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Squillium

Allow Megaphones to be More Viable

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When megaphones were first introduced I immediately thought it'd be a great fit for DayZRP, as many times in movies and tv hostage negotiations are done over megaphones. More practically, it makes it easy for an initiation to be clearly heard and for everyone in an area to know exactly what's going on and allow them to decide how to react. Instead of embracing a new mechanic, megaphones were almost made impossible to use for an initiation without breaking rule 4.1, as for some reason initiations need to be a very intimate experience at all times. I'm not saying 1 guy should initiate on a compound full of 20 people, but if a reasonable force has an ability to take a heavily defended and fortified compound it lacks all common sense to force one person to go up the gates and be a sacrificial lamb so the rest get kill rights. Nit picky rules like this are what drove many people from the server before beta, and I believe removing it would allow for more enjoyable large scale conflicts. 

I'm not saying a simple "everyone put your hands up" would suffice, but if a group goes "We are <group name>, everyone in <obligatory place> put your hands up as you are now surrounded by <random number of men>" there is literally no reason to make that invalid. It would give the defenders a chance to actually think and either comply or possibly call the initiators bluff. Situations like this are what make RP in DayZ fun and basically forcing people to initiate face to face at all times is completely unrealistic and makes 0 sense in many scenarios.

That being said I understand why PA systems or radios can't be used as that covers far to big of an area and has no indication of where an initiation is coming from.

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Posted (edited)

yeah the way people have to initiate with the megaphone seems so unnatural and dumb. People need to give their location, group, appearance, social security number, height, eye color, and state if they have any medical conditions to have a valid initiation. And people literally sit there and make a checklist of the things you say so that if you miss 1 criteria they can report it as invalid. 

Not to mention the thing of the person having to be visible doesnt even really makes sense. As long as the people who are getting initiated on know whats happening it should be fine. Otherwise you have to send someone to basically suicide and stand out in the open

Edited by Gatorr

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Personally I feel that official groups who have clear identifying features should be more than capable of initiating using a megaphone, it would be amazing RP for groups like CDF, OREL, Potius, Legion or legitimately any other easily recognizable/sizable force to surround a building/compound and instruct it's inhabitants to surrender their arms.

 

In my eyes the rule should be rephrased or changed to allow megaphone initiations as long as the following criteria is met:

1. It is clear who is being initiated on

2. It is clear who the initiators are

 

That is the core of any initiation, defining who gets defender rights and who gets attacker rights.

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After reading the silliness of the report regarding the megaphone, I can't help but agree that it's a little overkill with how it is handled in game.

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Posted (edited)

As entertaining as it was, back in the Winter of 2018, when I had my general store in Kabanino; with the town being initiated on every day of the week, I still to this day would rather keep the current rules regarding those kinds of initiations. So, -1 from me. Sorry.

Also, there's this, Roland pretty much explained it...

20181228165058_1.jpg.3e4d1d5e41e9e06f1c7af99bf85522f5.jpg

Edited by CamoRP
Added photo.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, CamoRP said:

As entertaining as it was, back in the Winter of 2018, when I had my general store in Kabanino; with the town being initiated on every day of the week, I still to this day would rather keep the current rules regarding those kinds of initiations. So, -1 from me. Sorry.

Also, there's this, Roland pretty much explained it...

20181228165058_1.jpg.3e4d1d5e41e9e06f1c7af99bf85522f5.jpg

People having to see you is asking too much, there's no reason for it. You hear an initiation, you make a decision over whether you should comply or not.

Edited by Squillium

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+1

I believe the Megaphone should be used more often and more professionally. It gives people the option to leave too. If you are approaching and are and someone with a megaphone is telling you to leave or face detainment, then it gives people enough time to reconsider their choices and run or surrender. Initiation should be allowed with a megaphone but like a good initiation, there should be an alternative, turn back or surrender. You know? 

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Megaphones used as general initiation tools are basically report magnets. Nobody can use them correctly and the correct applications are vague at best, being subject to specific context. I don't think the megaphone should be used as an initiation tool at all because they have a range that is shaky at best, and as we've seen in the past it's nothing but a pain in the ass for the admins every time a group of lazy bums pulls their "everyone in this town drop your guns or die" crap. 

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Just now, Cherryfeather said:

Megaphones used as general initiation tools are basically report magnets. Nobody can use them correctly and the correct applications are vague at best, being subject to specific context. I don't think the megaphone should be used as an initiation tool at all because they have a range that is shaky at best, and as we've seen in the past it's nothing but a pain in the ass for the admins every time a group of lazy bums pulls their "everyone in this town drop your guns or die" crap. 

It's realistic, literally the point of a megaphone. It's not perfect but if an initiation is heard I don't see the problem.

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Alternatively if you find a method to interact through PMs with a group leader or an OOC medium to communicate through to engage a scenario/initiate would it be then considered metagaming? I'm not rock solid on the defender-attacker rights as they pertain to in character interactions but if you mutually agree to get into a gunfight with set terms what's stopping that?

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I never fully understood this rule.

You can't use the megaphone in most cases because people won't know who is initiating, from where and how many they are, but you can run in middle of Kab, drop a fat "Everyone put your hands up or die!" in chat and that would be perfectly fine although achieving the exact same thing.

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8 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

I never fully understood this rule.

You can't use the megaphone in most cases because people won't know who is initiating, from where and how many they are, but you can run in middle of Kab, drop a fat "Everyone put your hands up or die!" in chat and that would be perfectly fine although achieving the exact same thing.

This.

I have seen countless initiations where someone is hiding behind a wall and initiates by yelling or they will just type it in text because the location can not be identified yet its not against the rules. Megaphone initiations should be valid imo with the points brought up in this thread.

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+1 to this.

I don't see what's wrong using an megaphone to initiate aslong as the criterias mentioned by you is spoken out loud. 
 "We are <group name>, everyone in <obligatory place> put your hands up as you are now surrounded by <random number of men>"

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6 hours ago, AndreyQ said:

I never fully understood this rule.

You can't use the megaphone in most cases because people won't know who is initiating, from where and how many they are, but you can run in middle of Kab, drop a fat "Everyone put your hands up or die!" in chat and that would be perfectly fine although achieving the exact same thing.

No you can't since no one knows who you are unless they know you ic making the initiation invalid.

You'd need to VoIP then text if you want it to be clear with text.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Squillium said:

People having to see you is asking too much, there's no reason for it. You hear an initiation, you make a decision over whether you should comply or not.

I legit had an initiation this week where I chose to peek and show myself instead of hiding over the wall. Guess what happened? He shot me because he could see me. I agree with @Squillium when he says a necessity to be within sight is too much. Even though it's a tad unorthodox in the RP, as long as it's clear WHO is initiating and WHO is being initiated on I don't care. Like "This is Legion, everybody put your hands up" etc. (Legion was the first group that came to mind). 

Edited by APositivePara

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Posted (edited)

To have better grounds for discussion, let me actually quote the rule:

Quote

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

 

Megaphones are almost useless due to wording of this rule, unless you want to say "Hi!" or keep it completely non-hostile (is a stern warning to stay away already possibly hostile action or the grounds for it?).

I can only suggest a notable rework or rewording to incorporate PA or megaphone into initiations in an organic fashion that still allows clarity for situations, not random ass town initiations that are non-specific on who is targeted (or why) and from who it might be.

I think it's anything but organic to completely rule this out ("cannot be done remotely", a megaphone I count as remotely) forcing to you ... what? Always run up to your (potential) opponents and yell at them, giving a potential tactical advantage away?

 

An organic way I can imagine is (depends on the where, who, etc) you decide to attack a camp, and address the camp specifically while you, as attacker group, say that for example they are surrounded. This gives them the heads up that the attacking party is around them, without them saying "oh and by the way, we are East and North in the hills of your camp with men wearing the following: (....)!"

 

I say: Open up the megaphone for this, keep it specific without spilling everything out, specific enough to make it clear to the involved parties, without it becoming silly due to hard requirements.

 

Simple terms: If it basically is clear and apparent enough for the involved parties, it should be a viable tool. If not, one should refrain from using that in a specific situation until the situation becomes clear enough where usage would be fine.

Edited by Combine

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Posted (edited)

+1

As long as the initiators explain who they're initiating on and who they are.

If you dont know what position your iniators are at it's your fault you didnt keep an eye out. Walking through a dangerous area should not be a walk in the park.

Reasons I believe this should be allowed:

Not a big fan of seeing people run away from people in order to avoid their voip range for initiation. It's completely meta and if a large group of people chase after you it should be obvious enough you'll be killed if you keep running, in real scenarios you'd probably be shot.

 

 

Edited by Ciiber

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17 minutes ago, Ciiber said:

+1

As long as the initiators explain who they're initiating on and who they are.

If you dont know what position your iniators are at it's your fault you didnt keep an eye out. Walking through a dangerous area should not be a walk in the park.

Reasons I believe this should be allowed:

Not a big fan of seeing people run away from people in order to avoid their voip range for initiation. It's completely meta and if a large group of people chase after you it should be obvious enough you'll be killed if you keep running, in real scenarios you'd probably be shot.

 

 

yes it's your fault you don't see the initiators hidden in buildings behind walls and other solid objects when a megaphone rings out, the problem with megaphone initiations being made more viable is that you can't make an informed decision to comply, eg you don't know if it's 20 people or 2 so you have no idea if fighting back would be nvfl or 10 people complying against 2 guys.

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Same would go for every firefight, you never know how much backup someone has in the trees or buildings.

11 minutes ago, marauder1838 said:

yes it's your fault you don't see the initiators hidden in buildings behind walls and other solid objects

It's called an ambush and someone got the drop on you. It's a normal occurence that already happens in game. It would be unrealistic to peep your head out and tell someone to put their hands up. People already initiate from behind cover and using a megaphone just makes it so everyone gets the message instead of the often claimed phrase of "I didnt hear the initiation".

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it is not just claimed it does happen but i think that is to do with the voip bug and i don't think a megaphone would change that.

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-1 There are too many variables.

In a perfect game we could guarantee that the initiation was heard by all parties being initiated on, that the said party could then realistically identify who actually is attacking them, and then make the clear decision on whether or not to use their defender rights. What complicates matters with megaphones and any distanced initiation is that the defending party does not have any real chance of understanding who is involved, how many and how to correctly identify them, putting the party in a position where they are potentially surrounded by 2 hostiles, or 10. Yes we could implement a rule stating you have to call out your name, who you are initiating on and how many men you have, but this leads to:

image.png.be7dc6ab6ff09be64e98273f6ad0bafe.png

This adds unnecessary ambiguity to most if not all hostilities engaged in this manner, and while I understand it's not the intentions of the OP or anyone here for that matter, to use these initiations for rule breaking purposes; lines have been toed and will continue to be moving forward. I am not for this not because I want to limit the available options for our hostile RP'ers, their role play is just as valuable and necessary as everyone else's, but it leads me to my following point: 

image.png.5772ea16fe26d97bf5cb93fd3197ee37.png

Inevitably this leads to furthering potential limitations to RP, while I am more than aware of situations in which folk have gone straight to gunfire as opposed to talking their way out of a subject, megaphone initiations have the unfortunate side effect of the mentioned defenders not being able to engage in communications with the initiator - naturally because he/she is too far away. I feel I must reiterate for those likely already wanting to respond before me clarifying this, I am not accusing hostile RP'ers of forgoing the RP experience in a hostile situation, but this can implement the risk of doing so, and in addition with the above, makes for a slightly more nuanced subject than simply, "let's allow this again." 

It sacrifices clarity, the ability for the defenders to engage in return, and for those involved to act appropriately IC. There are many situations in which it could work, and many more in which it couldn't. Despite that, I agree, I would like to see more variety in initiations and how they're done, PA systems and radios as mentioned are much more complicated and we won't touch on that here, but if things can be worked out to provide total clarity, I'm actually all for it. Based on the information I have though and can surmise from experience, see the above -1. 

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