Kill rights.

[Eagle 3396]

Now that we have played with these kill rights I've seen some many weird situations that continue to be dragged out due to not being able to act on actions that are ongoing IG.
Take this situation for example in this case people that do have rights are in an ongoing firefight and now his fellow bratr wants to join the action to assist his friend but him running into the situation to try to initiate was claimed as baiting and all rights gained invalid making it out that I cannot join an ongoing situation unless I have the approved statues as I would have rights in similar situations.
Now I log in today and I'm just chilling about and hear my friends getting blasted due to rights they gained from a previous situation but by your rule standpoint I cannot join the fight as that would be baiting for rights, from my standpoint I should have been capable to shoot the once killing my friends but due to restrictions that make no sense I cannot do anything and just have to hope my friends survive the situation.
TLDR: Approved rights are fine but have to many layers that restrict others from interacting with said rights that it makes it pointless almost to join into those situations unless your right on top of it.
Dynamic rights are whack and make no sense.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Eagle

[Aisling 2716]

Do defensive KOS rights extend to ALL allies or only those present in the situation or only those initiated on too?? 

[Eagle 3396]

Just now, Aisling said:

Do defensive KOS rights extend to ALL allies or only those present in the situation or only those initiated on too?? 

Approved groups can log into whenever and blast you for said rights, Dynamics have to have RPed with the people in that situation to act on them.

[Apollo 361]

1 minute ago, Eagle said:

Approved groups can log into whenever and blast you for said rights, Dynamics have to have RPed with the people in that situation to act on them.

basically log in and shoot if you in a group. I think old dynamic rights were good, they made sense to me, dynamic groups now barely are around now because approved groups have way more rights 

[Dusty 3413]

We just really need the old KOS rights honestly. 

Not even the staff members fully understand how they work in every situation. The rules need to be straightforward and streamlined, aka easy to understand, not complicated for no reason.

A lot of the players are just casual players and don't want to make a group and wait the long amount of time it can take for a group to get accepted. The KOS rights rule needs to be how it used to be, so that anybody could understand it, so that more players stay.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Dusty

[Eagle 3396]

5 minutes ago, Dusty said:

We just really need the old KOS rights honestly. 

Not even the staff members fully understand how they work in every situation. The rules need to be straightforward and streamlined, aka easy to understand, not complicated for no reason.

Fully agree with you here as in this post a GM seems to be confused on what rules shes trying to enforce.

Poll added to see if people wish to give the old KOS rights as chance.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Eagle

[BorisVC 0]

Yes

Kos rights now are weird

They get twisted in verdicts and theres no clear answer 

 

We either needs better rights or just old rights

[RedRP 79]

Old rights were great, it's too unclear right now in my opinion. I voted yes to change them back to the old ones.

[Aisling 2716]

Old rights please, I understand the attempt to give defenders a better chance but this just confuses everyone and results in unneeded deaths imo

[Diamond 729]

Old kos rights. This new shits wack and confusing I still have to ask before I shoot 

[FalkRP 2285]

Old kill rights are alot easier to understand for newcomers New rules are very confusing. I have to ask to if I rights every single time. 

[Roland 12406]

7 hours ago, Eagle said:

Approved rights are fine but have to many layers that restrict others from interacting with said rights that it makes it pointless almost to join into those situations unless your right on top of it.

Not sure I understand? Approved group kill right sharing is unlimited and work similarly to the old rules. What do you mean by restricting layers?

 

7 hours ago, Eagle said:

Dynamic rights are whack and make no sense.

Again, how? They allow random people who play together to defend each other from external threats. Working exactly as intended.

[Kase 533]

I would have to say the only thing I find a bit wishy washy is the rules regarding logging on in your base during a raid and getting kos'd because your approved group has been already initiated on and decided to not comply.

[AndreyQ 5540]

Said it before. Would love the old kos rights back. Not gonna happen though.

[Mak 0]

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

Not sure I understand? Approved group kill right sharing is unlimited and work similarly to the old rules. What do you mean by restricting layers?

 

Again, how? They allow random people who play together to defend each other from external threats. Working exactly as intended.

A dynamic group isn't necessarily random people playing together tho. Having to be exactly where a situation is happening or having just role-played with your guys in order to defend them from an initiation is a bit of a dumb rule. What's even worse tho is the whole difference between defensive rights and attacking rights: not being able to fire back if your friend initiates on someone and gets killed (even if you're right next to them), unless you have initiated yourself.

They old ones used to be less confusing and easier to work with, unsure as to why they were ever removed. 

[andysuter 309]

I must admit, the whole kill rights thing is confusing for me as a newbie.

Before the group im in become approved I queried a situation on a report involving us. It was explained to me by my colleagues that each person in the dymanic group would have to personally initiate on each one of the opposing group. That could get so messy and in reality would just be a completely confusing situation.

Personally, I think it needs to be simplified a lot more. Eg if you are running with a bunch of mates and get into a conflict, you should get rights to assist each other. Equally, if you log on and hear ‘radio chatter’ that you mates are in a firefight and need assistance, you should be able to go help them (using normal rules of the server etc).

However, the flip side is that we need to protect the work and effort that goes into setting up and maintaining an approved group. To water this down would mean people wont bother and we could end up with a complete blood bath on the server.

[Roland 12406]

16 minutes ago, Mak said:

A dynamic group isn't necessarily random people playing together tho. Having to be exactly where a situation is happening or having just role-played with your guys in order to defend them from an initiation is a bit of a dumb rule. What's even worse tho is the whole difference between defensive rights and attacking rights: not being able to fire back if your friend initiates on someone and gets killed (even if you're right next to them), unless you have initiated yourself.

They old ones used to be less confusing and easier to work with, unsure as to why they were ever removed. 

That's exactly the problem and cause why they were removed - "A dynamic group isn't necessarily random people playing together". The old dynamic group kill rights were created for dynamic, temporary groups. However, people playing as organized groups used those dynamic rights in a way which was not intentional - they are not dynamic after all. So the old rights were removed and we have split the rights to work as intended - the real dynamic groups with randoms who just temporarily play with each other get the rights they need (defend each other), while the organized groups who are not dynamic can get the rights they want, but need to put in a little effort and create a group and get approved.

It also works well for having control over how many people can actually be hostile in game and keeping balance on the server. Being hostile without an approved group is extremely clunky and confusing - as you pointed out and that's exactly how it's meant to be, to not allow for an effective way to play as an organized group without being approved. It also pushes more people towards creating groups

[Eagle 3396]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

That's exactly the problem and cause why they were removed - "A dynamic group isn't necessarily random people playing together". The old dynamic group kill rights were created for dynamic, temporary groups. However, people playing as organized groups used those dynamic rights in a way which was not intentional - they are not dynamic after all. So the old rights were removed and we have split the rights to work as intended - the real dynamic groups with randoms who just temporarily play with each other get the rights they need (defend each other), while the organized groups who are not dynamic can get the rights they want, but need to put in a little effort and create a group and get approved.

It also works well for having control over how many people can actually be hostile in game and keeping balance on the server. Being hostile without an approved group is extremely clunky and confusing - as you pointed out and that's exactly how it's meant to be, to not allow for an effective way to play as an organized group without being approved. It also pushes more people towards creating groups

Dynamic groups are your unapproved groups that get stuck in limbo because your team refuses to approve them ontop of that if your telling me it's normal then you haven't played with them.

You ban people who try to work with your rules who run into fights because your rules force them to yolo It in to get rights, people see there friends get dropped but they cannot do anything if they do ban yay fun times.

This does not change who can be hostile your a joker if you think that, you rather have your rules stupidly written to fit a weird idea that people are forced to play in weird rule limbo so you can ban them is that what I'm getting at here?

Edited July 10, 2019 by Eagle

[Roland 12406]

48 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Dynamic groups are your unapproved groups that get stuck in limbo because your team refuses to approve them ontop of that if your telling me it's normal then you haven't played with them.

You ban people who try to work with your rules who run into fights because your rules force them to yolo It in to get rights, people see there friends get dropped but they cannot do anything if they do ban yay fun times.

This does not change who can be hostile your a joker if you think that, you rather have your rules stupidly written to fit a weird idea that people are forced to play in weird rule limbo so you can ban them is that what I'm getting at here?

You seem to be a little upset, are you ok?

I realize that during approval stage of a group they have to play as a dynamic. For vast majority of groups that is not an issue, since they have no need to initiate that often. From what I have seen, groups first few goals usually involve more peaceful goals like building a base, trading, gathering information or getting their name out there through means that do not involve initiations. Then, when they get approved they move onto their hostile goals, if any.

If people run into firefights and show no value for their life then I don't see how that is my fault, my rules do not "force" you to do so. One can just let go and accept defeat if one is in an unfavorable position, no need to "yolo" it. It's ok to lose sometimes if you don't have the tools required to win like the attacker rights.

It changes massively who can be hostile and who cannot, because without attacker kill rights you're so much at a disadvantage and completely without reinforcements, your people will keep dying while "running into firefights" just like you said yourself above. I don't write rules to ban people, I can do that on my own personal whim, don't need the justification or backing of the rules to do so. Rules are there to show YOU the players the guidelines about what you can or cannot do, not to justify our bans.

Like I said, it is working as intended. Old kill rights allowed for groups of hostile RPers to attack everything that moves without any kind of staff checkups or approval and often without consequences of their actions - they would just swap to a new random character and continue. That is not possible anymore with the new rules and although they are a bit more complicated than the old ones, I think it's a fair trade off as in return we gain more control over hostilities on the server and more groups requesting to be approved.

[Kyle_Lucian 4]

I am brand new, and have yet to even be accepted so my opinion here is limited if any at all. 

I will say I am some what intimidated by the "rights system". As a new user or "outside perspective" I look at the rules as I did ROE in Afghanistan. If I feel I am in so much danger I have to kill to survive, do it and take the punishment. As for defending people, if I join some type of clan I understand it to mean if they are under fire I can defend them. As far as playing a hero character to try and "save" players from their attackers I do not understand how this would work. I am lucky in the fact that I would not RP that role anyway right now.

The engagement rules being confusing was one of the things I weighed when I was trying to decide on a community to join. I enjoy a challenge and at worst I screw them up and get banned. That being said I am a little worried about getting invested in this game and being banned at the point I am happy with my character progression. I really hope the rules are more clear as I play, but if not this could be an issue.

Its one thing to not KOS, it is another to lose my character and gear because I was so afraid of being banned I could not make a decision. I am also worried about collateral damage. If I am in a firefight and another nonaffiliated member runs up on me, how do I determine friend v foe v neutral and go through a hostile decision process all over again while being engaged?

I am not trying to make any waves here or change any type of rule. I am just pointing out as a new member these are things I am worried about. I read that when stuck between Role Play and Rule Play to choose Role Play every time. This is what I intend on doing, as my characters role isnt going to be a bandit/murdering type or hero type anyway.

[groovy chow 215]

Just to put it in layman's terms, you want the same kill rights as an approved group. Without proving you can pass the group approval for said rights? 

[Eagle 3396]

4 minutes ago, groovy chow said:

Just to put it in layman's terms, you want the same kill rights as an approved group. Without proving you can pass the group approval for said rights? 

No old rights never allowed you to be anywhere on the map nor log into a situation and start gassing.
You had to be within a certain range to be able to join the fight and be logged in.

[groovy chow 215]

5 minutes ago, Eagle said:

-snip-

Alright, I understand.

As for my own opinion, I can't really say I prefer the old rules. I understand these new ones rather easily without complication. Maybe one of the only rules I miss being explicitly stated is that people who just walk into a firefight and are shot cannot put the fighters at fault. But other than that, I'm indifferent to be completely honest.

[ChilliconCarne 101]

pretty hard for me to say yes or no, not enough experience with this new rule

[Dusty 3413]

Going back to the old KOS rights would be pretty easy, especially now that we have better logs that track position. The old rule was that you had to be within 500 meters of the hostile situation when it happened, and had to have been in the server. The rule was simple, and easily understood by everyone. There was basically no room for potential confusion. 

I was under the impression that the old ruleset was scrapped in order to make things easier to understand and less restricting. Of course there must be rules against KOS and randomly killing people, but the community still strives for realism. The current KOS rights system contradicts that and is confusing to a great many people still, even though this ruleset has been in place for ~10 months. 

If the rule has been a thing for that long, and not even all the staff members or the veteran players understand it, then that is a terrible sign.