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Blake

Regarding 2.3

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Slava NA, Slava 101!

But, back to topic. Rule 2.3 gets tossed around like a hot potato. But I have seen groups being snapped and force archived more on basis of getting bad attitude on forums, breaking multiple other rules to get enough points to warrant closure of the group and/or removal of members. So should the focus on rules be set on all rules that exsist, and not only 2.3? Because 2.3 is only the boogieman that gets tossed around, but has happened only once  when other rules are bigger cause of snaps on this community?

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I favor leaving 2.3 as is. I have yet to experience any 2.3 report or even seen one. The only time I see/hear any mention of 2.3 is when it involves a group of Hostile RPers that hold a reputation of focussing on Hostile RP. 

But I do believe that if you poke a snake over and over then don't complain if you get bit. Going to start a fight with a bigger group only to run and hide behind walls each time, I dont see how you can use 2.3 if your actions keep leading to to getting raided by the same group, then you deserve it. If the attacking group raids and successfully kills thier opposition, then they should not havent a reason to go after them again. So don't give them a reason. 

But thats my opinion based on my experiences here so far. Im not a Hostile RPer, usually a victim of it. 

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I am just thinking... this whole discussion is not really about the 2.3 rule... it's about "campfire" vs "PvP" RPers! (which by the way is a poor classification). XD! This same discussion is repeated every few  weeks! XD!

 

I think that people should just expect to be surprised in each encounter, and enjoy the surprise: whether it is a robbery, a friendly conversation, or a dramatic situation (like one of Firedude's typical romantic problems! XD!). The community should be more friendly OOCly, more forgiving for things that happen ICly. Some people appear to be obsessed with kicking out those who do not play like they do... However, I strongly believe that the community would be better if we could recover many of the players who were permabanned. Diversity is important! Situations are not interesting when they are predictable!

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I agree with the fact that 2.3 is thrown around as a threat and means of punishing IC groups OOCly, by having them simply removed from the world of DayZRP. I do not specifically like the fact that suddenly, groups are deleted out of the world that we roleplay in. The one part that I can get behind of 2.3, is the constant attacking and harassment of groups. However, I believe that a compromise can be better developed than just simply saying "Yeah these guys attack us everyday, Im gonna file a 2.3 report on them to get them banned". If a group is constantly attacking another, then an IC compromise has to be made between the two groups without the most hostile group being archived.

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42 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

I favor leaving 2.3 as is. I have yet to experience any 2.3 report or even seen one. The only time I see/hear any mention of 2.3 is when it involves a group of Hostile RPers that hold a reputation of focussing on Hostile RP. 

The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish. 

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1 hour ago, Apollo said:

The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish. 

May I see evidence of this? I haven't seen or heard of this happening. Or could you share this with all of us? If a group is getting threatened by a Rule 2.3 report then they might be attacking a rival group too much and possibly bullying them OR they are false in which case, let them put in a false report and they can get disciplined. So please share evidence with us as proof so we can all understand your side of the argument better. I'd love to learn more about this "blackmail-ish" claim that's going on and maybe we can put an end to it or debate a solution.

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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9 minutes ago, Apollo said:

The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish. 

In that case dont pay attention to the claim, everyone is here for fun.

- If they want to put up the report then let them and if its proved they are wrong and a not guilty verdict is reached then they will get hit for false report/ruleplay.

- Also if they are using 2.3 to blackmail you into changing your IC ways and stopping you from having fun and playing to your own/group goals then bring it to staffs attention (GM+) as blackmail in the past comes with a serious punishment of final warnings or permabans

As long as my group isnt involved im always happy to listen to 2.3 cases before they go public either by the OP or defending party.

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It's curious to see the constant back and forth on Rule 2.3. On the one hand, I regularly see people posting "We have a rule for this, if you feel like it's happening, use that rule." but the moment the rule is actually used by a group there's a immediate follow-up about "how rule 2.3 is only used for blackmail/OOC reasoning."

Personally, I'm on the side that there has to be somekind of rule set in place for when things go overboard. The implementation/wording of it can surely be refined further, but there has to be a hard limit to prevent people from being basically "bullied" out of the game.

However, altering or removing 2.3 isn't going to fix the problem as a whole. The fundamental difference in mentality that continues to divides this community to this day will still be present. It's the same difference in mentality that makes a portion of the community roleplaying out injuries after a firefight while another portion of it come back with no indication of even having been in one. There's a massive difference in priorities that often cause the friction that we've been experiencing since the Standalone (I don't remember it being as bad in the Mod Days, but then again, my memory has become rather hazy on how the community was at the time. I mostly remember the excellent roleplay and less division in the community).

I'm also seeing a lot of "if you don't want to PvP, just comply" arguments. But say that everyone complies every single time. Suddenly the HostileRPers would constantly have to deal with giving RP every single encounter, something that has a tendency rapidly degrades over time because there's only so much hostile actions to take before you start repeating yourself. That would cause the exact same problems as people never complying (staleRP, no real satisfaction for at least one of the parties involved).

There is a lack of wanting to deal with consequences of IC actions all across the board. This is not limited to the dreaded CampfireRPers (which, hilariously enough, seem to be complained about more often than the equally dreaded HostileRPers nowadays). That ever present Us vs Them is what is the real, deep-rooted issue in all this and as long as we're unable to bring this community together (despite efforts being made, like @Ryan Shepherd making bootleg interviews that primarily feature the more hostile side of the community, giving people insight into the actual person behind the character) discussions like this will never go anywhere.

Maybe we can take the first step by trying to stop labelling people as a particular style and instead call everyone "Roleplayers" without adding any prefixes. Because at the end of the day, isn't it Roleplay we come here for?

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36 minutes ago, Kenyi said:

It's curious to see the constant back and forth on Rule 2.3. On the one hand, I regularly see people posting "We have a rule for this, if you feel like it's happening, use that rule." but the moment the rule is actually used by a group there's a immediate follow-up about "how rule 2.3 is only used for blackmail/OOC reasoning."

Personally, I'm on the side that there has to be somekind of rule set in place for when things go overboard. The implementation/wording of it can surely be refined further, but there has to be a hard limit to prevent people from being basically "bullied" out of the game.

However, altering or removing 2.3 isn't going to fix the problem as a whole. The fundamental difference in mentality that continues to divides this community to this day will still be present. It's the same difference in mentality that makes a portion of the community roleplaying out injuries after a firefight while another portion of it come back with no indication of even having been in one. There's a massive difference in priorities that often cause the friction that we've been experiencing since the Standalone (I don't remember it being as bad in the Mod Days, but then again, my memory has become rather hazy on how the community was at the time. I mostly remember the excellent roleplay and less division in the community).

I'm also seeing a lot of "if you don't want to PvP, just comply" arguments. But say that everyone complies every single time. Suddenly the HostileRPers would constantly have to deal with giving RP every single encounter, something that has a tendency rapidly degrades over time because there's only so much hostile actions to take before you start repeating yourself. That would cause the exact same problems as people never complying (staleRP, no real satisfaction for at least one of the parties involved).

There is a lack of wanting to deal with consequences of IC actions all across the board. This is not limited to the dreaded CampfireRPers (which, hilariously enough, seem to be complained about more often than the equally dreaded HostileRPers nowadays). That ever present Us vs Them is what is the real, deep-rooted issue in all this and as long as we're unable to bring this community together (despite efforts being made, like @Ryan Shepherd making bootleg interviews that primarily feature the more hostile side of the community, giving people insight into the actual person behind the character) discussions like this will never go anywhere.

Maybe we can take the first step by trying to stop labelling people as a particular style and instead call everyone "Roleplayers" without adding any prefixes. Because at the end of the day, isn't it Roleplay we come here for?

Couldn't agree more. I dont mind hostile RP but I'd like to see some good RP with it. 

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

One cannot blackmail you with a report for a rule break if you haven't broken that rule. That doesn't make any sense.

So this thread must mean that OP knows his group has broken or is borderlining the rule, because that's the only situation where one would be worried about enemy threatening with a 2.3 report. Any other group which has not broken any rule would know it's a baseless claim and move on, not try to have the rule removed.

thinking think GIF

400 IQ

Thank you for speaking what most of us are thinking. 

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13 minutes ago, Roland said:

One cannot blackmail you with a report for a rule break if you haven't broken that rule. That doesn't make any sense.

So this thread must mean that OP knows his group has broken or is borderlining the rule, because that's the only situation where one would be worried about enemy threatening with a 2.3 report. Any other group which has not broken any rule would know it's a baseless claim and move on, not try to have the rule removed.

thinking think GIF

400 IQ

Rolle after the last 2.3 and how it went down people are going to be paranoid. How 20+ peps got punish and only one allowed to post and a bunch of people that were inactive.

 

Just look at @Jean never did enything hostile and got pked

 

Thats why people dosent like 2.3 rule dosent make sense and need a removal or be rewritten

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Roland said:

One cannot blackmail you with a report for a rule break if you haven't broken that rule. That doesn't make any sense.

So this thread must mean that OP knows his group has broken or is borderlining the rule, because that's the only situation where one would be worried about enemy threatening with a 2.3 report. Any other group which has not broken any rule would know it's a baseless claim and move on, not try to have the rule removed.

thinking think GIF

400 IQ

You claim they are borderline breaking it but like boris said, look at the last 2.3 report. That was an absolute shambles you just catagorised everyone on the roster under the same banner and punished everyone campfire roleplayer and PvPer alike without actually taking the time or making the effort to deal with it properly resulting in the death of thousands of hours of roleplay in an instant.

 

The last report wasn’t looked into properly and since it’s the only one posted public ally and the only one we have to go off so what in God’s mind explains you stating we shouldn’t be paranoid? What will be different this time when we’re falsely accused again but get approved? A lot of us have 0 points yet we are and have still been threatened with a perm ban just for being on two rosters? How do you justify stating that we should move on when you are the one holding a noose around our neck?

If you want the server to run seamlessly you need to allow roleplay to develop and stop holding people’s hands who don’t like getting beat. Or stop giving them a weapon to use when they don’t like the consequences of their actions just like the last public report.

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2.3 allows people to big dick and shit talk without any repercussions because those people know if they get attacked for their actions they'll just get the enemy banned/PK'd via 2.3 and claim they survived or won a war.

 

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59 minutes ago, WombatLover69 said:

Rolle after the last 2.3 and how it went down people are going to be paranoid. How 20+ peps got punish and only one allowed to post and a bunch of people that were inactive.

 

Just look at @Jean never did enything hostile and got pked

 

Thats why people dosent like 2.3 rule dosent make sense and need a removal or be rewritten

 

 

 

FYI groups could be force archived in the past as well, before there was anything called rule 2.3. Some people in the group fuck up, everyone gets to feel the punishment. That's just how it is.

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2 minutes ago, Hofer said:

FYI groups could be force archived in the past as well, before there was anything called rule 2.3. Some people in the group fuck up, everyone gets to feel the punishment. That's just how it is.

Yes groups went through a process. If they get x amount of points in x time then they get put on group final. Difference is it was to do with rulebreaks and point count not for them attacking groups.

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2 minutes ago, WongRP said:

Yes groups went through a process. If they get x amount of points in x time then they get put on group final. Difference is it was to do with rulebreaks and point count not for them attacking groups.

I don't have any examples at the moment, but I am 100% sure that I remember instances where there were groups around that we closed down due to their lack of interest in roleplay and only focus on PvP. I'm gonna have a dig through the group forums for examples.

However. 2.3 should never be used as blackmail, and in my honest opinion if someone uses it as blackmail, record and report. That should also be a banable offense. If not banable, the person/group using it as blackmail needs to be told otherwise.

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33 minutes ago, WongRP said:

2.3 allows people to big dick and shit talk without any repercussions because those people know if they get attacked for their actions they'll just get the enemy banned/PK'd via 2.3 and claim they survived or won a war.

 

I have not seen any instance of this happening but if someone does do that, report them. Simple as that. We dont need to remove or adjust the rule because a few people are abusing it. The rule is there to keep PvP focussed groups in check and turn the focus towards RP. Not constant PvP over minor stuff. 

And if someone is shit talking you, ignore them. Be the bigger man. Let them talk. They will slip up and you will have your chance.

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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The 2.3 rule on its face needs to remain in the game. At the moment it is the rule that protects players from malicious IC actions driven by OOC issues, from constant harassment IC to the point of being unable to enjoy the game, and from RP turning into nothing but a stale cycle of being hostage or dead. 

 

  • If you are guilty of 2.3 and are being blackmailed with it, stop breaking 2.3.
  • If you are not guilty of 2.3 and are being blackmailed with it, don't sweat it. You aren't guilty. 
  • If you don't know if you are guilty of breaking 2.3 and are being blackmailed with it, stop the actions that you aren't sure of are within the rules.

 

This isn't hard hard. Err on the side of caution, just like we do right now with initiations and reinitiating when you aren't sure who someone is or if they heard you. If you aren't sure if you are 2.3'ing someone and they are making noises like you are, maybe don't go taking the fight to them again, or starting shit. See if they start shit with you first.

Blackmailing is already listed as a ban worthy action that warrants a permanent removal from the community. If you have evidence you are being blackmailed, you should submit it via support ticket to the admin team for review.

 

I have sympathy to those members of groups that lost characters due to the group being 2.3'd that had nothing to do with the hostilities. But that seems to me like its a by-design consequence. The goal of that in my eyes is to have group members enforce the rules on themselves. Accountability starts with the group leader to set a good example and play within the scope of our rules. Keep your members from curbstomping other groups continuously if you are worried about getting 2.3'd.

 

I really find it ironic how people saying 2.3 is the devils bane and killing the server. Yet its a common refrain to throw around 'report it if you don't like it'. And I have heard of far more people leaving due to the overabundance of stale and boring PVP then I have from the rules. Unless they got permed for breaking rules. 

 

I think 2.3 needs to be around because of players OOC emotions/history getting into their IC. Its super easy to rationalize and justify any RP interaction, and people can easily hide behind the veil of 'its what my character would do' to justify IC hostilities that are motivated OOCly. 

 

13 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

And if someone is shit talking you, ignore them. Be the bigger man. Let them talk. They will slip up and you will have your chance.

 

Wholeheartedly disagree with you. If someone is shit talking, they've thrown away their right to complain about the consequences. If you are on the 'losing' side of conflict in a 2.3 situation and you are start throwing shade or starting fights, you are invalidating the 2.3 in my eyes, and should deserve the consequences you get. Don't hide behind the rule and use it as armor.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Rover said:

Wholeheartedly disagree with you. If someone is shit talking, they've thrown away their right to complain about the consequences. If you are on the 'losing' side of conflict in a 2.3 situation and you are start throwing shade or starting fights, you are invalidating the 2.3 in my eyes, and should deserve the consequences you get. Don't hide behind the rule and use it as armor.

 

 

And that's fair. But retaliating with constant raids and attacks all because they started shit talking and hurting one's ego, doesn't justify breaking rule 2.3

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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1 minute ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

And that's fair. But retaliating with constant raids and attacks all because they started shit talking and hurting one's ego, doesn't justify breaking rule 2.3

IDKKK hiding behind a rule wall while acting big is pretty rough.

Theres a million other ways to handle assholes ic.

When groups band together against, one large group it's pretty dope.

When a group who's losing a fight makes a roleplay deal with the other group or even tries to negotiate it's pretty dope.

When basically any roleplay scenario happens that doesn't involve talking shit while hiding behind a rule it's pretty dope. 

I'm not talking about any specific scenario here as i've been gone for a bit, but i've had it happen a lot in the past. Everyone wants to play a badass hard motherfucker but when push comes to shove and they can't back it up, or don't want to try follow through with the roleplay in other ways outside of straight fighting, it gets dumb. Continues a cycle of , talk shit, get attacked, get mad, run up , regear, talk shit , get attacked etc etc etc. 

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6 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

And that's fair. But retaliating with constant raids and attacks all because they started shit talking and hurting one's ego, doesn't justify breaking rule 2.3

You are correct, it doesn't. 

However I would find it very hard to believe that the only provocation was one instance of shit-talking, then a storm of constant raid and attacks. I suspect there was probably continued shit-talking. Or other actions. I mean, if I was playing a hardened bandit character I'd keep doing it until I got a humiliating apology from the person then I'd stop. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, UndeadRP said:

I'm not talking about any specific scenario here as i've been gone for a bit, but i've had it happen a lot in the past. Everyone wants to play a badass hard motherfucker but when push comes to shove and they can't back it up, or don't want to try follow through with the roleplay in other ways outside of straight fighting, it gets dumb. Continues a cycle of , talk shit, get attacked, get mad, run up , regear, talk shit , get attacked etc etc etc. 

Then the Report wars happen. But I have yet to see any instance of Rule 2.3 being used in such a negative way. No one has provided proof, yet, of people using it to "blackmail" either. One person here said, "The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish." I want to see proof this happens. 

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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12 minutes ago, Rover said:

You are correct, it doesn't. 

However I would find it very hard to believe that the only provocation was one instance of shit-talking, then a storm of constant raid and attacks. I suspect there was probably continued shit-talking. Or other actions. I mean, if I was playing a hardened bandit character I'd keep doing it until I got a humiliating apology from the person then I'd stop. 

Shit talking alone, no matter how many times it happens, doesn't justify constant raids and attacks. You are simply feeding into what the other person wants. Now if they keep shooting at you or attacking in retaliation then fuck them. Go at them. But just verbal insults? That's giving in to their wishes. When my people were raided once, all the attackers did was call us the N-word a lot and play music through their mics. We just ignored them. Be the bigger man. 

But please clarify for me and our fellow players, you wouldn't break Rule 2.3 over verbal insults, correct? 

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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6 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

Shit talking alone, no matter how many times it happens, doesn't justify constant raids and attacks. You are simply feeding into what the other person wants. Now if they keep shooting at you or attacking in retaliation then fuck them. Go at them. But just verbal insults? That's giving in to their wishes. When my people were raided once, all the attackers did was call us the N-word a lot and play music through their mics. We just ignored them. Be the bigger man. 

This thread and the conversation up to here was about 2.3 reports, and I was referring to the party starting the 2.3 report. The people being oppressed. Not attackers shit-talking defenders.

 

I would still disagree with you however. If you are shit-talking someone, and they raid you and win then you continue to shit talk them, you are inviting that. People need to eat some humble pie when they lose, and not run to the rules to get their victory. 2.3 reports are not and should not be used for people that are provoking IC hostilities and unable to handle the consequences of that. It should be for people that have actually actively taken steps to deescalate the situation, and have been unable to remedy it with IC actions, or with an OOC face to face to talk it out. 

 

If people are ICly goading and poking the bear, they deserve getting bit. Hiding behind the rules is not okay.

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I think the point of 2.3 is to discourage people from witch-hunting other groups constantly. If a small group A angers a much bigger group B, it shouldn't ruin the roleplay of group A at all times, meaning that hostility can be provided and encouraged, but without the need for constant initiation or killing. At the end of the day, it gets tiresome to keep explaining over and over how your character managed to survive fifty bullets to the chest. I see why people are annoyed by 2.3, since people like to PvP, but I think that there is a necessity to keep some sort of rule like that in the rules, just as a reminder of sorts. 

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