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Major

What do you want from us?

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This thread is half level-minded rant and half inquiry so just bear with me and read the whole thing before you respond and I'll read all of your responses.

So I'm making this thread not because I'm cynical and burned out or anything like that, if I was that way I wouldn't make this thread, but rather because we are at something of a crossroads. @Phatal is about to go on break for a little while to get settled into school and new stuff, which is well-fucking deserved and the fact that most of you people haven't given him a lick of a chance to actually do the job and just write him off as some guy who just happens to occupy the same position as me is a fairly sad statement as to the state of things. Of course that's partially due to me hanging in this position for so long and trying to scrape by and actually be in-game and see what's up and try and move things in a productive direction. Phatal outright ran the Prodejna Series until he was physically incapable of doing so, and if it weren't for him the Molotok thread wouldn't have happened because I got stuck on the objectives. 

On that topic I'm basically left with trying to get an enormous whitelisted event back on track after certain people didn't do what they said they would, which is fine I've already yelled and screamed in LM chat and me and Rolando have kissed and made up. We either just whitelist people in two weeks or whenever for the event based on what phases they were going to take part in, in fact we may just open the event up entirely to those people for all phases given how tepid the actual response to the event was. We barely got enough people wanting to take place in the first half at any rate. Which is fine, it's an event that's meant for people to come and enjoy if they want, and I'll just take that as a sign that the community prefers another type of event, which is fine I'm not necessarily going to insist upon shoving a massive PvP event down people's throat every month. ToeZ gave a great suggestion in the event Discord which I'll leave below:

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He's right. And I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out how to have events and Lore stuff that is more centered and helpful to the actual shape of things on the ground for players. Problem is that people do not like Lore or staff getting involved and making events that force or otherwise influence their stories. I am not at all opposed to doing stuff that can get more people involved, but I really need the Council to discuss this type of thing and then I'll read it. 

There seems to be a resurgence of people asking for World Lore entries and specifically clarification on pre-Outbreak Lore. 

Also, keep in mind that I am functionally just a community member, despite the fact I'm an LM. I can make canon Lore all day, I can post events large and small, but if Rolle doesn't have time or something happens then whitelisting for big events can go tits up, volunteers might not show, or any number of technical things that can go wrong WILL. I'm not trying to go after Rolle, the man's got two growing kids and a waifu, a job, and runs this place and has a number of more important stuff like site work, dev shit, mod stuff, and general stuff that goes on. 

LM's have not had tools since February, and while I have blown my vocal cords out asking for them I'm just not going to anymore. GM's occasionally have tools and many if not most have proffered event advice and offered help. Problem is that Rolle and Jim want large events over smaller dynamic ones. People are also much less likely to volunteer for these events for some reason. We have TONS of things written on the event front but the problem is that support for said events can sometime be lacking. In the meantime I made the thread for OREL and got them in-game so that we actually have Lore Factions running around that can influence things.

So this is why I say I'm honestly just a member of the community with some perks, and I really want to help the community and do stuff that isn't only fun in the short term but also long-term things that we can build on. A lot of people have discussed a Lore jump and at the 1000 day mark we are going to be doing a Lore Part 2 which is going to mark a major shift in the Lore and properly take us to that wasted future so many want. Me, Phatal, and the rest of you have no shortage of ideas about how to go forward, and despite some calls for a wipe which tend to get outvoted we want to build on what we've managed to accomplish. I love doing this even if there are limitations and issues to be faced, If I didn't I wouldn't have hung onto this little pink tag and stuck around like chlamydia since Jamie added me as I graduated high school and then on through the various LM teams as I have done college right up until now.

So by all means, drop your opinion, ideas, wants, desires, and ambitions below and help me make them happen with what's at my disposal. Thanks guys. ❤️ 

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I am a huge fan of your lore work - in fact, I created a character for one of the lore events concerning the BPR about a year ago - and it worked so well, I continued playing him, he is certainly my "main" character now... He would not have worked this way at all though if the lore was less thought-through, less detailled or less well developed. IMHO, you give us players amazing RP opportunities with the background information you provide, and I truly wish more players would consider a more lore-focussed playstyle. I never felt like being limited by the lore, the opposite is the case honestly! For me, the detailled background information (and when people actually adhere to it ingame) create a wholly different level of immersion than the random, spontaneuous banter, trade- and campfire-RP.

90% of my most memorable RP servers here have evolved from Ilya meeting other "close-to-the-lore" characters, such as CDF, NAPA, UN, WHO etc. ... For those characters, all the background on those factions helps to  immediately develop a tension and a much more realistic feeling of conflict, fear, emotion, and so on. 

I would absolutely love to see the background lore to become more present in the everyday RP on the server, to become more meaningful, and especially to also affect characters apart from the ''old'' factions... I dont think this would limit the RP possibilities of anyone at all, compared to how it can enhance RP and immersion, but that is just my opinion... which unfortunately does not count too much probably, as I wont be able to play for quite a while anyway. Still wanted to leave my thoughts here, just because I am a big fan of the lore, and I think the server deserves to see more of what @Phatal and you have in mind, @Major 🙂

 

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Posted (edited)

@Major at first the gratitude goes to you @Phatal and anyone that has something to do with the Lore. LM was is and always will be ungratefull position. Got some friends as LM on our NWN RP server when i was within the staff so I know its not that common to se somenone of LM to have such feels.

Ungratefull its because the LM creations as for the events are driven by community mood. If they accept it or not as if its not fiting for thé gameplay or characters then they mostly will not.

The problem atm is general from within the community  not by LM nor the staff generaly.  

At this very moment lore is not prio here if i look at the groups or groups ideas offten i can see something that is with sweet talk somehow working yet it is being forced to somehow fit the lore and somehow to justify to fit into lore and not start from lore itself.

For me LM's are doing great job the community setup  does not simply support it.  

I dont even think the RP is at the level of serioussnes to support lore.

I know many are going to disagree with me its just my opinion.

PS. Keep up the good work there are people here that apreciate it.

 

Edited by PaulB

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Hey that's me! MUM I'M ON TV!

No but seriously, I stand by what I said and will further the point here: I believe that big events can be a thing, and i'm sure like you say, you have stuff set up and in the works that just requires a lot of commitment and trust and likely a lot of backup plans. It's hard work, and I think we do, or at least should, appreciate that. 

Whilst personally I loved the concept of the war between the two factions, it simply made no IC sense for my character to go for it either way, and on an OOC level I wasn't too bothered about a PVP Event to a point where I didn't want to make another character just to play for it, because it wouldn't develop my story lines. I think the key to getting people interested, dedicated and involved in big lore events is always to give an incentive, dangle a reward or a prize in front of our faces. Now obviously that is going to be difficult, you don't want to be just doing events for a few guns or whatever, and you don't want to take it OOC. I know that with the development a little while ago and the reports of large hoards making their way over from the NE, there is an incentive to have the upper hand in that battle, or sway that battle. Let's be honest as well, everyone just wants to be seen, to be remembered, to be acknowledged and have a name for themselves. Maybe some of these things can be taken and used. 

I think it all boils down to a simple formula;

Issue -> 1 or more resolutions leading to different results -> Reward or consequence. 

This works for anything negative, for example the hordes, if maybe radio broadcasts go out and it is organised that certain things need to be accomplished in order to slow the horde, and if the horde is slowed then maybe supplies etc. can be dropped for the people that clearly slowed them etc. ACTION = REWARD. The RP along the way built from this should be gently guided and as long as the people participating in said event / action have any sense about them should be building their own RP from the gentle push given by the event. 

I don't want to write too much more before I just start building ideas for Lore events etc etc. However I think that the overall issue at the minute is this: Everything feels hunky dory. This is the apocalypse, and yet it feels like we can all walk around without too much of a worry because we've all hunkered down into our own spots. The events need to bring a gritty, desperate feeling in my eyes, things need to get notably worse if something is failed, something that people can be miserable about, something that can keep people talking. 

I don't know the answers, I'll continue to brainstorm some stuff to try and develop further on these little points, let's move things forward and make the events something progressive in terms of the grit and overall atmosphere of the server.
 

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Posted (edited)

Theres nothing anyone can do if people don't want to take partin big events that require whitelisting, I understand why people don't. It's possibly the same reason I don't and some of my friends don't. We don't need to, we already have our own RP going on and having fun with that. So for me personally  I don't want to sign up for something like that, I feel many people are the same. What I think could be beneficial for you Major and Phatal is starting small. So come up with an idea, then start it without anyone knowing, example.

A character runs into Kab, he tells a bunch of people that his family have been kidnapped. He heard his kidnappers say they were going to Lopatino Castle. People go there, confront them and RP happens. It ends in whatever way it does, again the same thing but this time Cherno, another kidnapping. People go help the person out blah blah and its over. You do small little random events like this, and you build into bigger events. This will give people more of a reason to sign up. So say for this example it leads to a group being made about some sadistic men and woman who go about kidnappnig and hurting people, cliche I know but its only an example. Then your bigger events could include people going on the offensive against them, just a simple example.

I think what you and the staff team have to aim for is creating small random events on the fly that people end up attending without them really knowing, some will know straight away ofcourse but hopefully you get the idea. Cause like you said right now, the bigger events are not working out. So start smaller, and build up, generate interest through weeks of smaller events. Once you capture peoples imaginations and there interested, bigger events will then be possible. Right now you have the OREL group and hopefully those guys and yourself can create some small random events that could spark a storyline that people could get hooked on, and then build from there.

Unfortunately a lot of the work you have done with the lore stories doesn't actually affect what people do IG, even though its good and an interesting read, it doesn't impact the server. So I think if you shift your energy and focus onto 'What can I do that will impact the server?' you will start getting better results, but it should be everyones job to impact the server. Every group made should be trying to effect the server in some way, far to many groups get made and then they just go off and RP by themselves and with small amounts of people. They don't impact the server in anyway and for the most part are just taking up slots as far as I'm concerned. The groups I've been in in the past, we always tried to impact the server, most recently Cerna Liska and Dead Batteries. Both groups impacted the server and we had a lot going with other groups as well and now I am trying to do the same with Domorodci. So I feel your pain and a lot of other people do as well.

I believe if you and the staff team can do some smaller random events, come up with ideas that make an impact on the server and we the community engage more with each other on the servers and try to include as many stories with different people and groups then we can create a better and more enjoyable experience for everyone. Also I do think that LM's should have server tools as well, they should be able to fly around the map and look at whats going on, that would help out a lot I believe.

Edited by Craig

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Posted (edited)

TLDR. 

Just kidding.

Lore stuff is fun to read. I like it. It adds to the stories of those who are here for the more in-depth role-play. The issue with these large scale events and why people don't want to be in them? RCON messages are boring as fuck. No one wants to read about a big super cool explosion. They want to physically see it. People want to see these jets strafing these strongholds like they do in the lore. They want to see the VDV troops actually paradropping into Chernarus. They want to see APCs rolling around an area because the military wants something from the region. They want to see the map change if a city gets bombed from being a part of one of these events. The issue isn't with the staff itself. The issue lies within the lack of vehicles, features, and admin tools not being granted to the lore-masters. 

This was even highlighted as the issue when Anarchy was a group. We didn't feel like being scared of the big bad gobermunt men because they could do nothing to us. There was no physical presence. No threat of being blown to bits by a drone or air-strike. You get the gist. 

Edited by Zero

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I think with all events planned you need Pro's and Cons depending how the event goes 

Some people then might want to help make the event fail because it benefits their group with the outcome whereas some will help the event to succeed for the benefits that come with a successful event.

I don't think the pros and cons should be interms of items but interms of the server itself.

A horde event for example:

Successfully stop the horde -

Pros: Movement of (staff) trader groups from chernarus that will bring better quality of items due to being able to scavenge areas once not available.
Cons: Less wildlife in south zagoria for a limited amount of time due to them being scared off, lowered ammo spawns until the traders can resupply the area

Unsuccessful in stopping the horde -

Pros: New faction created in Russia due to the horde moving away and allowing the area to thrive and eventually come to Chernarus
Cons: Greater spawn rates of infected on the server, lots of equipment trampled so spawning in damaged/badly damaged (guns etc.)

 

That's just an idea that may help in spicing up some events and would allow characters to pick sides and think about what outcome would benefit them/their group most

 

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I'd like to quickly point out in regards to the people who are posting 'pro's and con's'. The pro's and con's of the Molotok Event were posted on the thread itself, as it will directly effect how quickly the CDF respond not only to the future horde event, but also to the takistani border skirmishes.

As far as vehicles, map changes, etc. Go. I agree, I miss being able to edit the map, use apc, jets, etc. But this isn't Arma 2. And, some people suggested hosting the event on A3, but lets be honest for a second. I struggled to get 6 volunteers for the peaceful Prodejna event. We got 1/4th the amount of whitelisters we were hoping for as far as Molotok is concerned. Trying to port over to A3 for 1 event would just make the retention rate even worse. Sadly, we need to work with what we have. Admin tools, for dynamic stuff, are of course up to Rolle.

Thank you for the feedback so far, we are actively reading to see what you guys want, as we can't seem to get an accurate read. Some people want interesting pvp events, some want small group specific events, some don't want events, some want world lore, and some people want things that simply can't be accomplished at the moment.

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I agree with @Craig that small-time events are the way to go forward. The world is very dynamic, and my group (The Runners) who is currently running the town of Kabanino have A LOT of our RP going on ourselves, whether it be hanging out with other groups, random people who heard of us that wants to come visit / trade. Or those filthy Chernarussians nationalists(Looking at you @Craig<3) who comes for a fight, or our own internal RP. With all that going on it is just very simply hard to really put ourselves into a big lore-event (atleast in my case), if not because my lack of time, then atleast because my character got his own shite to deal with on the daily.

But, if a small time event happened, let's take Craigs example: A man runs into Kabanino, screaming atop of his lungs that his friends has been kidnapped by a few armed men" that is something my group could instantly get into, something we could do right at that moment, something that wouldn't stray away from what we're trying to achieve, which is a peaceful trade post and everything surrounding it.

So I agree with Craigs point, that maybe atleast for a time there should be a focus on more small-time dynamic events, rather than the big story driven ones.

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I want you guys to have tools.

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16 minutes ago, Eagle said:

I want you guys to have tools.

Me too boo. And based off the responses to this thread dynamic LM-GM fueled dynamic events are what is gonna have to happen.

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I think more events that pop up ig would be great and dynamic. While the OOC planned events have been great they take too much time to set up and make sure everyone is there and deal with all the hassle of setting up the event, but if an Rcon message from a loremaster was to pop up it would create for great RP without much ooc prep to it.

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I think the dynamic events are definitely the way to go and try to push the lore forward. I 100% trust in you guys to be capable of doing whatever you set out to do, and the things you've done so far are nothing short of amazing.

I'm willing to work with you guys and Rolle to find a solution for the lack of tools that you can utilize, be that special LM tools or whatever will make both parties happy and able to do their work.

I personally feel that the whole running around and finding people to rp with for a few moments is getting a bit stale for some members, including me, and I don't know if a lore reset or jump, or even just a map change will do much to freshen up things in the long term.

But as I said, I fully trust in you, the LM team, with whatever you decide to do. I'm also hoping for a lot more cooperation between your team and the development team in the future.

Coming together is a beginning; keeping together is progress; working together is success.

or something along those lines. ❤️

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While the little dynamic events (which mostly consists of spawning wolves/zombies) seem to be the more popular choice, the problem with it is that all those events are primarily focused around bigger groups. Hell, in in El Presidente's stream I remember hearing that "just two people weren't really interesting to look at". And I get that, you want to entertain as many people as you want, but that always leaves a portion of the server missing out on dynamic events. Not only that, with the current dynamic events the risk of death is something that the GMs/admins try to avoid, because while the community is all too happy to get hordes spawning, if they actually face odds that could end up killing them there's often the complaint that it was a unfair death. It's such a fine line to walk that it's simply impossible to make lore-specific dynamic events because people are not keen on dying during PvE events.

I think that one larger, overarching planned event preluded by various short-term dynamic goals would probably at least give the LM team something to work towards and be appreciated for rather than most of their work receiving a 'lackluster' response from the community (See: Molotok event. Which sucks, because you guys put in some good effort and I was looking forward).

To give a example: There's a radio call for people to start bringing in ammunition for the CDF/OREL to support them in thinning the massive horde event. People will have x amount of days to deliver as much ammunition as they can. After that consequences based on their (in)actions will be enforced.

Didn't bring in enough ammo? The CDF/OREL were unable to thin the horde and instead caused the horde to splinter and have small pockets more aggressively roam the province. Have GMs/Admins spawn more hordes near people as often as they/are willing to to show that their actions have consequence. If they get overwhelmed and die to it? That's a consequence. Brought enough ammunition? The CDF and OREL now have surplus that they can start redistributing it to prepare the willing populace after successfully thinning the horde and in turn making a event that would be set to happen on a specific date months from now a little easier (less waves of zombies, the removal of a "surprise" element during one of the waves etc).

Hell, let the LM team have influence over the spawnrates. Have a event happen where most canned food has officially expired and in turn reduce the spawn rate of canned food drastically for a certain amount of time and give the community a goal to achieve to have a fresh supply come in from some source. Let them have the ability to say that a odd heatwave has hit Chernarus and have the temperature be cranked up for a certain amount of time while the LM works in the background to involve a lore event with this. Or like @Craig suggested, smaller events where there's somekind of immediate consequence/decision tied to.

I know this requires a equal amount of effort on the developer/admin side but that's currently the only way I would feel it garnering enough support within the community. That and LMs should definitely deserve tools equal to that of GMs at least so they have a more active hand in trying to further the lore (Which I actually thought they had up to this point).

 

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Give me the LM tag, let me help ya bratr.

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3 minutes ago, StagsviewRB said:

Give me the LM tag, let me help ya bratr.

Yes please. This is a good idea!

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5 minutes ago, StagsviewRB said:

Give me the LM tag, let me help ya bratr.

@Roland

Make this happen, and oh, uh, give me tools while you at it. tyty

Staggs put in a staff app so they know.

Major-Staggsy-Phatal LM team best team

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9 minutes ago, Major said:

@Roland

Make this happen, and oh, uh, give me tools while you at it. tyty

Staggs put in a staff app so they know.

Major-Staggsy-Phatal LM team best team

This is the Holy Trinity that the LM team needs 

NEEDS TO HAPPEN NOW 

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28 minutes ago, StagsviewRB said:

Give me the LM tag, let me help ya bratr.

Could easily make the best events, would love to see you as LM 

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1. Give the LM's their tools. Seriously.

2. Events should be hosted on active servers, not separate hives, they should be a middle ground between large scale and small dynamic events and effect more than just a succeed? Y/N outcome. 

3. Recruit Staggs.

4. Profit. 

In all seriousness though, you're doing your jobs well, but I think perspective has been lost and interest testing should be done beforehand. Operation Molotok was interesting but injects a story line into otherwise already established stories. Get involved with groups and random groups of survivors, add to their experiences and drop threads to a greater tapestry in the process. I have so many ideas but none that I'll just word-vomit here, food for thought.   

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Posted (edited)

Lots of discussion here already but I'm gonna put in my piece. I don't think big events is the way to go. I think small events with big impacts. Events that don't require a lot of people or resources but still shift the lore or progress enough to get people talking for the day IC about what happened. Maybe it inspires a new group. 

You could have the biggest war but if it doesnt have a large story impact it won't mean much for more than like a week to the people involved.

Edited by Glitch

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