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Fuhqnugget

Military bases

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Posted (edited)

So while reading up on the lore I noticed the quote of *roughly* 'Chernarus decided to stay neutral in conflicts and so did not join the UN, although they hosted many bases to NATO forces.'

 

Now this got me to thinking, the other day I was stopped in game by some Chernarussians claiming that all military bases in Chernarus belong to them, but if the above statement is true (which if in lore, is true), some of the military bases are in fact, NATO as well as Chernarussian. Now in game this would create some rivalries and some possible great RP. The Chernarussians I've met have all been great RPers, talking about how we've come into their country and robbed their military outposts and such... but that doesn't explain why there is western weaponry strewn all throughout the 'solely independent' bases. 

 

Also also, this would help with lore inconsistencies in game in my opinion. In this same instance, it was 'we never asked anyone for help with the issue that arose so quickly,' which, according to the lore, is also false. IC it makes sense to believe this from a Nationality based standpoint, so I'm not holding a grudge on this too much.

 

Now the question that this got me on to was what bases do you guys think were American and what were Chernarussian? Do you think that Slavic Russian forces also had a base somewhere in Chernarus? Personally, it's a no brainer that the airbase would be Chernarussian, but I believe small bases like Dichina and possibly Troitske would be NATO. I also believe one of the airfields (Krasnostav or Balota) may have belonged to the NATO forces, as having an airbase would be crucial (but also unlikely since Chernarus and NATO weren't officially allied in lore). 

 

What do you guys think?

Edited by Fuhqnugget

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I mean, this is something LM @Major can clarify for you, since he helped write the lore for the server. The reason these inconsistencies appear is because the finer details off the lore are all buried under a subsection that doesn't exactly get a lot of traffic. The lore should have it's very own section of the forums to be honest.

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For sure, I just wanted this clarified so I'm not spreading false info on the server in person. I'm personally leaning towards all bases being Chernarussian with American infantry embedded inside them. It's a cool relation though and I think it might make for some interesting RP. 

Either way I sent him a PM.

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Posted (edited)

Now I'm no Loremaster and obviously the following is just how I view it or piece it together, but yet I feel that it might be relatively spot on - if need be, an LM can correct me.

 

Are you referring to this from the lore section?

Quote

While Chernarus had not officially joined NATO for fear of losing national sovereignty, it did agree to host several bases within Chernarus.

 

Since the UN is mentioned in the first part, it should be noted that Chernarus took part in a UN mission in Takistan.

https://dayz.gamepedia.com/United_Nations

http://www.arma2.com/arma-2-oa-factions/a-2-oa-nato-and-un

This is established game lore and not contradicted by our own lore; some characters from the CDF do mention UNFORT backgrounds.

This actually plays into your question why there's western weaponry to be found at such bases. Pre-outbreak it was due to international deployment or perhaps international trainers being present, possibly making CDF forces used to certain weaponry used in by the UNFORT partners. And post outbreak, UN forces and NATO forces, were deployed to Chernarus and were active for a while before being decimated or withdrawn in official capacity. It should also be noted that in the civil war and thus prior to infection and UNFORT, western forces became involved, perhaps going as far to boost and supply the country ever since then, which is what partially might explain some players assuming that CDF forces using western weapons like the M4 or M16 would also be fine. Not all of them, but maybe certain units or companies.

As for whether bases in South Zagoria were shared pre-outbreak, I can't recall clear stances on this and a superficial search doesn't imply this. Some wiki article I found lists all outposts and bases as belonging to the CDF. It is my understanding that pre-outbreak, any international / western presence wasn't in South Zagoria or limited only. The lore snippet of this community has the answer a few bits after the part you mean:

 

Quote

A massive NATO fleet arrived off the coast of Chernarus, having been underway to the Green Sea earlier in the week, joining an existing flotilla of NATO ships that had begun to assemble during the previous months of unrest. Now the fleet's goal was securing ground zero and preventing the loss of crucial NATO bases in the area. The Russian Black Sea fleet was waiting for the arriving ships, and had also been slowly deploying ships to the area as NATO had. NATO operations on July 17th focused mainly on reinforcing CDF troops in South Zagoria, deploying troops from its Kirovograd base to combat outbreaks in the city itself. Mostly US troops from the Utes garrison were deployed to South Zagoria, US Army troops dispatched to Chernogorsk and US Marines to the Elektrozavodsk area.

The first snippet mentions "crucial NATO bases in the area" but can be interpreted in different ways, such as referring to an area not necessarily IN South Zagoria, but generally Chernarus or the region, or maybe we just have to assume it was never specified or thought through at the time this was written and put into place. Hey, if game devs can leave things uncertain, player communities can, too.

The second underlined part I understand as NATO having a Kirovograd "base" (hosted, I guess), just as Utes Island (third underlined part) apparently had a western presence, but that might not be a surprise as when the US intervened in the civil war, Utes was basically the first stop.

 

latest?cb=20141118152153&path-prefix=pl

 

------------------------------------

 

What do I get from all of this or how do I view it?

1) Western weaponry isn't as uncommon as you'd imagine under other constellations as western or international forces have been involved in Chernarus almost a decade prior to the outbreak and even after the outbreak, just as Chernarus took part in an international or UN mission with western partners.

2) There was (and is) an international military (NATO, UN, etc) presence in Chernarus and some bases were likely shared - but I couldn't find any implication of in this lore or game lore indicating it would be the case in South Zagoria. If Utes belongs to South Zagoria oblast formally then that garrison there would be a prime example. IF any base we have in the in-game region was shared, then likely one of the bigger ones (and not Kamensk military base for obvious lore reasons), but it wasn't clearly mentioned or specified.

Although if we look at the quote above, it can almost be ruled out since why would the US deploy specifically from Utes or Kirovograd (if I read it right, contextually) if they had some presence in the military bases we can visit in the game? It's not mentioned anywhere as far as I can tell, so we can actually assume no base we can visit had a notable foreign troop presence prior to the outbreak.

3)Post-outbreak and as things unfolded in-game (our custom lore as it played out on the server), while I witnessed the UN and some NATO troops early on, I do not recall the CDF ever firmly maintaining an actual military base with co-hosted international troops, so we can likely rule this out as something that happened in-game or in RP either

 

 

Again, not an LM (duh), for all I know the LM reply could turn my thoughts upside down completely, but yet I think that the answers are relatively clear, or can be assumed by implications as listed above. To me the thought that all bigger bases had US infantry in them seems a bit too exotic, to say the least, the overall (post-)civil war situation doesn't seem to valid such an amount of troops or widespread coverage, as it's not comparable to, I dunno, the crisis regions we know from today. Furthermore the Chernarussian government (with or without foreign help in the intel area) pretty much hunted down notable Chedaki cells or people and other wiki articles I found indicate the situation was rather stable all in all.

Edited by Combine

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Combine said:

-snip-

The only thing I would like to add to this which was written greatly is, that just because we are in a slavic country that doesn't mean every weapon is an AK.
Especially due to Chernarus minimal contact with Nato there is a possibility that they would be switching weaponry to fit the main platform of NATO incase things happen.

While Poland stuck fully with the Kalashnikov platform, Ukraine is currently adopting/testing a few more western platforms for infantry, not alot but they are.

But countries like Latvia show it the best, a post soviet country that is in essence fully westernized in infantry equipment due to their constant working with NATO

Estonia on the other hand is a weird blend.

But the country that I associate military and geographically the most with Chernarus has the best example. Georgia, Georgia is the exact blend of weapons we see today ingame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Defense_Forces_of_Georgia

We are in a post soviet country, the ones that stayed with the Kalashnikov platform were countries that kept major arms production facilities if I remember correctly, those that didn't have these wanted mostly nothing to do with Russia and Westernized their arsenals.

Edited by RedSky

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It makes perfect sense for western weaponry to be in the country beforehand due to trade deals made by the Chernarussians beforehand. It is interesting seeing the opposing viewpoints as to the presence of NATO preinfection, and all these posts made so far give a pretty solid view with plenty of evidence to support the views made. Glad you guys are thinking a lot about this subject. 

 

My opinion is still that some military bases in the area were occupied by either the UN or NATO before everything happened, as I think the Chernarussians were going to setup a quick alliance in the case of the Russian Civil War sparking again.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Fuhqnugget said:

It makes perfect sense for western weaponry to be in the country beforehand due to trade deals made by the Chernarussians beforehand. It is interesting seeing the opposing viewpoints as to the presence of NATO preinfection, and all these posts made so far give a pretty solid view with plenty of evidence to support the views made. Glad you guys are thinking a lot about this subject. 

 

My opinion is still that some military bases in the area were occupied by either the UN or NATO before everything happened, as I think the Chernarussians were going to setup a quick alliance in the case of the Russian Civil War sparking again.

I entirely disagree, the map we are in is South-Zagoria, a province of Chernarus, it borders Russia, a NATO base in this region would be the worst thing for NATO.

If war between Russia and Chernarus would break out, South Zagoria due to its geographical barriers would be the battlefield for years, having a base in this region would be suicide for any conflict.

The reason that there are military bases is because they are Soviet ERA bases and made alot more sense back then, Tisy even being a nuclear launch site for Soviet missiles, we know this because Bohemia Interactive used real life Czech locations as an example, Tisy military base was based off "Dobříš" also known as code name "Klondike" with a direct quote from wikipedia "real life surface to air missile & radar base built by the Communist Czechoslovakian government during the Cold War."
 

Spoiler

 



So Tisy is ruled out, now to continue,

North east airfield, was most likely militarized during the outbreak due to a lack of airfields so lets scratch that minimal military presence there.

Balota is a remenant of the civil war and was most likely loosely protected due to it being more costly to demolish then it was to staff.

North-West is a main airstrip for the CDF, no way in hell NATO would get that.

Pavlovo is a hidden military research lab/Oil storage most likely for Biological warfare and expirementations in new weapons, chances are that wouldnt be it either.

And the hidden military base up north is actually an extension of Tisy, it is the control center of Tisy's missile site, im aware we dont roleplay it ingame due to the lore changing it but going of Bohemia lore there most likely is a tunnel complex connecting the two. Klondike was especially known for being far ahead in Soviet Nuclear Bunker Technology so the idea of a massive subterainian tunnel network is very logical.

So non of these make sense to be NATO or even UN bases.

Edited by RedSky

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52 minutes ago, RedSky said:

I entirely disagree, the map we are in is South-Zagoria, a province of Chernarus, it borders Russia, a NATO base in this region would be the worst thing for NATO.

If war between Russia and Chernarus would break out, South Zagoria due to its geographical barriers would be the battlefield for years, having a base in this region would be suicide for any conflict.

The reason that there are military bases is because they are Soviet ERA bases and made alot more sense back then, Tisy even being a nuclear launch site for Soviet missiles, we know this because Bohemia Interactive used real life Czech locations as an example, Tisy military base was based off "Dobříš" also known as code name "Klondike" with a direct quote from wikipedia "real life surface to air missile & radar base built by the Communist Czechoslovakian government during the Cold War."
 

  Hide contents

 



So Tisy is ruled out, now to continue,

North east airfield, was most likely militarized during the outbreak due to a lack of airfields so lets scratch that minimal military presence there.

Balota is a remenant of the civil war and was most likely loosely protected due to it being more costly to demolish then it was to staff.

North-West is a main airstrip for the CDF, no way in hell NATO would get that.

Pavlovo is a hidden military research lab/Oil storage most likely for Biological warfare and expirementations in new weapons, chances are that wouldnt be it either.

And the hidden military base up north is actually an extension of Tisy, it is the control center of Tisy's missile site, im aware we dont roleplay it ingame due to the lore changing it but going of Bohemia lore there most likely is a tunnel complex connecting the two. Klondike was especially known for being far ahead in Soviet Nuclear Bunker Technology so the idea of a massive subterainian tunnel network is very logical.

So non of these make sense to be NATO or even UN bases.

Good viewpoint, it seems FOR SURE that according to Bohemia official lore NATO was not a big presence in Chernarus before the outbreak, at least if we relate the locations to the real world equivalents. Server wise though it really isn't clarified whether or not it is, especially because of the wording listed inside of the lore given. 

 

We'll probably just have to wait for a LM to be here to confirm or not confirm whether or not NATO and UN forces had bases within Chernarus before.

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Well, in real world applications when two or more militaries are being deployed in the same area and if these two or more militaries are allied they will simply use the same "bases". in a real world outbreak in a place like chernarus you would see many different uniforms walking around in the military areas. bigger areas such as Tisy and NWAF would probably be sectioned off so there would be a company of american marines that would have their own area for barracks, and the other militaries would have their own areas. and so on....

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Yes the bases used to be Chernarussians that was hosted for NATO on the lore originally. But the time has passed and there is apocalypse going on, so i quess the bases are owned by forces that can actually take care of them and have enough men to control them.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mortico said:

Well, in real world applications when two or more militaries are being deployed in the same area and if these two or more militaries are allied they will simply use the same "bases". in a real world outbreak in a place like chernarus you would see many different uniforms walking around in the military areas. bigger areas such as Tisy and NWAF would probably be sectioned off so there would be a company of american marines that would have their own area for barracks, and the other militaries would have their own areas. and so on....

That's what I figured, as that's what generally happens IRL. I don't know, I guess im mostly just keen on increasing the amount of set lore we have confirmed.

Edited by Fuhqnugget

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From a CDF Government standpoint, those bases have definitely been left and abandoned in South Zagoria, and claims as to who owns them doesn't really matter except on a superficial level.

@Fuhqnugget

The people you met were likely nationalists, and like nationalists tend to do, they rationalise and justify their actions based on a variety of factors.

Blaming you for going to their countries abandoned military bases and reaping the rewards is one way they justify the evil-ness of foreigners 😉 

 

But in any case, Combine did put it best and I suggest everyone reads what he had to say on the matter.

As for western weapons in Chernarus, most of them likely fall under these categories.

1. Left over Surplus equipment from the Civil War (M4, M16)

2. Left over Surplus equipment from UNFORT (SCARs and FALs)

3. NATO/US forces based in Chernarus during and after the outbreak (AWM and any other modern western weapons)

4. Internationally sold hunting rifles or recreational rifles. (M14, M1A, Winchester Model 70)

 

Of course these arent entirely accurate, but it helps justify why they would be there, and in terms of balancing, eastern weaponry already is more common than western ones, and you are more likely to find them over an M4.

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11 hours ago, Fuhqnugget said:

So while reading up on the lore I noticed the quote of *roughly* 'Chernarus decided to stay neutral in conflicts and so did not join the UN, although they hosted many bases to NATO forces.'

 

Now this got me to thinking, the other day I was stopped in game by some Chernarussians claiming that all military bases in Chernarus belong to them, but if the above statement is true (which if in lore, is true), some of the military bases are in fact, NATO as well as Chernarussian. Now in game this would create some rivalries and some possible great RP. The Chernarussians I've met have all been great RPers, talking about how we've come into their country and robbed their military outposts and such... but that doesn't explain why there is western weaponry strewn all throughout the 'solely independent' bases. 

 

Also also, this would help with lore inconsistencies in game in my opinion. In this same instance, it was 'we never asked anyone for help with the issue that arose so quickly,' which, according to the lore, is also false. IC it makes sense to believe this from a Nationality based standpoint, so I'm not holding a grudge on this too much.

 

Now the question that this got me on to was what bases do you guys think were American and what were Chernarussian? Do you think that Slavic Russian forces also had a base somewhere in Chernarus? Personally, it's a no brainer that the airbase would be Chernarussian, but I believe small bases like Dichina and possibly Troitske would be NATO. I also believe one of the airfields (Krasnostav or Balota) may have belonged to the NATO forces, as having an airbase would be crucial (but also unlikely since Chernarus and NATO weren't officially allied in lore). 

 

What do you guys think?

I didn't really read through the other responses to your question but here is mine so consider it from the horse's mouth.

There are roughly 3 eras of modern Chernarussian history. Dark times when the republic was forming (1991-2004), the Interim period (2004-2009) where the Chedaki movement began to coalesce and the Chernarussian government was very weak and run by a centrist party with little influence, ending in the civil war, and the Kozlov (2009-present day) which saw the lessening of NATO forces, the increase in size of the Strana Vzkříšení (Resurrection Party) and the CDF, the unification (more or less of the Chernarussian political right and center), and the utter consolidation of the militaristic, statist nationalist faction. It was at this point directly after the war that Chernarus refused to join the EU to play into Russia's hand, they are still part of the UN as every nation is but they limited NATO bases to MNBG 1 and MNBG 2, which is Utes Island and a small base outside of Kirovograd that is mainly comprised of non-American personnel from across NATO's member states. The base on Utes was evacuated in late 2017 if I recall correctly and the base near Kirovograd was utterly destroyed after week 2. 

3914e09928.jpg

(Pro-Kozlov poster 2010)

These bases were the only one used by NATO in Chernarus after 2009. A key desire among the new establishment was to placate the Americans in the aftermath of the war, as the CDF was seen by many as just riding the coat tails of the Marines that liberated South Zagoria. The establishment also ensured that Chernarus did not become a NATO proxy or a battleground for the East and West. Access to local rebuilding contacts and trade agreements that leveraged Chernarus' vast resource wealth made this possible.

The reality was a bit more nuanced on the part of the actual conflict, and this is evident in the harvest red campaign that you can play in Arma 2. We follow "The War That Never Was" ending of the campaign. The simple fact was that once the Marines pushed the Chedaki inland towards Stary Sobor and re-took Krasnostav Airbase to use as a spring board for air attacks the game was pretty much up for the Chedaki as their leadership was hunted down and eliminated by Razor Team with assistance from Chernarussian State Security (COBR) and OREL spetsnaz subunits. 

From Vyshnoye onward, virtually every assault was spearheaded by joint Marine-CDF formations, with the Marines relying heavily on the CDF's army intel branch (there's a portion of the campaign where you as a Marine visit Lieutenant Marny of CDF intel in Electrozavodsk.) The Chernarussian government DID ask for help once it became clear they couldn't handle it. Misinformation is how stories get created, it's part of RP even if it is false.

34556b575a.png

There are western weapons strewn around mainly because of (from a Lore perspective) the movement of so many people groups into and out of the region, moving from place to place, getting eliminated, dropping weapons and cycling them around. The loot table has actually just recently reduced the amount of western weapons that spawn. No Russian forces have maintained bases in territorial Chernarus since 1991. 

The Chernarussian bases in South Zagoria are property of the 93rd Brigade of the CDF and are rightfully government property as far as they are concerned, but nobody is as bothered with looting in such places now as the government has it's territory in the west that is more critical. 

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