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Blake

Regarding 2.3

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*The old princess would rise from her dusty throne*

I see things have not changed around here, no understanding between two sides of the community, imo remove this 2.3 meme it prevents role play progression and promotes role play regression. Seems to me like it was put in to create balance between two sides the community but has ended up as some form of ammo for another to ignore roleplay.

I am somewhat of a roleplayer myself you know?

Treat other kindly you little goons and goonettes 

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Posted (edited)

Hmmm, I am not going to get a lot of love for what I am about to say.

I think I would agree with most of you for removing the rule if it hadn't been for the fact that I was apart of the Northern Alliance.

The Northern Alliance started out as a hidden alliance, one that very few people knew about, it grew to insane numbers when at one point 9 approved groups joined up, resulting in a rough 148 members, it included a few dynamic groups living up north as well.

These groups started political meetings went through early stages of coupes and managed to form a constitution for the Alliance and even an early indirect democratic system. Some of the coolest RP I have ever had came from that.

Ultimately, we had a run-in with the group "Savages", and this was, for the most part, okay, I remember Alex and Roger setting up some OOC terms, but it kicked off something nasty, something that wasn't their fault.

Against the Savages, we lost as much as we won, and we tied equally as much, we had about 65 people in it comfortable with PVP'ing and these people made up the guard to protect peoples RP.

But after about a week of that, we somehow gained the attention of a bunch of other groups I forgot the name of. Now came a shit fest so big, that RP'ing out our wounds wasn't even possible. We tossed it out of the window, to protect as many of the NON' PVP capable people.

Every day, for the next 3 to 6 months we fought to defend ourselves 4 to 6 times. It consisted of being attacked by 10 man teams at the max, when we died we would run back after the NLR time ran out or to go protect another part of the North, be resupplied by the looters who did all the logistical work, and immediately within 30 minutes, NO JOKE. get reinitiated upon and fight all over again.

Now I see the argument coming up over and over if you can't beat em make a deal with them. Sure, but for a bit of realism here, we were big enough to fill 3 full servers at the time, sure we couldn't always fill an entire server time zones exist.

But would a 10 man team really attack a 148 member alliance? We cried for help because we did actually end up surrendering to the savages just to get that part to stop, but we didn't find a diminishing factor in anything, instead, we got unreasonable demands from 6 different hostile parties and we couldn't comply with any of these.

I still even have this peace treaty: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bWZwxkhTwsL7d0-4YoGppQhbiEG-A0KWjyIfG9Kuyzo/edit?usp=sharing

Now the demands multiple group gave us were as followed:
1. Leave the North.
2. Give us guns.
3. Disarm the Northern Alliance.
4. Go live in Kabanino.
5. Leave Chernarus
6. Go South to Chernogorsk region.
7. Farm our imaginary drugs in the North.

We couldn't comply to all of them and in the meantime, that entire alliance full of RP I had never experienced before, where laws were set and trade caravans created between towns disappeared, our rollout of passports grinded to a halt under so many attacks that we became tired.

Instead, I came up with a plan that was voted into power by the council which was essentially our last struggle. We all retreated to Stary Yar, set ourselves up so we would always have the most amount of people in a concentrated area as possible. WE EVEN MADE GUARD ROSTERS OOC'ly TO ENSURE IT!

This only caused more problems, somehow it caused people to come at us even more ferocious then before.

148 members, grinded down to 100 members because 48 of them were done with the PVP, they were done with it all and left the community for at least 6 to 10 months, some of them to never return.

then 100 grinded down to 63. same story as above.

finally for us to do our last-ditch effort of starting the Official Northern Alliance group thread, https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h3T_GQ0-2tOAbQebtSKgFuHp54WW0p6ir_y79yUVwOY/edit?usp=sharing

In the hope we would find a new spark, to renew it all, but a few weeks later, the last great builders of the Northern Alliance, the 101 were done aswell they pulled out so yet again -28, putting us down to 35. So we scattered to the wind, giving up on the idea. We no longer had the manpower to protect ourselves around the clock. And at any given moment we were offline we would logon to find everything griefed, for 6 months long.

It was all within the rules, that's the worst part, and you can say what you want, but a 148 man strong group does not get assaulted by 10 people. because you will run before you attack it.

the limits of the game caused us to go down, and if these attacks were 1 a day, ya know, we could've done it, but multiple different groups kept coming back, constantly, so it resulted in 3 to 6 attacks a day, minimum.

I would say that we had a great run with that alliance, I mean the groundwork was laid between the Severni Medvedi and The Lovec back in 2014/2015, in which it grew when the Lovec and the Roamers continued it.

But the reality is when the alliance got traction, we had nothing BUT PVP, RP wasn't something we experienced.

And that was no one's fault. Because no one needs to coordinate their attacks, but I like to think, that if 2.3 would've existed, things would've been very different.

So I don't want to see the rule go at all. I want to see it reworked into a way it cant be used to blackmail people, but also into a way that a massive settlement alliance can be protected from constant attacks 24/7 to a point where they can't RP anymore.

Because it did happen.

It does happen.

There are no buts, there are no ifs.

It happened.

Edited by RedSky

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Slava NA, Slava 101!

But, back to topic. Rule 2.3 gets tossed around like a hot potato. But I have seen groups being snapped and force archived more on basis of getting bad attitude on forums, breaking multiple other rules to get enough points to warrant closure of the group and/or removal of members. So should the focus on rules be set on all rules that exsist, and not only 2.3? Because 2.3 is only the boogieman that gets tossed around, but has happened only once  when other rules are bigger cause of snaps on this community?

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I favor leaving 2.3 as is. I have yet to experience any 2.3 report or even seen one. The only time I see/hear any mention of 2.3 is when it involves a group of Hostile RPers that hold a reputation of focussing on Hostile RP. 

But I do believe that if you poke a snake over and over then don't complain if you get bit. Going to start a fight with a bigger group only to run and hide behind walls each time, I dont see how you can use 2.3 if your actions keep leading to to getting raided by the same group, then you deserve it. If the attacking group raids and successfully kills thier opposition, then they should not havent a reason to go after them again. So don't give them a reason. 

But thats my opinion based on my experiences here so far. Im not a Hostile RPer, usually a victim of it. 

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I am just thinking... this whole discussion is not really about the 2.3 rule... it's about "campfire" vs "PvP" RPers! (which by the way is a poor classification). XD! This same discussion is repeated every few  weeks! XD!

 

I think that people should just expect to be surprised in each encounter, and enjoy the surprise: whether it is a robbery, a friendly conversation, or a dramatic situation (like one of Firedude's typical romantic problems! XD!). The community should be more friendly OOCly, more forgiving for things that happen ICly. Some people appear to be obsessed with kicking out those who do not play like they do... However, I strongly believe that the community would be better if we could recover many of the players who were permabanned. Diversity is important! Situations are not interesting when they are predictable!

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I agree with the fact that 2.3 is thrown around as a threat and means of punishing IC groups OOCly, by having them simply removed from the world of DayZRP. I do not specifically like the fact that suddenly, groups are deleted out of the world that we roleplay in. The one part that I can get behind of 2.3, is the constant attacking and harassment of groups. However, I believe that a compromise can be better developed than just simply saying "Yeah these guys attack us everyday, Im gonna file a 2.3 report on them to get them banned". If a group is constantly attacking another, then an IC compromise has to be made between the two groups without the most hostile group being archived.

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42 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

I favor leaving 2.3 as is. I have yet to experience any 2.3 report or even seen one. The only time I see/hear any mention of 2.3 is when it involves a group of Hostile RPers that hold a reputation of focussing on Hostile RP. 

The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Apollo said:

The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish. 

May I see evidence of this? I haven't seen or heard of this happening. Or could you share this with all of us? If a group is getting threatened by a Rule 2.3 report then they might be attacking a rival group too much and possibly bullying them OR they are false in which case, let them put in a false report and they can get disciplined. So please share evidence with us as proof so we can all understand your side of the argument better. I'd love to learn more about this "blackmail-ish" claim that's going on and maybe we can put an end to it or debate a solution.

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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9 minutes ago, Apollo said:

The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish. 

In that case dont pay attention to the claim, everyone is here for fun.

- If they want to put up the report then let them and if its proved they are wrong and a not guilty verdict is reached then they will get hit for false report/ruleplay.

- Also if they are using 2.3 to blackmail you into changing your IC ways and stopping you from having fun and playing to your own/group goals then bring it to staffs attention (GM+) as blackmail in the past comes with a serious punishment of final warnings or permabans

As long as my group isnt involved im always happy to listen to 2.3 cases before they go public either by the OP or defending party.

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It's curious to see the constant back and forth on Rule 2.3. On the one hand, I regularly see people posting "We have a rule for this, if you feel like it's happening, use that rule." but the moment the rule is actually used by a group there's a immediate follow-up about "how rule 2.3 is only used for blackmail/OOC reasoning."

Personally, I'm on the side that there has to be somekind of rule set in place for when things go overboard. The implementation/wording of it can surely be refined further, but there has to be a hard limit to prevent people from being basically "bullied" out of the game.

However, altering or removing 2.3 isn't going to fix the problem as a whole. The fundamental difference in mentality that continues to divides this community to this day will still be present. It's the same difference in mentality that makes a portion of the community roleplaying out injuries after a firefight while another portion of it come back with no indication of even having been in one. There's a massive difference in priorities that often cause the friction that we've been experiencing since the Standalone (I don't remember it being as bad in the Mod Days, but then again, my memory has become rather hazy on how the community was at the time. I mostly remember the excellent roleplay and less division in the community).

I'm also seeing a lot of "if you don't want to PvP, just comply" arguments. But say that everyone complies every single time. Suddenly the HostileRPers would constantly have to deal with giving RP every single encounter, something that has a tendency rapidly degrades over time because there's only so much hostile actions to take before you start repeating yourself. That would cause the exact same problems as people never complying (staleRP, no real satisfaction for at least one of the parties involved).

There is a lack of wanting to deal with consequences of IC actions all across the board. This is not limited to the dreaded CampfireRPers (which, hilariously enough, seem to be complained about more often than the equally dreaded HostileRPers nowadays). That ever present Us vs Them is what is the real, deep-rooted issue in all this and as long as we're unable to bring this community together (despite efforts being made, like @Ryan Shepherd making bootleg interviews that primarily feature the more hostile side of the community, giving people insight into the actual person behind the character) discussions like this will never go anywhere.

Maybe we can take the first step by trying to stop labelling people as a particular style and instead call everyone "Roleplayers" without adding any prefixes. Because at the end of the day, isn't it Roleplay we come here for?

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36 minutes ago, Kenyi said:

It's curious to see the constant back and forth on Rule 2.3. On the one hand, I regularly see people posting "We have a rule for this, if you feel like it's happening, use that rule." but the moment the rule is actually used by a group there's a immediate follow-up about "how rule 2.3 is only used for blackmail/OOC reasoning."

Personally, I'm on the side that there has to be somekind of rule set in place for when things go overboard. The implementation/wording of it can surely be refined further, but there has to be a hard limit to prevent people from being basically "bullied" out of the game.

However, altering or removing 2.3 isn't going to fix the problem as a whole. The fundamental difference in mentality that continues to divides this community to this day will still be present. It's the same difference in mentality that makes a portion of the community roleplaying out injuries after a firefight while another portion of it come back with no indication of even having been in one. There's a massive difference in priorities that often cause the friction that we've been experiencing since the Standalone (I don't remember it being as bad in the Mod Days, but then again, my memory has become rather hazy on how the community was at the time. I mostly remember the excellent roleplay and less division in the community).

I'm also seeing a lot of "if you don't want to PvP, just comply" arguments. But say that everyone complies every single time. Suddenly the HostileRPers would constantly have to deal with giving RP every single encounter, something that has a tendency rapidly degrades over time because there's only so much hostile actions to take before you start repeating yourself. That would cause the exact same problems as people never complying (staleRP, no real satisfaction for at least one of the parties involved).

There is a lack of wanting to deal with consequences of IC actions all across the board. This is not limited to the dreaded CampfireRPers (which, hilariously enough, seem to be complained about more often than the equally dreaded HostileRPers nowadays). That ever present Us vs Them is what is the real, deep-rooted issue in all this and as long as we're unable to bring this community together (despite efforts being made, like @Ryan Shepherd making bootleg interviews that primarily feature the more hostile side of the community, giving people insight into the actual person behind the character) discussions like this will never go anywhere.

Maybe we can take the first step by trying to stop labelling people as a particular style and instead call everyone "Roleplayers" without adding any prefixes. Because at the end of the day, isn't it Roleplay we come here for?

Couldn't agree more. I dont mind hostile RP but I'd like to see some good RP with it. 

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

One cannot blackmail you with a report for a rule break if you haven't broken that rule. That doesn't make any sense.

So this thread must mean that OP knows his group has broken or is borderlining the rule, because that's the only situation where one would be worried about enemy threatening with a 2.3 report. Any other group which has not broken any rule would know it's a baseless claim and move on, not try to have the rule removed.

thinking think GIF

400 IQ

Thank you for speaking what most of us are thinking. 

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13 minutes ago, Roland said:

One cannot blackmail you with a report for a rule break if you haven't broken that rule. That doesn't make any sense.

So this thread must mean that OP knows his group has broken or is borderlining the rule, because that's the only situation where one would be worried about enemy threatening with a 2.3 report. Any other group which has not broken any rule would know it's a baseless claim and move on, not try to have the rule removed.

thinking think GIF

400 IQ

Rolle after the last 2.3 and how it went down people are going to be paranoid. How 20+ peps got punish and only one allowed to post and a bunch of people that were inactive.

 

Just look at @Jean never did enything hostile and got pked

 

Thats why people dosent like 2.3 rule dosent make sense and need a removal or be rewritten

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Roland said:

One cannot blackmail you with a report for a rule break if you haven't broken that rule. That doesn't make any sense.

So this thread must mean that OP knows his group has broken or is borderlining the rule, because that's the only situation where one would be worried about enemy threatening with a 2.3 report. Any other group which has not broken any rule would know it's a baseless claim and move on, not try to have the rule removed.

thinking think GIF

400 IQ

You claim they are borderline breaking it but like boris said, look at the last 2.3 report. That was an absolute shambles you just catagorised everyone on the roster under the same banner and punished everyone campfire roleplayer and PvPer alike without actually taking the time or making the effort to deal with it properly resulting in the death of thousands of hours of roleplay in an instant.

 

The last report wasn’t looked into properly and since it’s the only one posted public ally and the only one we have to go off so what in God’s mind explains you stating we shouldn’t be paranoid? What will be different this time when we’re falsely accused again but get approved? A lot of us have 0 points yet we are and have still been threatened with a perm ban just for being on two rosters? How do you justify stating that we should move on when you are the one holding a noose around our neck?

If you want the server to run seamlessly you need to allow roleplay to develop and stop holding people’s hands who don’t like getting beat. Or stop giving them a weapon to use when they don’t like the consequences of their actions just like the last public report.

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2.3 allows people to big dick and shit talk without any repercussions because those people know if they get attacked for their actions they'll just get the enemy banned/PK'd via 2.3 and claim they survived or won a war.

 

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59 minutes ago, WombatLover69 said:

Rolle after the last 2.3 and how it went down people are going to be paranoid. How 20+ peps got punish and only one allowed to post and a bunch of people that were inactive.

 

Just look at @Jean never did enything hostile and got pked

 

Thats why people dosent like 2.3 rule dosent make sense and need a removal or be rewritten

 

 

 

FYI groups could be force archived in the past as well, before there was anything called rule 2.3. Some people in the group fuck up, everyone gets to feel the punishment. That's just how it is.

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2 minutes ago, Hofer said:

FYI groups could be force archived in the past as well, before there was anything called rule 2.3. Some people in the group fuck up, everyone gets to feel the punishment. That's just how it is.

Yes groups went through a process. If they get x amount of points in x time then they get put on group final. Difference is it was to do with rulebreaks and point count not for them attacking groups.

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2 minutes ago, WongRP said:

Yes groups went through a process. If they get x amount of points in x time then they get put on group final. Difference is it was to do with rulebreaks and point count not for them attacking groups.

I don't have any examples at the moment, but I am 100% sure that I remember instances where there were groups around that we closed down due to their lack of interest in roleplay and only focus on PvP. I'm gonna have a dig through the group forums for examples.

However. 2.3 should never be used as blackmail, and in my honest opinion if someone uses it as blackmail, record and report. That should also be a banable offense. If not banable, the person/group using it as blackmail needs to be told otherwise.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, WongRP said:

2.3 allows people to big dick and shit talk without any repercussions because those people know if they get attacked for their actions they'll just get the enemy banned/PK'd via 2.3 and claim they survived or won a war.

 

I have not seen any instance of this happening but if someone does do that, report them. Simple as that. We dont need to remove or adjust the rule because a few people are abusing it. The rule is there to keep PvP focussed groups in check and turn the focus towards RP. Not constant PvP over minor stuff. 

And if someone is shit talking you, ignore them. Be the bigger man. Let them talk. They will slip up and you will have your chance.

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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The 2.3 rule on its face needs to remain in the game. At the moment it is the rule that protects players from malicious IC actions driven by OOC issues, from constant harassment IC to the point of being unable to enjoy the game, and from RP turning into nothing but a stale cycle of being hostage or dead. 

 

  • If you are guilty of 2.3 and are being blackmailed with it, stop breaking 2.3.
  • If you are not guilty of 2.3 and are being blackmailed with it, don't sweat it. You aren't guilty. 
  • If you don't know if you are guilty of breaking 2.3 and are being blackmailed with it, stop the actions that you aren't sure of are within the rules.

 

This isn't hard hard. Err on the side of caution, just like we do right now with initiations and reinitiating when you aren't sure who someone is or if they heard you. If you aren't sure if you are 2.3'ing someone and they are making noises like you are, maybe don't go taking the fight to them again, or starting shit. See if they start shit with you first.

Blackmailing is already listed as a ban worthy action that warrants a permanent removal from the community. If you have evidence you are being blackmailed, you should submit it via support ticket to the admin team for review.

 

I have sympathy to those members of groups that lost characters due to the group being 2.3'd that had nothing to do with the hostilities. But that seems to me like its a by-design consequence. The goal of that in my eyes is to have group members enforce the rules on themselves. Accountability starts with the group leader to set a good example and play within the scope of our rules. Keep your members from curbstomping other groups continuously if you are worried about getting 2.3'd.

 

I really find it ironic how people saying 2.3 is the devils bane and killing the server. Yet its a common refrain to throw around 'report it if you don't like it'. And I have heard of far more people leaving due to the overabundance of stale and boring PVP then I have from the rules. Unless they got permed for breaking rules. 

 

I think 2.3 needs to be around because of players OOC emotions/history getting into their IC. Its super easy to rationalize and justify any RP interaction, and people can easily hide behind the veil of 'its what my character would do' to justify IC hostilities that are motivated OOCly. 

 

13 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

And if someone is shit talking you, ignore them. Be the bigger man. Let them talk. They will slip up and you will have your chance.

 

Wholeheartedly disagree with you. If someone is shit talking, they've thrown away their right to complain about the consequences. If you are on the 'losing' side of conflict in a 2.3 situation and you are start throwing shade or starting fights, you are invalidating the 2.3 in my eyes, and should deserve the consequences you get. Don't hide behind the rule and use it as armor.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Rover said:

Wholeheartedly disagree with you. If someone is shit talking, they've thrown away their right to complain about the consequences. If you are on the 'losing' side of conflict in a 2.3 situation and you are start throwing shade or starting fights, you are invalidating the 2.3 in my eyes, and should deserve the consequences you get. Don't hide behind the rule and use it as armor.

 

 

And that's fair. But retaliating with constant raids and attacks all because they started shit talking and hurting one's ego, doesn't justify breaking rule 2.3

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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1 minute ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

And that's fair. But retaliating with constant raids and attacks all because they started shit talking and hurting one's ego, doesn't justify breaking rule 2.3

IDKKK hiding behind a rule wall while acting big is pretty rough.

Theres a million other ways to handle assholes ic.

When groups band together against, one large group it's pretty dope.

When a group who's losing a fight makes a roleplay deal with the other group or even tries to negotiate it's pretty dope.

When basically any roleplay scenario happens that doesn't involve talking shit while hiding behind a rule it's pretty dope. 

I'm not talking about any specific scenario here as i've been gone for a bit, but i've had it happen a lot in the past. Everyone wants to play a badass hard motherfucker but when push comes to shove and they can't back it up, or don't want to try follow through with the roleplay in other ways outside of straight fighting, it gets dumb. Continues a cycle of , talk shit, get attacked, get mad, run up , regear, talk shit , get attacked etc etc etc. 

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6 minutes ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

And that's fair. But retaliating with constant raids and attacks all because they started shit talking and hurting one's ego, doesn't justify breaking rule 2.3

You are correct, it doesn't. 

However I would find it very hard to believe that the only provocation was one instance of shit-talking, then a storm of constant raid and attacks. I suspect there was probably continued shit-talking. Or other actions. I mean, if I was playing a hardened bandit character I'd keep doing it until I got a humiliating apology from the person then I'd stop. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, UndeadRP said:

I'm not talking about any specific scenario here as i've been gone for a bit, but i've had it happen a lot in the past. Everyone wants to play a badass hard motherfucker but when push comes to shove and they can't back it up, or don't want to try follow through with the roleplay in other ways outside of straight fighting, it gets dumb. Continues a cycle of , talk shit, get attacked, get mad, run up , regear, talk shit , get attacked etc etc etc. 

Then the Report wars happen. But I have yet to see any instance of Rule 2.3 being used in such a negative way. No one has provided proof, yet, of people using it to "blackmail" either. One person here said, "The reason you don't see 2.3 reports is because they are dealt with before the report is up, they will come at the group and tell them to stop going to them or they would report them, which again seems very blackmail-ish." I want to see proof this happens. 

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Rover said:

You are correct, it doesn't. 

However I would find it very hard to believe that the only provocation was one instance of shit-talking, then a storm of constant raid and attacks. I suspect there was probably continued shit-talking. Or other actions. I mean, if I was playing a hardened bandit character I'd keep doing it until I got a humiliating apology from the person then I'd stop. 

Shit talking alone, no matter how many times it happens, doesn't justify constant raids and attacks. You are simply feeding into what the other person wants. Now if they keep shooting at you or attacking in retaliation then fuck them. Go at them. But just verbal insults? That's giving in to their wishes. When my people were raided once, all the attackers did was call us the N-word a lot and play music through their mics. We just ignored them. Be the bigger man. 

But please clarify for me and our fellow players, you wouldn't break Rule 2.3 over verbal insults, correct? 

Edited by Crimson_Tiger

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