inside, now they have to wait until I land in the base to initiate.There are far too many loopholes and flaws with this interpretation and it needs to be changed ASAP.

Initiating on a compound or a base is totally different to what happened in that report, and can't be compared. Do you scream "EVERYONE PUT YOUR HANDS UP HANDS UP" when initiating on a camp? I sure hope you elaborate your initiations a bit more.

In this particular report the initiation was vague, as well as the initiator hid behind the bush in an open area.

Edit: Instead of looking at everything black and white, put some context to the situations before nitpicking.

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Just now, Hofer said:

Initiating on a compound or a base is totally different to what happened in that report, and can't be compared. Do you scream "EVERYONE PUT YOUR HANDS UP HANDS UP" when initiating on a camp? I sure hope you elaborate your initiations a bit more.

In this particular report the initiation was vague, as well as the initiator hid behind the bush in an open area.

what do you mean by elaborate, what else is there to say besides "Everyone in the compound put your hands up or you will be shot" that is literally the initiation everyone uses. since when do i need to say a paragraph to initiate on someone?

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39 minutes ago, Shroud said:

i remember this specific wording being put into place because people would abuse the megaphones in game and just initiate from miles away in a bush so this was put in so if you were initiating with a megaphone you would need to be seen by the opposing party as to not get a large advantage over other, not really sure how this applies to the situation in the report, they could hear him clearly as he was only about 20 feet away in a bush as well as other people who bobby was with also clearly initiated on them from directly in front.

I personally feel this verdict sets a bad precedent for any future reports since now it looks like if you are just playing smart you can get dinged for "invalid initiation".

interested to hear others thoughts on the matter.

 

 

 

Rolands post addresses a question regarding initiating with a megaphone, but to me he makes it clear that all initiations must follow the rule and be done personally on specific targets.

 

Quote

Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is

Before someone tries to meme this rule quote by saying that they can just 'close their eyes' and therefor render every initiation invalid because they don't know who the attacker is, know that we of course factor in the specifics of a situation. If someone just doesn't look behind themselves at an attacker in plain sight, that is one thing. If an attacker is laying prone in a bush in the dark, thats something completely different.

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When you claim its invalid while in the past 5 years all initiations have been like this or even worse.

Imagine having to be forced to stand right infront of someone when you want to initiate because thats how staff wants to look at rules now. Why would you ever want to stand infront of someone when you are initiating? And if they put up a report for nvfl you get fucked on, and if you initiate from behind cover you still get fucked on. It's funny how staffs views on the rules can vary so much. The rules need a complete overhaul with how poorly worded they are and the immense amount of confusion members are having on so many different rules.

In that report, the OP and friends knew Bobby, they saw him prior to him initiating and they spoke with him for a while so they knew who and what he was wearing, he didnt run to the other side of town and initiated he hid behind a wall right infront of them and was stood close to the wall and peaked to have LOS on them. 

Also, the report was solved so quick that they ignored the fact i was RDM'd down without involvement, didn't call me in even though I was in the logs. And when I went to the help desk I let them know I was involved and already in the logs. 

1 minute ago, Hofer said:

Initiating on a compound or a base is totally different to what happened in that report, and can't be compared. Do you scream "EVERYONE PUT YOUR HANDS UP HANDS UP" when initiating on a camp? I sure hope you elaborate your initiations a bit more.

In this particular report the initiation was vague, as well as the initiator hid behind the bush in an open area.

Lol thats now how he initiated is it? He said All of you put your fucking hands up or you will be shot, looks like a pretty cut and clear initiation wouldn't you say? Demand and threat right after. You verdicted the report and don't even know what he said when he was initiating, now youre making things up to back up your invalid points.

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Just now, Hofer said:

I sure hope you elaborate your initiations a bit more.

"Everyone inside the compound hands up or die!" is just as simple and straightforward as "Everyone put your fucking hands up!". If you hear that, and dont want to die, then put your hands in the air. Who the fuck hears that and goes "hmm I wonder who that is and why/who they are saying it to". No one does, if you hear an initiation and are unsure, then comply. Simple as, the fault shouldn't hit the people who are using common sense and putting themselves in cover. Makes absolutely NO SENSE for me to put myself in the open so I can get firing squaded in front of the crowd, especially when they aren't in an official group and need to all initiate separately. 

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1 minute ago, Hofer said:

Initiating on a compound or a base is totally different to what happened in that report, and can't be compared. Do you scream "EVERYONE PUT YOUR HANDS UP HANDS UP" when initiating on a camp? I sure hope you elaborate your initiations a bit more.

In this particular report the initiation was vague, as well as the initiator hid behind the bush in an open area.

If you initiate in the open in front of people youre asking to get killed, thats nvfl? So the rules contradict themselves. Initiating on a compound is the same as initiating on people who are in the open. It's "EVERYONE HANDS UP OR DIE", its pointed at everyone how can you be more clear? 

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The way you are putting the rule across implies that you want whoever is initiating to die every single time

 

EDIT - Makes me wonder about NVFL, what is NVFL in those scenarios?

Edited by General Rickets

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6 minutes ago, Hofer said:

Edit: Instead of looking at everything black and white, put some context to the situations before nitpicking.

That is the exact problem I have seen in the last year or so, sure context needs to be looked at, but the rules shouldn't be this open for interpretation. I should not have to be looking through ask the staff threads to find what i can and cant do, and the vague rules with no examples dont give players, especially new ones a proper chance at not getting themselves banned. Make the rules black and white, add examples, if people loophole it, ban them. I've asked multiple staff members recently about reports, and all I get is "depends on what staff member is handling it". That is a terrible thing to hear coming from the staff team itself and leaves me wondering 10x over in every situation. 

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9 minutes ago, Hofer said:

Do you scream "EVERYONE PUT YOUR HANDS UP HANDS UP" when initiating on a camp?

Is that what I said? 

I said "All of you put your fucking hands up right now or im gonna fucking shoot you"

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1 minute ago, G19RP said:

That is the exact problem I have seen in the last year or so, sure context needs to be looked at, but the rules shouldn't be this open for interpretation. I should not have to be looking through ask the staff threads to find what i can and cant do, and the vague rules with no examples dont give players, especially new ones a proper chance at not getting themselves banned. Make the rules black and white, add examples, if people loophole it, ban them. I've asked multiple staff members recently about reports, and all I get is "depends on what staff member is handling it". That is a terrible thing to hear coming from the staff team itself and leaves me wondering 10x over in every situation. 

I do agree that the rules should be more elaborate and to the point, with examples. Like they used to be before.

 

Just now, Bobby said:

Is that what I said? 

I said "All of you put your fucking hands up right now or im gonna fucking shoot you"

I didn't go back and listen to the exact wording before I posted in this thread.

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So I have to commit NVFL to initiate on a group of 5 or more. Got it

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2 minutes ago, WongRP said:

So I have to commit NVFL to initiate on a group of 5 or more. Got it

Thats a good point, what about initiating on a compound? Do I have to boost over the wall to initiate so i'm in clear view? What if they report me for baiting and NVFL? Which rules are put in place where in these scenarios? @Hofer

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35 minutes ago, General Rickets said:

Thats a good point, what about initiating on a compound? Do I have to boost over the wall to initiate so i'm in clear view? What if they report me for baiting and NVFL? Which rules are put in place where in these scenarios? @Hofer

 

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