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OpTempest

Griefing Rule Clarification

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Good Afternoon all, hope you're well.

This post is inrelation to Rule 4.8 and to get some clarification on it's meaning, hopefully sparking change which will result in the rule being adjusted to prevent further issues or to get eternal confirmation from the staff team.

This post comes following two reports of griefing were our group has raided a compound with the intent to retrieve storage containers such as barrells, tents and so forth. The reports are below for ease of viewing.

Let's take a look at the rule

Quote

4.8 Griefing is act of damaging or destroying a player base, storage container, vehicles or their contents using OOC knowledge, ill intent or doing so without IC reasoning that is proportionate to the damage done.

As with all rules, I like to break it down, in this scenario I'm going to be using an example of todays issue where I have gained access into The Legion's compound, packed up a Car tent and a MIlitary tent and bugged out of there. The contents of the tents were left on the ground as they were of no use; also limited space in the backpack for me to take with me.

Griefing is an act of damaging or destroying a players base, storage container, vehicles or their contents

  • So this is pretty clear, the contents of a tent/barrel is not damaged when removing it, HOWEVER; if the items were despawned as a result, then it may be considered destroying the items.

Using OOC Knowledge, Ill intent or doing so without IC Reasoning that is proportionate to the damage done

  • There was no OOC Knowledge to bring into this scenario.
  • The intent was to take the tents, there was no ill intent with leaving the things behind.
  • The IC Reasoning for taking the tents was an interrupted raid the night before, where The Legion shot and seriously injured one of our crew.

The actual definition of griefing

As with everything online, this extract is only as accurate as the person writing it, but this is how I've understood griefing since it ever became a thing;

Quote

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways.

There was no malicious intent in the actions performed in either of these reports, I personally (although it may be a bit of a dick move) do not see it a requirement to pick up the contents of the tents to store them, safeguarding them for the owners? As I said, yes - it's a dick move; however that's down to the personality traits of the character, some people may tidy up after committing the crime? Some ... are a little less thoughtful, especially after their friend being gunned down.

An Immersive Example

Immersive example, let's really think about this;

  1. You go to a hardware store, it's 03:00HRS and after a little scout around the buidling - looking at security cameras, looking for any security guards or 24 hour surveillance you weigh up the options and decide to go hard or go home.
  2. You walk to a door that's been left open at the back of the store but the next door is locked - you've got to smash a window to unlock it from the inside.
  3. You smash the window and all of a sudden *BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP* ... Nice one dickhead, you set off the alarm. The Police are now likely being called, get a wriggle on chap.
  4. You get your trusty swag bag and grab anything valuable, running to the cashier desks you grab the tills and smash them to bits to get to those benjamin franklins.
    1. Remember the cops could show up at any moment
    2. You've made a right mess
  5. It's decision time.
    1. Tidy up the place?
      1. Sorry ... you got caught. The Police arrived just as you finished hoovering the main office. You almost fooled them though! They thought you were a janitor at first; until they searched you and realised you had half of the electrical department in your swagbag.
    2. Get the fuck out and cover some ground with your new powerdrill and $1,000 in fresh $100 bills.
      1. Nice one! Chances are forensic evidence will point to you at some point, but you can at least splash the $1000 on hookers and dope before they catch you.+

So the question to be posed and answer is this

"Is removing the contents on a storage container onto the floor and leaving it there to steal a tent Griefing?"

  • If yes; Please can we have the rules reflect this, to prevent confusion and unintended rulebreaks
  • If No: Please can we have the rules reflect this.

@General Rickets and @G19RP I am sure will have some good and valid points to make as a counter arguement, therefore I invite them to make their points to spark some constructive debate hopefully leading to a positive outcome.

Please lets also try and keep this on topic and loving.

sesame street kisses GIF

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Simple answer no.
But just doing it for jokes yes.

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Posted (edited)

Take the tents, move all the gear to another tent if not its griefing. 

Edited by FalkRP

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1 minute ago, FalkRP said:

Take the tents, move all the gear to another tent if not its griefing. 

Then if this is the general concensus, then it needs to be made clear in rules. The definition in the rules does not say this, nor does the general definition of griefing in every other respect.

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10 minutes ago, Oscar Coates said:

Then if this is the general concensus, then it needs to be made clear in rules. The definition in the rules does not say this, nor does the general definition of griefing in every other respect.

Its pretty well known, if you take a tent, you dont leave gear to despawn.  It's a pretty shit thing to do to anyone. 

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As far as I am concerned and probably everyone else in the community is concerned, "removing the contents on a storage container onto the floor and leaving it there to steal a tent" is and always has been considered griefing. The rule states "4.8 Griefing is act of damaging or destroying a player base, storage container, vehicles or their contents using OOC knowledge, ill intent or doing so without IC reasoning that is proportionate to the damage done". Now, specifically looking at where it says "damaging or destroying a player base, storage container, vehicle or their contents", I believe the part that states "their contents" covers dropping items on the floor, because after time obviously the items will despawn if not taken care of quick enough.

Rule is fine, no need to change it!

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56 minutes ago, Oscar Coates said:

"Is removing the contents on a storage container onto the floor and leaving it there to steal a tent Griefing?"

Yes? Not sure why this is a question. 

This has always been the case and is kind of a dick move in my opinion.

Leaving shit on the floor to despawn is considered griefing.

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14 minutes ago, FalkRP said:

Its pretty well known, if you take a tent, you dont leave gear to despawn.  It's a pretty shit thing to do to anyone. 

I'd agree that it's a shit thing to do, however that's about the character. If the character wants to put the staff back in the tent; that should be down to him/her. By having rules enforcing it just creeps into the realms of gear RP, at the risk of the people coming back and catching onto what's just happened. If you go and commit a crime, you don't wait around to get caught by the person(s) who is the victim?

The point I am making here is this;

  • NEW PLAYERS and RETURNING PLAYERS may not know that "This has always been the case". Therefore why is it a problem to have it written into the rules, to prevent things like this happening?

I was told today that there have been many reports with an MO similar to this - does that not imply that perhaps this isn't common knowledge? It's down to the person writing the rules to ensure that they are clear.

It's all good and well saying "I believe the part that states "their contents" covers dropping items on the floor" as @JamesRP said, however just saying "I beleive" implies that really, there's nothing compound stating that you shouldn't ... Just to clarify again, this wasn't ruleplay either. I genuinely had no idea that it would be considered as griefing because I've not seen anything that anywhere that suggests it would be a violation; and for the sake of a few peppers and shovels (and all the other tat) I didn't think much of it.

This suggestion isn't to start allowing people to do this, it's to make it clear that it's not permitted if it isn't allowed. I see absolutley no reason why anyone should be against clarification?

The dick move arguement only applies in-character. Out of character, I know that your base almost has 24 hour coverage; so the liklihood of it despawning is slim, I've left heaps of loot on the ground through a server restart previously and it's still been there.

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10 minutes ago, Fae said:

Yes? Not sure why this is a question. 

This has always been the case and is kind of a dick move in my opinion.

Leaving shit on the floor to despawn is considered griefing.

Would that mean I cannot steal a tent that was filled with food because I didn't clean up after myself?

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2 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Would that mean I cannot steal a tent that was filled with food because I didn't clean up after myself?

That's the purpose of this topic/suggestion. The OP's in this scenario think not.

The counter arguement for them is that the items that were taking out of the tent to steal it, should have been stored in a nearby tent to safeguard them and prevent them from despawning, however this would have been done at the risk of being caught, initiated on and likely attacked or worse.

There was a lot more at stake than walking away with a gunshot wound and without gear, there are IC diplomatic relations that would have also been affected should we have been caught.

Why should I stick around to get caught just for the sake of sticking some stuff in a tent. This again just turns into GearRP where people are more bothered about a few tit for tat items being left on the ground, rather than trying to find out who did it and doing something about it ICly.

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Just now, Oscar Coates said:

-snip-

Why should I stick around to get caught just for the sake of sticking some stuff in a tent. This again just turns into GearRP where people are more bothered about a few tit for tat items being left on the ground, rather than trying to find out who did it and doing something about it ICly.

If you raid when very few / none of the owners are online the RP is about gear in the first place. So idk what you're talking about when you say it "turns into" gearRP. Don't getm e wrong, I raid all the time, but I don't usually steal huge tents from people so that all of their stuff in it is left in the ground. I also, time and time again, have had more than enough time to put back the majority of the important shit from their containers, especially during an offline raid. 

It's just about decency man. People take time to set up and build their settlements etc. Having it all magically despawn because somebody stole a tent sucks. I hate hoarding in general, but some of these more public compounds deserve better than their stuff left on the floor. Think about it, if their tents are generally full, which most of the time they are because it's a large group, there's probably not a whole lot of room to actually put the items you threw on the ground back in, meaning it'll despawn by the time they can get a new tent, IF they can get one. 

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To be fair it depends.

Like if you just drop everything and don't even try and put some stuff in the other tents then it's kinda griefing, but if it's the only tent or there is no place to put the items then I see no problem with dropping everything to take the tent. You are not doing it to despawn items, you are doing it to take a tent. Just be a good sport about it and try to salvage as must as possible.

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2 minutes ago, APositivePara said:

If you raid when very few / none of the owners are online the RP is about gear in the first place. So idk what you're talking about when you say it "turns into" gearRP. Don't getm e wrong, I raid all the time, but I don't usually steal huge tents from people so that all of their stuff in it is left in the ground. I also, time and time again, have had more than enough time to put back the majority of the important shit from their containers, especially during an offline raid. 

It's just about decency man. People take time to set up and build their settlements etc. Having it all magically despawn because somebody stole a tent sucks. I hate hoarding in general, but some of these more public compounds deserve better than their stuff left on the floor. Think about it, if their tents are generally full, which most of the time they are because it's a large group, there's probably not a whole lot of room to actually put the items you threw on the ground back in, meaning it'll despawn by the time they can get a new tent, IF they can get one. 

This wasn't about GearRP. We didn't want the tents for hoarding gear. Also we can never be sure what is an OFFLINE RAID; Legion and Wolfpack share a compound, as I mentioned earlier; they could have been online? I'm not going to metagame to find out. As far as I approach things ICly is that everyone is awake, always. So I'd prefer not to stick around to get shot in the head. I did my recon; decided it was a good oppertunity, there was risk for reward and reaped the profits, whilst also fighting a just cause from the prior shooting incident.

The point I'm trying to make here isn't that it SHOULD BE ALLOWED, it's that how can people expect new and returning players to obide by this invisible rule, if there's nothing to say it's a rule?

DayZRP are VERY GOOD at adding caveats into the rules, their rules are some of the most indepth I've come across, therefore I wouldn't find it an issue to make the rule read like this;
 

Quote

 

4.8 Griefing is act of damaging or destroying a player base, storage container, vehicles or their contents using OOC knowledge, ill intent or doing so without IC reasoning that is proportionate to the damage done.

4.8a During raids; removing items from tents, barrles or other storage mechanics and leaving them to despawn WOULD be considered griefing, even without ill intent. Reasonable steps MUST be taken to ensure that loot does not despawn. If there are no other mechanics to store the items dumped from the tents, then it's up to the attackers to justify their reasoning in line with rule 4.8.

 

 

4 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

To be fair it depends.

Like if you just drop everything and don't even try and put some stuff in the other tents then it's kinda griefing, but if it's the only tent or there is no place to put the items then I see no problem with dropping everything to take the tent. You are not doing it to despawn items, you are doing it to take a tent. Just be a good sport about it and try to salvage as must as possible.

I do agree with you after having discussion with other people around this. This suggestion isn't about changing the rules to ALLOW it, it's about changing the rules for clarification. I don't think it would be fair to punish someone for doing something - when really nobody can give a straight;

- YES it's a rulebreak.
- MAYBE, it depends if ...
- NO it's not a rulebreak.

Know what I mean?

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Posted (edited)

If I want a tent I’m gonna drop the random shit on the ground. If there’s a solid purpose to what you’re doing and it’s not just to piss people off I don’t see the problem. Honestly griefing should refer more to actual base building structures since those who report over tent contents being left on the ground seem to be more concerned with gear than anything else.

14 minutes ago, APositivePara said:

 I hate hoarding in general, but some of these more public compounds deserve better than their stuff left on the floor. 

Yea no, the groups can either pick it up or get better base defenses.

Edited by Squillium

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, APositivePara said:

-s

If I want only your barrel and you have loads of junk in it I will drop your shit on the floor I don't want or need.
Whole argument that I should clean up after myself is dumb and not griefing, It's only griefing if I empty the tents toss the tent aside and leave it to despawn.

Edited by Eagle

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Eagle said:

If I want only your barrel and you have loads of junk in it I will drop your shit on the floor I don't want or need.
Whole argument that I should clean up after myself is dumb and not griefing, It's only griefing if I empty the tents toss the tent aside and leave it to despawn.

Couldn't agree more. I've had the "Get better defences" arguement thrown at me more times than I can count when our Novaya compound was getting raided everyday. Now the shoe is on the other foot ...

We woke up to scenes like this on a daily basis ... where our tents were empited and shit was everywhere.

Spoiler

8ipQN6h.jpg

RCGbMT8.jpg

I pursue a griefing report, because I personally didn't see it as greifing.

Edited by Oscar Coates

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How about take what you need and not drain them dry? 

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1 minute ago, Crimson_Tiger said:

How about take what you need and not drain them dry? 

Only two tents were taken. They had another 7 in the main compound and maybe 3/4 more in the annex?

I think they are quite the opposite of 'bled dry'.

I think it would be good if we could keep it on topic ...

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6 minutes ago, Eagle said:

If I want only your barrel and you have loads of junk in it I will drop your shit on the floor I don't want or need.
Whole argument that I should clean up after myself is dumb and not griefing, It's only griefing if I empty the tents toss the tent aside and leave it to despawn.

But... it's called good sportsmanship. Just getting rid of everything because you're too lazy to put it away is just a dick move. 

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1 minute ago, WongRP said:

But... it's called good sportsmanship. Just getting rid of everything because you're too lazy to put it away is just a dick move. 

I agree. Just because you're a bandit IC, don't be a dick about it. We are hear to have fun. 

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1 minute ago, WongRP said:

But... it's called good sportsmanship. Just getting rid of everything because you're too lazy to put it away is just a dick move. 

It's not laziness. It's called avoiding getting caught, robbed and killed.

Bad sportsmanship = Ill intent or lack of IC Reasoning.

Ill intent or lack of IC Reasoning = Rule 4.8 Violation.

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Nice suggestion after youre involved in 2 reports with leaving items to despawn. After doing a dick move to 2 compounds in 2 days yesterday to Mogilevka and today to Cherno. You wanted the storage stuff and left all the items onto the ground to despawn, and a good example will be at Cherno where they had other tents near and most probably a lot of space insinde to put the items from the tents which do you took.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, BoBoWA said:

Nice suggestion after youre involved in 2 reports with leaving items to despawn. After doing a dick move to 2 compounds in 2 days yesterday to Mogilevka and today to Cherno. You wanted the storage stuff and left all the items onto the ground to despawn, and a good example will be at Cherno where they had other tents near and most probably a lot of space insinde to put the items from the tents which do you took.

Not his job. Try to worry more about RP than gear and you’ll have a much better time here.

Edited by Squillium

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Just now, BoBoWA said:

Nice suggestion after youre involved in 2 reports with leaving items to despawn. After doing a dick move to 2 compounds in 2 days yesterday to Mogilevka and today to Cherno. You wanted the storage stuff and left all the items onto the ground to despawn, and a good example will be at Cherno where they had other tents near and most probably a lot of space insinde to put the items from the tents which do you took.

This suggestion is directly a result of those two reports. You're correct.  It's to get clarification.

Your  passive-aggressive approach wasn't appreciated, unless you have something constructive? Let's keep it on topic.

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So, if the arguement is that it is bad RP to waste the time moving everything to other storages... and good RP to just dump everything on the ground, and yeet out of there before someone catches you...

Have you ever set up or taken down a tent?  Ever taken down a tent that someone has filled to the brim with shit?

I'd suggest that taking the time to move the items would still take FAR less time that it would take IRL to transport everything out of a full tent of those sizes... nevermind the time required to take down and pack the tent away in a manner suitable for transport... (Also IRL items don't... despawn...)

 

After all, if it's all about being realism... I'm certain you would gladly take the extra time to make everything as immersive as possible.  ❤️

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