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Isaiah Rinkasonn

Flashbanging before initation

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I have a question about usage of flash bangs before an initation. Can you use them, before you initiate on group of people? As to my understanding, it blinds and deafens you for a moment in game, and can also kill you, giving the initiating party a huge edge against the targets. 

 

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No you shouldn't be able to, it should count as attempted RDM and can lead to an invalid initiation based on the circumstances.

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Use flashbangs only AFTER initiation. Not before. Other then like AndreyQ said.

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Throwing a flashbang at someone prior to an initiation, would mean the initiation is invalid, as it is a hostile action.

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1 hour ago, Realize said:

Throwing a flashbang at someone prior to an initiation, would mean the initiation is invalid, as it is a hostile action.

You are allowed to do hostile actions without initiating though, right? You can punch someone and thats a hostile action. Shouldnt a flashbang fall under the same category?

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1 minute ago, Osku said:

You are allowed to do hostile actions without initiating though, right? You can punch someone and thats a hostile action. Shouldnt a flashbang fall under the same category?

I think @Roland is the best person to answer this, so you get a more official answer.

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5 minutes ago, Osku said:

You are allowed to do hostile actions without initiating though, right? You can punch someone and thats a hostile action. Shouldnt a flashbang fall under the same category?

My latest reply on the report here:

Will very much show that a flashbang deals even less damage than a punch.

We all know gunshots deal an insane amount of damage and thats the reason you need to intiate before you shoot.

But surely dealing an insignificant amount of damage from a flashbang should not be considered in any way lethal.

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I have seen people who are full health, fresh spawns with little to no damage dealt to them by infected/players die from a flashbang to their close proximity

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13 minutes ago, Osku said:

You are allowed to do hostile actions without initiating though, right? You can punch someone and thats a hostile action. Shouldnt a flashbang fall under the same category?

No hostile actions are allowed without initiations. You can't run up to people and punch them randomly, you can't throw in flashbangs into crowds, you can't shoot at people without initiation.

Quote

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players.

 

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Just now, Isaiah CortezPVE said:

I have seen people who are full health, fresh spawns with little to no damage dealt to them by infected/players die from a flashbang to their close proximity

On the off chance that the projectile might have been unfortunate enough to hit them in the head, perhaps it could result in a kill.

However that just isnt possibly in my mind, the Makarov round deals MORE damage when hit in the head, and I can assure you, one shot to the head from a makarov on our server does not result in a kill.

 

I suppose, in my eyes there may be a tiny that it could kill the other person, but I have truly never seen anyone die to a flashbang.

1 minute ago, Roland said:

No hostile actions are allowed without initiations. You can't run up to people and punch them randomly, you can't throw in flashbangs into crowds, you can't shoot at people without initiation.

Rule 4.1

Thank you for clarifying, this will help prevent others from making the mistake I have, I just hope the OP can accept I fucked up then and trust me to do better.

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Just now, Roland said:

No hostile actions are allowed without initiations. You can't run up to people and punch them randomly, you can't throw in flashbangs into crowds, you can't shoot at people without initiation.

Rule 4.1

I see that sneaky "punch randomly" in there 😉 You are allowed to punch people though. If a situation escalates and you punch someone its a hostile action and the person gains defence rights on you. Why should a flashbang be any different.

Ive heard that @Zanaan had told someone that initiating on someone while stun locking them with punches is AoGM which is understandable but a flashbang shouldnt be because disabling someone for a few seconds is its intended purpose in the game. Using it to initiate when outnumbered is just a smart move in my opinion.

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Posted (edited)

Throwing a flashbang, or any other type of grenade, into a crowd counts as a hostile action, and as such requires an innitiation beforehand.

Edited by Banshee

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26 minutes ago, Osku said:

I see that sneaky "punch randomly" in there 😉 You are allowed to punch people though. If a situation escalates and you punch someone its a hostile action and the person gains defence rights on you. Why should a flashbang be any different.

Ive heard that @Zanaan had told someone that initiating on someone while stun locking them with punches is AoGM which is understandable but a flashbang shouldnt be because disabling someone for a few seconds is its intended purpose in the game. Using it to initiate when outnumbered is just a smart move in my opinion.

I added randomly because that's how the rule was supposed to work, to prevent random acts of hostile actions and KoS. It doesn't take into account that some people agree to certain things that normally be rule breaks, like for example some groups are OK with being KoSed and that's fine by us. Doesn't change the fact that for the rest of us KoS is still a rule break.

Any hostile action that deals damage to another player should meet requirements of 4.1. However if people want to punch each other because of escalating situation/RP they can do that and all they need to do is make sure that other people are fine with it and won't report it. Cause if not, not only any initiations or kill rights that come afterwards will be considered invalid in a report, but even a punch can be classified as an attempted invalid kill given certain circumstances.

If it worked the way you claim, we could just shoot at each other with guns without initiations and as long as nobody gets killed and only knocked out/slowed due to injuries it would be just fine - it only disables them for a minute as long as someone patches them up, right? Nah, it does't work that way. It's a smart move, but it is way too OP to be used without an initiation. Just imagine sucker punching someone and knocking them out and then initiating while they are decked. People need to have a chance to defend themselves, and throwing sucker punches or flashbangs without an initiation does not allow for that.

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In my eyes the part from the rules that could be used as an argument to say flashbangs arent allowed is this part:

Quote

Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is

Throwing a flashbang isnt really specific unless the people you are initiating on are far from everyone and it isnt personal since you probably wont be standing right infront of them with the flashbang but throwing it from behind something. Also there is the problem of them not being able to see or hear the initiation properly when flashed.

I dont think it should be considered an attempted kill and I dont even know what to respond to the whole "you arent really allowed to punch people in RP without an initiation and you just have to hope they are ok with it and dont report you because you will be hit with attempted invalid kill" deal

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For breach and clear why not? Toss whilst initiating and it forces them to comply.

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40 minutes ago, Osku said:

I dont think it should be considered an attempted kill and I dont even know what to respond to the whole "you arent really allowed to punch people in RP without an initiation and you just have to hope they are ok with it and dont report you because you will be hit with attempted invalid kill" deal

Always been like that, but it never actually happened because no on enforces it. Like just recently Rolle solved a report where someone got punched, he mentioned that it was a hostile action and the guy didn't get hit with anything. I wouldn't think that much of it tbh.

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2 minutes ago, Eagle said:

For breach and clear why not? Toss whilst initiating and it forces them to comply.

I don't think you should be able to do that, that's like shooting at people whilst initiating to force them to comply. You shoot and throw grenades AFTER people have chosen not to comply. Like I said previously people need to be given a chance to defend themselves.

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Flashbangs do kill randomly.

@Baron and I were messing around with them, @Kordruga told us they have a random chance to kill but like most misbehaving children we didn't listen. After Baron chucked the third one and I was standing ten feet away atop a car it killed me instantly. I was at full health, with no injuries or lack of food/water.

So yeah, no flashbangs without a initiation. They are deadly at times!

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9 minutes ago, Brayces said:

Flashbangs do kill randomly.

I can confirm the above is absolutely true. I believe it has something to do with bone health via the game's obscure health system. 

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Flahsbangs are a hostile action as mutch as punching.

And as rolle said, people need to have a chance to defend themself, they cant really do that as blind.

Considering the fact that Flashbangs might kill you they should be treated as any other weapon able to kill therefore it should break rules like RDM and KOS without right rights to use them.

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2 minutes ago, Itsmez said:

 people need to have a chance to defend themself, they cant really do that as blind.

Isn't that the whole point of a flashbang?

Solution is simple, scream your initiation and then throw the flashbang or atleast initiate as you're throwing it. 

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33 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't think you should be able to do that, that's like shooting at people whilst initiating to force them to comply. You shoot and throw grenades AFTER people have chosen not to comply. Like I said previously people need to be given a chance to defend themselves.

Bullets and grenades not flash bangs kill, so what would be the issue? Surely shooting back matters little to hostage RP.

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Just now, Queerios said:

Isn't that the whole point of a flashbang?

Solution is simple, scream your initiation and then throw the flashbang or atleast initiate as you're throwing it. 

Isnt the whole point of the guns to kill someone ? why intiate and give them chance when you can just straight up kill them ?

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2 minutes ago, Itsmez said:

Isnt the whole point of the guns to kill someone ? why intiate and give them chance when you can just straight up kill them ?

Not necessarily but that's besides the point.

Regardless, like I said, its not hard to obey the rules and use flashbangs. Just don't end up killing yourselves and don't throw them in grass textures as they block the whole blinding effect. 

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Just now, Queerios said:

Not necessarily but that's besides the point.

Regardless, like I said, its not hard to obey the rules and use flashbangs. Just don't end up killing yourselves and don't throw them in grass textures as they block the whole blinding effect. 

Well that was not besides the point, you were talking about the point of flashbangs what theyre supposed for, and i compared it to something else that is supposed for

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