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keibancz

Tweak Intermediate Rifles

Tweak Intermediate Rifles  

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Posted (edited)

Nobody seems to use any of the 5.45x39 AK variants because people wanna PVP, not look cool. Perhaps if we changed the stats of the round to better reflect real life, more people would want to use them? 

Edit: I should probably explain that in the current state of the game 5.56x45 and 5.45x39 are identical afaik, so people gravitate towards the NATO one because it has the big boy magazine and people wanna be airsofting nerds. 

Edited by keibancz

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Posted (edited)

If people are really that petty, let them be. I rock and AKS-74U and I'm not ashamed of it. I like its size and I don't really care how it performs in PVP because I shoot infected with it.

Edited by OldSchool

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You haven't actually explained what's wrong with 5.45x39 AK variants.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, OldSchool said:

I people are really that petty, let them be.

I just think it'd be nice to actually see rifles that you would realistically see absolutely everywhere while I'm RPing instead.

23 minutes ago, Roland said:

You haven't actually explained what's wrong with 5.45x39 AK variants.

Oh, sorry. I probably should've specified that. For starters, the focus would be on the round itself, not the rifles that accept it. 

5.45 is essentially just a Soviet improvement on the 5.56 NATO produced during the cold war. To sum up their differences without going into too much detail, (assuming this is just M193 vs 7n6, since ammunition in-game is homogeneous aside from tracers) 5.45 loses velocity much slower, performs better at lower velocities than 5.56, has greater soft tissue damage capabilities at greater ranges, and significantly reduced recoil (the numbers that are usually thrown around are about almost half of that of 5.56, and I can vouch for that personally). The cartridge also has much less reduction in performance caused by a shorter barrel length compared to 5.56, although there's no SBR AR in-game so it's not as relevant. 

Some argue the 5.45 is generally better at defeating armor, although when only taking into account M193/7n6, the velocity-dependent one is the clear winner in terms of usefulness. It's basically it's main strong point over 5.45 at closer ranges. 

Obviously the differences are far more nuanced than that, even without considering all of the variants in use, but these are what I think are relevant to the changes that could be made. I can elaborate on anything if you want.

Edit: the armor pen between the ball variants is kind of disputed fyi and what I said about it is partially my own opinion on the matter. The 7n6 does defeat armor far better than M193 at greater ranges thanks to both its construction and ballistic properties.

Edited by keibancz

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I mean, you can argue all the semantics of what makes 5.45 better then 5.56 to try get people to use it all you want. 

A simpler fix would be adding larger magazine sizes. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, groovy xavier said:

I mean, you can argue all the semantics of what makes 5.45 better then 5.56 to try get people to use it all you want. 

A simpler fix would be adding larger magazine sizes. 

Well if it were actually better in-game, (I like to think that) people would totally use it. I'd rather not resort to just adding more meme magazines to make people want to use it, although that's still better than nothing; the devs would also have to model a 6L31 or something instead of just switching some numbers around, although I'm not a dev so I don't really know if one is really simpler than the other. 

Edit: Also I just realized that since most PVP on DayZRP happens within 20m, some PVP players might not wanna make the switch due to the reduced benefit. It'd still improve the rifle for people who wanna use it for PVE at greater ranges though. 

Edited by keibancz

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Just now, keibancz said:

Well if it were actually better in-game, people would totally use it. I'd rather not resort to just adding more meme magazines to make people want to use it, although that's still better than nothing; the devs would also have to model a 6L31 or something instead of just switching some numbers around, although I'm not a dev so I don't really know if one is really simpler than the other. 

I'm not really sure how true that is. It'd have to be noticeably better. 

Usually in PVP, you go through a 30rnd pretty quick. The advantage comes in the mag size, especially when it doesn't take a lot normally to take someone down with 5.56.

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In DayZ 5.45 does the same damage as 7.62x39 and 5.56, no need to tweak anything.

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How about we make the M4 do slightly less damage then the AKM because of the bullet size. My has a faster round but a smaller one, AKM has a bigger but slower round.

 

truthfully just crank all the damage values to max on every gun so they are all viable. Getting shot with a 9mm should hurt just as much as being shot with a 5.56....you just got shot and have a literal hole through your body. Fuck it

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1 hour ago, Hex said:

Truthfully just crank all the damage values to max on every gun so they are all viable. Getting shot with a 9mm should hurt just as much as being shot with a 5.56....you just got shot and have a literal hole through your body. Fuck it

This isn't real life but a game sure some guns are pretty worthless but boosting everything just for the sake of it is pointless balancing maybe.

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Apart from flying at a bit different speeds, having a bit different air friction values and weights, the damage dealt by assault rifle (AKM, AK, M4) bullets is the same.

556x45:
        initSpeed = 1000
        typicalSpeed = 1000
        airFriction = -0.00105
        weight = 0.00356

545x39:
        initSpeed = 880
        typicalSpeed = 880
        airFriction = -0.00027
        weight = 0.00343

762x39:
        initSpeed = 740
        typicalSpeed = 740
        airFriction = -0.00143
        weight = 0.008

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Posted (edited)

What's the issue...?

if people have a preferred AK variant or weapon, why do you have an issue with that? Also "look cool" is subjective, ergo your opinion. Others might feel other NATO weapons look cooler 🤷‍♂️

Edit: the only gun that's actually OP is the FAL. Full auto .308 is p nasty

Edited by APositivePara

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22 minutes ago, Kerkkoh said:

556x45:
        hit = 8;
        initSpeed = 1000;
        typicalSpeed = 1000;

        airFriction = -0.00105;
        weight = 0.00356;

545x39:

        hit = 7.2;
        typicalSpeed = 880;
        initSpeed = 880;

        airFriction = -0.00027;
        weight = 0.00343;

762x39:

        hit = 9.5;
        initSpeed = 740;
        typicalSpeed = 740;

        airFriction = -0.00143;
        weight = 0.008;

After looking through the bullet config myself I can confirm Kerkkoh as well, the bullets technically have the same damage for health, blood and shock, the only different values being the ones I have highlighted in the quote above.

I believe the game probably uses a combination of these values to calculate the actual damage done to a target, and this kinda brings me to the hit value, I dont think anyone will disagree that the 7.62 deals the most damage while 5.45 deals the least.

The hit value seems to agree with that statement, being lowest for the 5.45 and highest for the 7.62, as for what that value actual does is beyond me.

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9x19: 
        hit = 7;
        initSpeed = 360;
        typicalSpeed = 360;

        airFriction = -0.003;
        weight = 0.0084;

 

As we can see from the 9x19 round used in the MP5 and Vityaz, the hit value is quote low, but so is the bullet speed and overall weight.

Pehaps hit acts as a multiplier of sorts, it takes the other values and does something with them.

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Make a 45 round mag for the AK74u and I can guarantee you more people will use it.

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19 minutes ago, Dew said:

Make a 45 round mag for the AK74u and I can guarantee you more people will use it.

I feel like sustainability is a factor in firefights and hostile groups may favor a more small firearm for flexibility if they can sustain in the same way someone with a 60 rounder can.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, groovy xavier said:

Usually in PVP, you go through a 30rnd pretty quick. The advantage comes in the mag size, especially when it doesn't take a lot normally to take someone down with 5.56.

Yeah that's definitely true, hence the tweaking of magazine rarity.

11 hours ago, Hex said:

How about we make the M4 do slightly less damage then the AKM because of the bullet size. My has a faster round but a smaller one, AKM has a bigger but slower round.

I didn't even realize 7.62x39mm was also treated as basically identical lol. This should definitely be fixed as well. I don't think I would want every gun in the game to 1-shot people though.

6 hours ago, Kerkkoh said:

Apart from flying at a bit different speeds, having a bit different air friction values and weights, the damage dealt by assault rifle (AKM, AK, M4) bullets is the same.

 

Do you know if damage scales with velocity relative to muzzle velocity?

6 hours ago, APositivePara said:

What's the issue...?

I think it would be nicer if people used a varity of weapons instead of just using the same guns all the darn time. It would also be significantly more realistic.

6 hours ago, Ducky said:

 

The hit value seems to agree with that statement, being lowest for the 5.45 and highest for the 7.62, as for what that value actual does is beyond me.

From what I've noticed in=game, 7.62x39 does do significantly more damage to the infected than the other two, so I think you may be right. I there is a variation in stats between 5.56 and 5.45, then the stats are already realistic. This thread can be closed if the admins deem it necessary. TIL 5.45x39 is actually better than 5.56 in the vanilla version of the game.

5 hours ago, Dew said:

Make a 45 round mag for the AK74u and I can guarantee you more people will use it.

I already said this earlier, but I don't think the devs will go out of their way to model a 6L31 or some snowflake mag for the AKs in 5.45. I think a reduction in big boy mag spawns would be easier to implement. 

Edited by keibancz

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6 hours ago, keibancz said:

Do you know if damage scales with velocity relative to muzzle velocity?

I don't. Most of that stuff is handled by the game engine itself, AFAIK. If I had to guess... No.

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@keibancz pretty sure a 6L31 was being made for MoreGuns, however lemme tag @Misho to confirm that statement

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Something is definitely going on with the ammo/rifles and how they deal damage because while they may look the same on paper, they are definitely not the same in game.

I tested an AKM, AK74 & M4 by shooting a survivor model without clothes in the stomach, about in the same region every time.

The AK74 sometimes took up to 3 shots to knock the survivor out and kill them. The AKM usually took 1-2, and the M4 being the most reliable out of the three only took 1, every time. This test was not very conclusive, I ran it about 3 times and my aim could have varied between the takes, but I'd say there's definitely a difference of sorts.

On 7/30/2019 at 7:52 PM, Ducky said:

The hit value seems to agree with that statement, being lowest for the 5.45 and highest for the 7.62, as for what that value actual does is beyond me.

I didn't consider the hit value initialy because it seemed too simplistic to be actually still in use by the game but something, whether it's the hit value or not, is ranking these rifles in terms of killing efficiency. It could as well be the bullet velocity that gets taken into account while the bullet impacts the player. It could also be something with the weapons and how they are configured.

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1 minute ago, Kerkkoh said:

Something is definitely going on with the ammo/rifles and how they deal damage because while they may look the same on paper, they are definitely not the same in game.

I tested an AKM, AK74 & M4 by shooting a survivor model without clothes in the stomach, about in the same region every time.

The AK74 sometimes took up to 3 shots to knock the survivor out and kill them. The AKM usually took 1-2, and the M4 being the most reliable out of the three only took 1, every time. This test was not very conclusive, I ran it about 3 times and my aim could have varied between the takes, but I'd say there's definitely a difference of sorts.

I didn't consider the hit value initialy because it seemed too simplistic to be actually still in use by the game but something, whether it's the hit value or not, is ranking these rifles in terms of killing efficiency. It could as well be the bullet velocity that gets taken into account while the bullet impacts the player. It could also be something with the weapons and how they are configured.

How about this Kerk, we sit down sometime within the next few days and try to mess with the values of one bullet type, see what values change what and what has the greatest impact on damage.

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