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Server time (UTC): 2019-07-22, 12:47
BrianM

S1: Novaya Petrovka Industrial Unreasonable Hostage Demands & Invalid Kill (roleplayed)

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Posted (edited)

Server and location: S1: Novaya Petrovka Industrial 

Approximate time and date of the incident (SERVER TIME): Ended at around 04:30 11/07/19

Your in game name: Elijah Collins

Names of allies involved: @CocoMii - Liah Sharma @Hunter and some other Wolf Pack

Name of suspect/s: Jaysh Allah

Detailed description of the events: Me and @CocoMii had been inside the Wolf Pack camp for hours as we were being protected because our characters are kids. A little while passes and Jaysh Allah come up and try to sort so things out that happened between Wolf Pack and them previously. Things don't work out, it felt like hours pass and finally an initiation is dropped for the Jaysh Allah. @CocoMii and I put our hands up and stayed where we were and were told to come out with our hands up and we would not be harmed. However, we could not do this due to the fact our characters had no idea what the codes were to get out of the base. There was nothing we could do other than sit inside the base with our hands up while Wolf Pack fought back. To finish off this lovely encounter, a chant was made by one of the Jaysh Allah and then a grenade was threw inside the building, killing everyone that was left and two semi compliant hostages. 

 I would also like to point out that several people were streaming this and I will link @Hunter's stream with the timestamps after he has ended it. 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by BrianM

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Liah's POV: 

Me and @BrianM had been hanging out inside the wolf pack camp for a long time and like Brian said, we were being protected since we are children IC. Jaysh Allah came and had a long talk with @Phoenyxx and @Hunter, they didnt quite agree on things and Jaysh Allah went away for a while and came back and went away for a while and eventually they initiated through a megaphone so me and @BrianM put our hands up and they started telling us to get out with our hands up but since we were just there as guests i guess, we didnt have the code for the codelock so we couldnt. Time went by and a granade came through the hatch and killed me, @BrianM and @Hunter

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Posted (edited)

I was there so might as well put my POV

POV: so after an attempt at negotiating with Wolfpack we initiate on their compound and fighting breaks out, after some of the boys get up on the roof of wolfpacks building they chuck a nade in and kill the two combatants and the two “hostages” in the building.

so a couple things here, was it conveyed to us either IC or OOC that you didn’t know the codes to the gate to come out? Because I don’t think it was

Alao why would you just sit on the top floor of the building inches a away from a guy trying to shoot up at us? Why not just go downstairs into a corner where you are out of harms way?

and lastly if you were so keen on actually complying why not just climb up the ladder 10 ft in front of you to get to us where you would have actually been in our custody, you 100% could have complied to our demands and come out to us, you just refused to do so.

Edited by Shroud

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8 hours ago, Shroud said:

-snip-

Not wanting to clutter the thread here, but that was not the demand you made.. You told us to come out of the building with our hands up. You never once said to go to the roof and do it.. Our characters are young, stupid and afraid, why would they walk through a hallway where there is constant shooting? Honestly though if you told us to go to the roof, that would have made the whole situation easier. We even told you guys we don't know the codes and you just left us in there and gave us no other option other than to try and stay out of the gunfire..

Anyway, no need for back and fourth and I will only reply to questions and if staff request it.

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acknowledging. will give pov later

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Hello, I'm the one who initiated on the entire compound, including the building you were in. Telling someone to come out of the building with their hands up is absolutely not an unreasonable demand. Combined with the fact that neither of you ever said anything about being stuck in the building or being locked in, so how on earth would we be able to know that? I told the people in the building, very specifically, to come out with their hands up or they would die. Anybody who stays in the building is dying.

At the end of the day, you two made no attempt to communicate that issue to us or to ask for help on how to get out, and made no attempt to leave the building at all (even though you could literally climb the ladder to the top of the building and get out that way), so making a report over this is ridiculous and in my eyes is a completely false report.

12 hours ago, BrianM said:

killing everyone that was left and two semi compliant hostages

There is no such thing as semi-compliant. You're either fully compliant (by coming out of the building with your hands up), or not compliant at all (making no attempt to even leave the building).

POV: We're in Novaya, trying to negotiate peace with the Wolf Pack, and they refuse peace outright unless we make peace with two or three other groups that they don't speak for. We wait a while, and then attack the compound. I initiate with a megaphone, and also over normal voip when I'm next to the building they're in. I very clearly demanded that everyone in the building was to come out with their hands up, and that if they stayed inside they would die. Everybody in the building was given ample time and opportunities to surrender and come out. Absolutely nobody in that building made an attempt to comply with the demands. So the boys make it onto the roof, and drop a grenade in the building, killing the non-compliers. 

As seen in this clip from Hunter's stream, the demands were incredibly clear: Come out of the building, or die. Hunter told them not to leave the building, effectively trying to use them as human shields as they were sitting right next to Hunter, who was actively shooting at us. You had a choice, a choice that was made very clear - come out of the building, or die. You stayed in the building, so you were non-compliant. That was your choice, so accept the consequences of your choice.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BrianM said:

Not wanting to clutter the thread here, but that was not the demand you made.. You told us to come out of the building with our hands up. You never once said to go to the roof and do it.. Our characters are young, stupid and afraid, why would they walk through a hallway where there is constant shooting? Honestly though if you told us to go to the roof, that would have made the whole situation easier. We even told you guys we don't know the codes and you just left us in there and gave us no other option other than to try and stay out of the gunfire..

Anyway, no need for back and fourth and I will only reply to questions and if staff request it.

Ok bro, if your going to be taking the situation OOC and reporting us for your mistake then your argument is null, because realistically we are talking about your fully developed adult brain here and not your characters brain since we have taken it to this point, if you were talking about it strictly in the sense of RP then your argument would have some merit to it. One would think that we wouldn’t have to spoon feed you instructions in order to use the only exit that could logically get you to us if you actually didn’t know the gate codes.

in this situation the way you placed yourselves in the building and how you clearly did not want to comply to our demands in the first place, it’s almost like you wanted to die.

i don’t even know how you expected us to know you were there in the first place, because I wouldn’t expect a complaint hostage to be standing 5 FT away from an enemy combantant unless they were to be used as a fucking meat shield.

this whole report just seems incredibly petty to me, and a clear attempt to just get someone banned because of a mistake on your side, and to be blatantly honest seems like a clear example of a false report, you had demands that could be followed and refused to listen to them, simple as.

Edited by Shroud

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8 hours ago, Dusty said:

 

That is a lie and we actually had a conversation with one of that we didn't know the codes to get out.. When I get time, I will look through the stream and give you an exact timestamp of when that happened..

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3 hours ago, BrianM said:

That is a lie and we actually had a conversation with one of that we didn't know the codes to get out.. When I get time, I will look through the stream and give you an exact timestamp of when that happened..

wouldn't say its a lie, quite possible the guys didn't hear what you said considering the actual gunfire and the distance between ya, check the stream and see if our guys replied, because i'm not sure if dusty was right next to your building.

Fact still stands you very easily could've climbed a ladder to us.

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Hit logs:

04:11:59 | Player "Bobby Chikens" hit by Player "Zayan Nur Basim" into RightHand(47) for 110 damage (Bullet_308WinTracer) with M14 Springfield from 228.292 meters 
04:11:59 | Player "Bobby Chikens" hit by Player "Zayan Nur Basim" into Torso(24) for 110 damage (Bullet_308WinTracer) with M14 Springfield from 228.292 meters 



04:30:46 | Player "Liah Sharma" hit by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with M67Grenade_Ammo into (-1) for 44.3363 damage (M67Grenade_Ammo)

04:30:46 | Player "Elijah Collins" hit by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with M67Grenade_Ammo into (-1) for 46.9908 damage (M67Grenade_Ammo)
04:30:46 | Player "Lukas Stika" hit by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with M67Grenade_Ammo into (-1) for 50 damage (M67Grenade_Ammo)

04:30:46 | Player "Kenny Kowalski" hit by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with M67Grenade_Ammo into (-1) for 50 damage (M67Grenade_Ammo)

04:31:20 | Player "Liah Sharma" hit by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with M67Grenade_Ammo into (-1) for 45.8464 damage (M67Grenade_Ammo)

Kill logs:

04:30:46 | Player "Liah Sharma" killed by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with 6-M7 Frag Grenade

04:30:46 | Player "Elijah Collins" killed by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with 6-M7 Frag Grenade

04:30:46 | Player "Lukas Stika" killed by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with 6-M7 Frag Grenade.

04:30:46 | Player "Kenny Kowalski" killed by Player "Bobby Sullivan" with 6-M7 Frag Grenade

04:11:59 | Player "Bobby Chikens" killed by Player "Zayan Nur Basim" with M14 Springfield

connection logs:

03:58:55 | Player "Bobby Chikens" is connected
-Dead-

02:42:05 | Player "Zayan Nur Basim" is connected
06:27:28 | Player "Zayan Nur Basim" has been disconnected

02:40:08 | Player "Liah Sharma" is connected
-Dead-

02:43:34 | Player "Bobby Sullivan" is connected
06:28:04 | Player "Bobby Sullivan" has been disconnected

02:43:48 | Player "Elijah Collins" is connected
-Dead-

02:40:44 | Player "Lukas Stika" is connected
-dead-

02:44:17 | Player "Kenny Kowalski" is connected
-Dead-

Calling in the following people for their full detailed POV and possible video evidence

@SexyPutin - Bobby Chikens: POSTED

@Nik - Zayan Nur Basim: POSTED

@CocoMii - Liah Sharma: POSTED

@BobbySullivan - Bobby Sullivan: POSTED

@Hunter - Lukas Stika: POSTED

@bur - Kenny Kowalski: POSTED

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POV: was in the compound when we were initiated on and the 2 children were complying and i recall someone telling them from wolf pack to stay where they were as to not get shot accidentally pretty quickly i walked in front of a window and was shot 

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Posted (edited)

POV: After negotiating didnt work out with them we leave for a bit and then come back and initiate, time goes by and I get on the roof. Demands were made and nobody was complying so I decided to throw the nade down the ladder.

Both of you could have easily gone to the ladder 10m in front of you and came out with your hands up to show you were complying instead of listening to the non compliers and hiding behind them as they had guns raised ready to shoot at us.

 

Edited by BobbySullivan

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Posted (edited)

pov: a muslim man came to talk to luka, after negotiations didnt work out we were later initiated on by the jaysh allah, we had Elijah and Liah in the safest spot we could think off, muslims made it very clear they were going to breach our roof door as one of them started praying, we were also told we would die so we set up to defend the ladder which was the only way in, luka was in front of elijah and liah and i was watching up the ladder opening from the staircase below. Then the grenade is dropped through the ladder hole, luka reacts by shouting "grenade" and i run down another set of stairs and die from a grenade blast through said concrete staircase. Elijah and Liah were compliant with there hands on their head throughout the whole situation.

Edited by bur
missed info

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22 hours ago, BrianM said:

That is a lie and we actually had a conversation with one of that we didn't know the codes to get out.. When I get time, I will look through the stream and give you an exact timestamp of when that happened..

Looking back at the stream, you do say something about not knowing the codes. It's not a lie, I was going off of my memory; I was not near the building when you mentioned the codelocks and nobody said anything about it in our discord, so I didn't think it happened. 

But the fact still remains that you made no real attempt to comply with our demands. You should have climbed the ladder to the roof, where you guys knew we were at, and complied that way. Instead of this, you decided to listen to Hunter and non-comply by staying in the building.

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Posted (edited)

I was the one to negotiate with Luca, we offered peace they denied it so we left. Came back maybe a half hour later initiated on the compound. The demands were clear as day I don’t even understand this report fully. Dusty made sure to be specific and direct in his initiation clearly stating to come out with hands up or they’d be killed.

They had the choice to come out, not knowing the code locks is irrelevant as one of your own members already stated the ladder was fully accessible as they were guarding only that location. It was there choice to stay inside, they were directed by Luca or a higher up to do so. So clearly they wanted to hold up and take there chances thinking we wouldn’t be able to push.

I shot bobby aka sexy Putin because he had his gun out and was aiming down through the windows with his gun out. 

The rest then pushed up the ladder bobby threw the grenade down the stairs and it rolled as you can see through his stream.

 

Edited by Nik
Spelling

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Posted (edited)

Jaysh Allah show up with some random dynamic people around

They attempt to give us a "peace offering/ultimatum" to leave Novaya and such and quit talking to certain people, which we counter offer since such an ultimatum is ridiculous to ask of us. Instead of nit picking us out of the groups of people we live around, we offer to them to go and not only make peace with us, but to make peace with those around us as well and we will gladly accept their offer. They truly want peace, than prove it to us by making it with those around us as well instead of pushing us into a position/light of abandoning people we call friends and family.

They run off a moment, assuming to go and talk to the others nearby and follow through with this, eventually running back, and doing the same thing. We tried remaining calm with them the whole time, before eventually they just keep asking us the same ultimatum until we basically have no choice but to just say no. However, we throw out repeatedly that we are not denying peace. They keep going on saying and accusing us that since we deny their unreasonable demands to pack up and leave for the... what? I don't even fucking know anymore 5th time? More? That that immediately means, ah, they want war then. So they essentially try and put the blame on us trying to make it seem like this way out, and us denying it, is us saying we want war.

Anyways, after they initiate on the compound, a firefight breaks out. Wolfpack do not comply, readying ourselves and preparing to defend, meanwhile @CocoMii and @BrianM comply with their hands up. We move them to a corner away from windows and such to try and avoid having them accidentally shot. Not once did we use them as meat shields. Should be noted as well, they were not on our CP at this time. They were invited to our group after this situation occurred, if that pertains any sort of relevancy to this report. 

Anyways, after a standoff, we hear them climbing a ladder, and jumping from the tower by our base onto our rooftop. A grenade pin gets pulled, tossed down the hatch, yeeted, nice.

Will get video evidence in a bit sometime tomorrow. Just can't be bothered to go through my stream and collect the video evidence from the start to end right now.

Edited by Hunter

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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/451140145 this is hunters stream, im going to just put in some timelines and point things out for staff.

15:13 @Dusty starts his initiation makign it clear who is initiating, who is beign initiated on, where the initiation is coming from etc. At this point all the people inside the industrial compound are told to put their hands up or they will be shot. This initiation ends at about 15:23.

15:25 - you can see hunter up on the top floor (where we breached from) telling another of his group to stay there and to point a gun at the top door and listen incase anyone tries to come through. This is proof they knew there was an entry and exit point seperate from the main doors.

 

15:37 you see the "complying victims" run into the side room and are evebtually told by hunter that the room isn't safe as the attackers can shoot into that room.

 

15:45 (more than 20 secs after the initiation the girl who is supposedly a "complying hostage" is still running around inside and doesn't have her hands up showing she is in fact not complying and we have been granted attackers rights on her.

15:47 you can see hunter go back into the room and the male is still with their hands up.

15:49 the male drops their hands and are no longer complying meaning we now had attackers rights on this person. it looks like that at some stage after the male runs out they decide to comply.

16:58 - the girl informs @Dusty that she has her hands up, the male remains silent

 

17:02 @Dusty acknowledges that he has heard her and says good.

17:05 @Dusty states "If you have your hands up then come out" giving further instructions to anyone that is complying inside. Anyone not complying with this then becomes a non-complying hostage and we also gain the right to kill them.

 

17:07 Hunter tells them not to go outside

17:15 the girl asks hunter whether they should go out, hunter tells her not to go out.

17:21 @Dusty gives clear instructions (which is also a further initiation)to come out or die

 

17:23 Hunter again tells them not to

17:33 the girl hostage then states she doesn't want to be there but this isn't conveying anything to anyone other than a person not wanting to be where a hostile situation is underway.

17:41 the male asks "if we just come out can we leave?" - again not complying.

17:43 Hunter then tells them that the attackers wont just let them leave

 

17:49 @Dusty tells them if it is just the child they are fine.

18:01 @Dusty again tells them to come out with their hands up. At this point neither of the so called "complying hostages" have actually complied with any further instructions for about 44 secs.

18:09 Hunter tells them to stay in there and they will be fine (again telling them not to comply)

18:15 the male says something along the lines of they will be trapped in there for hours in response to hunter.

18:18  dusty responds by again telling them to come out with their hands up.

18:25 all 3 people inside are talking over each other, after watching it several times trying to work out what is being said, i can see that he said something about not being able to come out, but at the time this wasn't clear. then you hear the female say something about the codes. Again at this point neither of them are actually even trying to comply, they are still in the room, not even moving toward an exit.

18:28 @Dusty informs them that everyone in there will die unless they come out with their hands up then the male says he doesn't know the codse so they cant get out. Again, there is no effort to actually move towards an exit and they are not complying with the demands they have been given.

19:15 @Dusty tells the wolf pack to stop using the girl as a human shield and to let them out.

19:21 @Dusty tells them again to send her out. 21:04 @diamond again tells the people inside to come out with their hands up 22:09 @dew (i think) tells the female to come out with her hands up

 

22:11 hunter tells them not to, the so called "complying hostages" make no effort to even get to a doorway or to go up the ladder when they themselves can see that hunter is aiming up at the ladder. To claim that they cant get out at this point is just a lie.

29:26 hunter states that he can hear us climbing the ladder outside and is still aimed up at the ladder, the hostages can hear and see this and still make no attempt to leave despite clearly knowing at this point that there is a way out other than the door 2 floors below them.

29:37 you can clearly hear us running on the top floor and hunter is even saying IC that it is us. He is still aiming up the ladder in full view of the hostages.

29:47 the female makes a noise and hunter tells them to be quiet, she obeys his instructions

29:51 the female is moving around as can be seen in the video.

 

31:57 - hunter begins to metagame, discussing people coming to possibly join the fight over the radio without actually talking in game. This is not OOC information, this is direct information relating to people coming into the area. at around 30 minute mark they are aware that we are on the top floor.

33:49 hunter states that we are on top of their place right now. This is said right in front of the so called "complying hostages"

34:40 hunter repeats that we are on the roof. At this point, even if they could not have seen hunter aiming up at the ladder for like 12 minutes (which they both clearly did) or heard the multiple other instances of hunter saying they are above them on the roof (which they both clearly did), it is obviously both IC and OOC that there is a way out other than the door and that they can go up.

38:55 Allah, hearing the kafir taunt his loyal followers and question his greatness guides my grenade onto 5 of the non-compliers and they die.

 

So lets just summarise this: Initial non-compliance by female to the original demand granting us rights.

Initial compliance then non-compliance by the male, granting us rights, then he changes his mind again and complies to the initial demand again. ignoring further commands given by the attackers in favour of those in the building with them thereby granting us rights again (even though we already had rights). Continuing non-compliance for over 21 minutes by refusing to come outside (again granting us rights which we already had). At least 12 minutes of knowing IC that there was a way out up top and still not complying with the multiple times they were told to come out with their hands up. Again, even if they didn't know beforehand, they had at least 12 minutes of knowing and intentional non-compliance to the multiple demands to come out of the building even if we assume they didnt know when the initiations were dropped.

Clear meta-gaming by hunter (unless I am blind and have missed the mic icon come up).

Lying in a report by both accusers

False report

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On 7/14/2019 at 2:11 PM, BobbySullivan said:

31:57 - hunter begins to metagame, discussing people coming to possibly join the fight over the radio without actually talking in game. This is not OOC information, this is direct information relating to people coming into the area. at around 30 minute mark they are aware that we are on the top floor.

Just gonna say out right this is not me metagaming, this is me talking OOC in discord because from what he was telling me, people are coming to join the fight that didn't actually initiate on the fight that are dynamics. This was not me metagaming, this was me expressing my concern for the possibility of invalid kills and such coming in. You can even hear me throwing out that Jaysh Allah were the only ones that initiated, me thanking him for the heads up as I am trying to avoid any sort of invalid kills, and even saying yikes.

Sorry, but this isn't metagaming. This is me keeping OOC stuff from being said in game, which you know... is a rule not to talk OOC in voip.

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Summary:

Members of the jaysh allah initiated on the compound in novaya petrovka were @BrianM & @CocoMii are. After the initiation they both go into the f5 animation later on @Dusty is on the outside of the compound and utters the words ''Come out or die''. @Hunter then tells @BrianM & @CocoMii ''There gonna use you against us'' dusty responds to this by saying ''Were not like you sick f***s we will never use a child'' which @BrianM responds ''If we come out can we just leave'' @Hunter responds and tells them ''There not gonna let you just leave'' @Dusty then responds again saying ''If it's the child then there fine''. @Dusty says again ''You all need to come out with your hands up'' after this comment the firefight continues. The members of the jaysh allah gain access to the roof of the wolfpack's compound were @BobbySullivan throws a grenade down the hatch located on the roof killing @BrianM & @CocoMii

Rulebreaks:

@Hunter At the 32-minute mark of you twitch vod you relay in character information over 3rd party communication without double micing.

Spoiler

3.6 Using OOC communications like Discord, TeamSpeak or others to transmit or receive information related to in game situations is only allowed when you have a personal radio item in your inventory. As soon as your character loses the ability to speak or use the radio - for example has died, is unconscious, has been gagged, is surrendering (F1 or F2 animation), is handcuffed or had your radio item or clothing containing it removed from your inventory - you may not receive or transmit any in game information through OOC communications. While in presence of other players all such communication should also be transmitted in game using "double mic" mechanic. This means transmitting both through in game VOIP and external software simultaneously.

@BrianM & @CocoMii We have deemed the kill upon yourself as valid due to the fact that @Dusty stated multiple times that you can exit the compound and you will be let go, you both choose to ignore this and remain within the compound resulting in your deaths.


Evidence:

Spoiler

 

Suggestions: 
@CocoMii & @BrianM In the future when you are a part of these type of hostile situations if someone gives you a way out as @Dusty did provide then take it.

@Hunter When transmitting any ic information over third-party communication be sure to always double mic as to relay the information to your in game allies or when other players are around. When speaking ooc while in-game be sure not to relay any ic information for example, when you were talking with people in your discord you discuss that there are possibly more people coming to join the fight, and you also state that they would have to re-initiate if they want to get involved. So the part where you say they would have to re-initiate is completely fine because its ooc, but because you had a conversation about their being more people on their way to you without double micing is against the rules because it is ic information being received through ooc means without being double miced.

Verdict:
@BobbySullivan - Invalid Kill (roleplayed) - Not Guilty
@Hunter - Metagaming - Verbal Warning


SIGNED - @Realize@Samti & @Randy

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