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Mystery

S1 - Berezino - 07/01/2019 - RDM

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Server and location: S1 - Border of Berezino

Approximate time and date of the incident (SERVER TIME): 14:30-14:35

Your in game name: Evan Rose

Names of allies involved: @Bsigo

Name of suspect/s: CDF

Friendly/Enemy vehicles involved (if any): N/a

Additional evidence? (video/screenshot):

16:15 is were the situation starts. 04:55 shows that we both complied with their demands of removing our headgear. Watch the entire thing to see that we were not kicked out once.

Detailed description of the events: I got intel that Matt, someone i have a grudge against, were in Berezino. So i logged on and did some simple RP with Matt, Lilly, Callum and another guy. We then made our way to the Wolfpacks house but before we can make it there we were stopped by CDF and told to take our masks off. We do so in a not so willing manner and circle around to were The Watch live. We hear A LOT of gunfire and assume it is just infected, @Bsigo shoots and kills one infected before we run out of the Berezino, since we knew CDF would come and we had masks on again. We simple sat and watched CDF swarm us, but since we were outside the city lines we thought there would be no trouble. We then inform them that @Bsigo shot 5 or so bullets at one infected but they didn't believe us. 1 or 2 minutes later they tell us that we are being ''detained'', just detained and we should put our guns on the ground (no guns were pointed at us) a person then walks up and tries to handcuff me, so i pull out my weapon, not aiming it and instantly gets shot in the head.

Edited by EvanPVE
Added video

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POV: We are patrolling Upper Berezino when we bump into OP and his friend, we tell them to take off their masks off, they refuse so we escort them out of the town. About 5 minutes later they return and we hear lots of gunfire near the Watchmen base, @groovy stannis and I go and chat with The Watch, who told us that it was OP and his friend shooting as the rest of the CDF question OP and his friend. @groovy stannis and I return to the conversation and tell @Ducky who is questioning OP that it was infact the OP who was shooting. @Ducky decides that he is going to detain the OP and his friend in order to question them further, as this is the 2nd time within 5 minutes they have been kicked out of town. Several times the OP and his friend were told to drop their weapons and to put their hands behind their backs to be tied up. They continue to argue to the point where @groovy tander screams "drop the fucking weapons on the floor" and @Harlow approaches OP from behind with tape to restrain him. At this point, OP pulls out his weapon and shuffles backwards so I shoot him.

Why did you think it was a good idea to pull out your gun when you are surrounded by 7 of us?

Edited by groovy ming
Spelling mistake

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Connection Logs:

Spoiler
14:14:10 | Player "Evan Rose" is connected
-DEAD-
14:34:24 | Player "Evan Rose" has been disconnected

13:50:07 | Player "Taras Polek" is connected

13:22:25 | Player "Callum Skies" is connected

 

Hit Logs:

Spoiler
14:34:22 | Player "Evan Rose"[HP: 72.5] hit by Player "Taras Polek" into Torso(12) for 27.5 damage (Bullet_556x45) with M4-A1 from 14.0778 meters 
14:34:22 | Player "Evan Rose"[HP: 45] hit by Player "Taras Polek" into Torso(24) for 27.5 damage (Bullet_556x45) with M4-A1 from 14.0778 meters 
14:34:22 | Player "Evan Rose"[HP: 27.0601] hit by Player "Taras Polek" into RightArm(30) for 55 damage (Bullet_556x45) with M4-A1 from 14.0805 meters 
14:34:22 | Player "Evan Rose" (DEAD)[HP: 0] hit by Player "Taras Polek" into Torso(1) for 27.5 damage (Bullet_556x45) with M4-A1 from 14.0805 meters 
14:34:22 | Player "Evan Rose" (DEAD)[HP: 0] hit by Player "Taras Polek" into Head(0) for 55 damage (Bullet_556x45) with M4-A1 from 14.107 meters 
14:34:22 | Player "Evan Rose" (DEAD)[HP: 0] hit by Player "Taras Polek" into Head(0) for 55 damage (Bullet_556x45) with M4-A1 from 14.2215 meters 

 

Kill Logs:

Spoiler
14:34:22 | Player "Evan Rose" (DEAD) killed by Player "Taras Polek" with M4-A1 from 14.0805 meters

 

Chat Logs:

Spoiler
14:20:23 | Chat("Callum Skies"): *He'd lower his mask to his neck, showing his large carved smile scar on his face*
14:38:03 | Chat("Callum Skies"): //he has wrong char model lol
14:43:00 | Chat("Callum Skies"): *He'd have a large carved smile on his face*

 

Calling in to post PoV's:

@EvanPVE | Evan Rose | POSTED
@groovy ming | Taras Polek | POSTED
@Bsigo | Callum Skies | POSTED

Please post a FULL and DETAILED POV and any VIDEO EVIDENCE you have

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1 hour ago, groovy ming said:

POV: We are patrolling Upper Berezino when we bump into OP and his friend, we tell them to take off their masks off, they refuse so we escort them out of the town. About 5 minutes later they return and we hear lots of gunfire near the Watchmen base, @groovy stannis and I go and chat with The Watch, who told us that it was OP and his friend shooting as the rest of the CDF question OP and his friend. @groovy stannis and I return to the conversation and tell @Ducky who is questioning OP that it was infact the OP who was shooting. @Ducky decides that he is going to detain the OP and his friend in order to question them further, as this is the 2nd time within 5 minutes they have been kicked out of town. Several times the OP and his friend were told to drop their weapons and to put their hands behind their backs to be tied up. They continue to argue to the point where @groovy tander screams "drop the fucking weapons on the floor" and @Harlow approaches OP from behind with tape to restrain him. At this point, OP pulls out his weapon and shuffles backwards so I shoot him.

Why did you think it was a good idea to pull out your gun when you are surrounded by 7 of us?

I was being detained, not robbed or anything in that manner. If all 7 of you posed a threat to me i would never have pulled out my gun, but since all 7 or how many of you there were all had your guns lowered and was just talking to us, i saw to threat against me or my friend. You NEVER have your guns on your back either, so all 7 of you having your guns out didn't even change the situation at all. Don't you think that i would have been able to at least kill the guy in front of me if i really wanted too? But instead i pulled out my weapon, not aiming, and stepped back.

We simply tried to RP it out and you choose to take direct action focusing on PVP instead of RP. 

-This statement is wrong, the video will tell - they refuse so we escort them out of the town. 

-This statement is wrong, the video will tell - as this is the 2nd time within 5 minutes they have been kicked out of town.

- I would more say, speaking loudly, but still posing no threat, no guns pointed, nothing and everyone including myself was speaking. - "drop the fucking weapons on the floor''

 

Hostile actions are player interactions where you or your group members lives are threatened by other players, you are forced to do something against your will under threat of violence, someone is stealing from you, etc. For example, if someone is telling you to drop your weapon and put your hands up or else you will die, he is committing a hostile action against you. 

 

I was simply being what you guys call detained, if we can start using different words for hostile actions the server would be a damn mess. You never posed a threat, threatened my life or anything that gives you the right to simply shoot a person for pulling out his gun.

 

How can detaining someone without showing any direct threat or making any direct threats over VOIP be an initiation OR a direct threat to someones life? If you had simply pointed your guns, given us consequences or anything like that, then you would have been a direct threat AND it would have been a proper initiation. This counts more as strongarming.

Edited by EvanPVE

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My POV: I told evan over Radio that Matt and Lilly were at their camp. Evan then logged in and we did a bit of RP with Matt and Lilly, nothing special. Evan then decided on going down the wolfpacks house, so i followed him. On the way we ran into CDF who told us to take our masks of and we did, but not willingly. We then left town and but turned around to were The Watch lives. We heard gunfire in front of the compound but thought it was just infected. I kill a few infected and run up to Evan who is standing outside Berezino watching. We then see CDF running towards us but decide to do nothing, since we were outside the City Limits. We talk to them a bit and they question us about what happened and complaining about us having our masks on as we were outside the City Limits. Of course we didn't listen and they didn't believe us telling us that we were being detained and we should put our guns on the ground. We RP a bit more with them. A guy then tries to handcuff Evan and he walks back pulling out his gun and then instantly gets shot.

I saw no guns being pointed or any threats to our lives being made.

Unfortunately I have no video proof, but it's basically the same as @EvanPVE

 

Edited by Bsigo
Video Proof

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Ok to stop this going further and potentially becoming a back and forth I would like to ask that only needed relevant information be posted.  

@EvanPVE can you please provide the video evidence to the report

@groovy ming can you or any of your group provide any video evidence of the situation? 

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4 minutes ago, Voodoo said:

Ok to stop this going further and potentially becoming a back and forth I would like to ask that only needed relevant information be posted.  

@EvanPVE can you please provide the video evidence to the report

@groovy ming can you or any of your group provide any video evidence of the situation? 

Video evidence was added 15minutes ago.

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Ducky POV:

First dealt with the two trouble makers not wanting to take their masks off. After they leave town shots are heard and they are the assumed shooters, we move to their location, talk with them for a bit and make the call to detain them after confirming with Watch that our information was correct.

We instruct the two that they are detained while surrounding them with our weapons drawn, we tell them to put their weapons on the floor and hands behind their back, and we reinforce this by stating that we wont be asking them again and to not make this difficult, they were clearly under threat and were instructed what to do with their weapons and their hands, this is in all cases an initiation, and there is no doubt about that.

'The OP decides to pull his weapon while surrounding by several armed soldiers and it ends in his loss of life. One could consider this NVFL after disregarding demands and pulling his weapon out.'

His comrade is then detained, taken inside and questioned, after which he is let go on a compromise.

 

Below are two timestamps from the video provided by the OP as well as the definition of detainment.

- 19:45 - 'Evan and Callum, for the moment you're currently being detained. Hand over your weapons. You're being detained "explanation" Harlow: Hands behind your back, weapons on the ground please.

Tander: Put your weapons on the ground we wont ask you again.

- 20:05 - Pulls weapon out and backs away at which point he is shot for non compliance.
https://gyazo.com/7741c097a4af27b70264ce8a9156e1b3 

 

No video evidence from our end.

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Calling in @groovy tander, @groovy stannis and @Harlow to post their POV and any VIDEO EVIDENCE they may have.

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no vid

POV: Was up on crane spotting for active CDF patrols, spot a duo of suspicious individuals with masks and call them out. I slide down and join in the squad, we approach the duo(OP) and escort them out of the upper part of Berezino and move them East.

About 5 minutes later I'm on top of the hospital and spot the same 2 people shooting sporadically in the town. We go out again on the patrol, myself and @groovy ming speak to the occupants of the Watch base, while the rest of the patrol talks to OP and his friend. The people outside The Watch base confirm it was the duo shooting, so we head up to the patrol and OP.

This is basically where the video evidence at 16:15 starts, the men initiate and ming shoots OP as he pulls out a weapon. 

Edited by groovy stannis

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37 minutes ago, groovy stannis said:

no vid

POV: Was up on crane spotting for active CDF patrols, spot a duo of suspicious individuals with masks and call them out. I slide down and join in the squad, we approach the duo(OP) and escort them out of the upper part of Berezino and move them East.

About 5 minutes later I'm on top of the hospital and spot the same 2 people shooting sporadically in the town. We go out again on the patrol, myself and @groovy ming speak to the occupants of the Watch base, while the rest of the patrol talks to OP and his friend. The people outside The Watch base confirm it was the duo shooting, so we head up to the patrol and OP.

This is basically where the video evidence at 16:15 starts, the men initiate and ming shoots OP as he pulls out a weapon. 

Quick question: How can you spot the same 2 people shooting sporadically in the town, when my video evidence show that we did not do that?

Edited by EvanPVE

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Conscript Zdenek POV:

We assembled a fireteam to speak to a group of people we were suspecting of negligently discharging their firearms in upper Berezino, amongst other things. After conversing with the duo, Ducky orders us to detain them to resume further questioning at the FOB. Naturally, I whip out my handcuffs and walk behind Evan, instructing him clearly to turn around, drop his weapon and put his hands behind his back. His response was to quickly back away from me while reaching for the M16 on his back. He was then immediately gunned down by one of the other conscripts.

No video evidence from my side.

Edited by Harlow

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sorry I didn't see this sooner, notification didn't come up.

I had been patrolling town for a while before my first interaction with the OP, him and his friend had been walking around with masks on to which I told them to take them off. They continued walking after I had told them to stop to which I called in support from the other CDF in the area. The OP creates an negative attitude which is carried over to when he is killed. From there they're told to get out of town if they want to wear their masks and from there we dont see them until the second altercation. 

On the second time, there are a large amount of shots coming from the direction of the lumberyard, all patrols are told to go to that area, to my surprise I find the OP. The continued smart alek attitude creates tensions between each party to the point in which they are told they are being detained and to drop their weapons. As one of our guys were handcuffing him, he pulls out a weapon and is promptly shot for it.

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Just posting a final time to reiterate to staff and Evan himself that the initiation was clear, and there is no doubts.

 

1. EvanPVE was infact surrounded by multiple armed men with their guns out.

2. You were informed that you were detained, and you were told two things. Put your fucking guns on the ground, don't make this hard.

3. You were then approached from behind to be handcuffed where you turned around, again here you are told to turn around, put your guns on the ground and place your hands behind your back.

4. You then decide because the words "Or you are dead" haven't been spoken that it was the best idea to NVFL thinking that you could hide behind rule armor.

 

In this circumstance like many others, it was very clear to the OP that it was a hostile situation, it was very clear that he was initiated on and it was very clear his intentions was to resist, I cannot possibly see how someone can miss-judge this situation.

 

@EvanPVE If you would like to talk about this you are more than welcome to message me on discord, albeit given that you chose to put this up rather than talk to us in the first place, I doubt you are willing to talk it out.

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8 hours ago, Ducky said:

Just posting a final time to reiterate to staff and Evan himself that the initiation was clear, and there is no doubts.

 

1. EvanPVE was infact surrounded by multiple armed men with their guns out.

2. You were informed that you were detained, and you were told two things. Put your fucking guns on the ground, don't make this hard.

3. You were then approached from behind to be handcuffed where you turned around, again here you are told to turn around, put your guns on the ground and place your hands behind your back.

4. You then decide because the words "Or you are dead" haven't been spoken that it was the best idea to NVFL thinking that you could hide behind rule armor.

 

In this circumstance like many others, it was very clear to the OP that it was a hostile situation, it was very clear that he was initiated on and it was very clear his intentions was to resist, I cannot possibly see how someone can miss-judge this situation.

 

@EvanPVE If you would like to talk about this you are more than welcome to message me on discord, albeit given that you chose to put this up rather than talk to us in the first place, I doubt you are willing to talk it out.

Response.

 

1. Guns out doesn't mean hostile intent or that my life is threatened. Pointing your gun at me would have made it a huge difference.

-Imagine me walking up to someone and telling them that they are being detained with my guns drawn but not pointed and then 5-10 seconds later shooting them because they didn't ''comply'' in what world do you think that is okay?

2. The word detained is not a threat or hostile. Telling people to put their guns down without any consequences is not a threat or an hostile act, it is a request.

-Since no direct threats were shown or told this would fall under strongarming and in a strongarming situation you have no right to kill the person if they do not comply.

3. I was approached, since when is being approached a hostile act or a threat to my life?

4. Calling in NVFL is just insane, if you at any point had told or shown that my life was in danger the entire situation would have been different. It's not on me to sit and think if you are being hostile or not, if my life was in danger or not and so on, YOU HAVE TO SHOW OR TELL ME.

 

As i did before, i will state the rule here for you to read, i will even mark the important parts with red and everything you guys missed with bold text. 

 

4 Hostilities 

Hostile actions are player interactions where you or your group members lives are threatened by other playersyou are forced to do something against your will under threat of violence, someone is stealing from you, etc. For example, if someone is telling you to drop your weapon and put your hands up or else you will die, he is committing a hostile action against you. 

 

I would actually have talked this over a long time ago, but i was never contacted.

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Yikes man.

Here are two phrases which both constitute an initiation.

 

"You are being robbed, put your hands up."

 

"You are being detained, put your weapons on the ground and hands behind your back."

 

 

Both of these phrases state a hostile action (Robbery/Detainment)

And both of them are followed by very clear instructions on what to do.

How you can possibly misunderstand or be surprised that you were shot is beyond me.

 

However, at this point it seems both from our DM conversation and this report that you are hellbent on the idea that all initiations must follow the Arma 3 Life template of "Do or die"

I've said my concerns, stated my views and my arguments and we'll leave the staff to handle the rest I suppose.

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Guest Xehara

@EvanPVE Staff has discussed this initiation and deemed it valid. There were clear demands given while a collection of armed men stood by and proceeded to approach yourself and your friends. The intent and tone was enough to be seen as a hostile act and thus a valid initiation. Due to the new precedent this sets, would you like to keep this report open?

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@Xehara If i get explained how it was a valid initiation and kill reason even though looking at the rules and previous report verdicts it is clearly not and i agree with that statement, i will happily close it. But i simply cannot fathom how staff came to that conclusion. 

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I'd like to keep this open due to the OP's NVFL nature.

@Xehara

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Guest Xehara

@Ducky | Invalid Initiation | NOT GUILTY
@groovy ming | Invalid Kill (Roleplayed) | NOT GUILTY
@EvanPVE | NVFL | GUILTY

Summary:

@EvanPVE and his friend enter Berezino with face masks on. @Ducky and the rest of the CDF approach them, ask them to take their masks off, and escort them to the edge of town. @EvanPVE and his friend fire weapons back into town where infected are, alerting the CDF to their location. The CDF speak to both @EvanPVE and the other people shooting at the same infected. Upon further investigation, the CDF deem @EvanPVE and his friend to be troublemakers and proceed to tell them to put their weapons on the ground as they are being detained. Instead, @EvanPVE takes his gun into his hands and is then shot by @groovy ming using the attacker rights gained by the initiation. 

Initiation: It has been discussed by the staff team and deemed a valid initiation. The reason for this is because the act of detainment is seen as a hostile action and is backed up by the request to remove weapons, rendering the person being detained unable to retaliate. @Ducky was firm in his demand each time, giving multiple chances for @EvanPVE to comply as the rest of his CDF members began to surround @EvanPVE with their guns out. If you were to be detained by a police force, pulling out your weapon would be seen as a threat to the life of the police officer and they would then be within their bounds to defend themselves. 

NVFL: @EvanPVEyou were outnumbered by heavily armed men and chose to retrieve your weapon in response. You understood the threat enough to arm yourself in a defensive manner. Your response was to try and take on an armed squad instead of to comply. 

The rules that apply:

  • 3.2 Your character must behave realistically and appropriately to the different situations you participate in, keeping the current world situation and context of post-apocalyptic world in mind. Do not act in a way that indicates no value for your characters life and survival. For example, attempting to kill people when heavily outnumbered, excessively talking back or insulting someone when taken hostage, or knowingly running into an area of active hostile engagement when not involved in the fight. Characters found guilty of breaking this rule will be permanently marked as dead.
  • 4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

  • 4.2 When your life is at risk or you are subjected to a hostile action by other players you are allowed to defend yourself. This is granted by two different "kill rights" that you can gain based on circumstances of the situation like which side caused the hostile situation and which side you are on.

    • If you are a defender - the one being initiated on or subjected to other hostile actions that threaten your life which you did not start or provoke - you are allowed to defend yourself by gaining  DEFENDER RIGHTS on the attackers. Defender rights allow you to kill attackers for 2 hours or until your character dies. Defender rights can be shared with anyone who you recently role played with as well as all your group members, if you are a part of an approved group.

    • If you are an attacker - the one who first did the initiation or started, caused or provoked the hostile situation - you are allowed to defend yourself by gaining  ATTACKER RIGHTS on the defenders. Attacker rights allow you to kill defenders for 1 hour or until your character dies. Attacker rights can be only be shared with your approved group members. If you are not a part of an approved group, attacker rights can not be shared and apply only for your character.

Verdict:

@Ducky | Invalid Initiation | NOT GUILTY | No punishment
@groovy ming | Invalid Kill (Roleplayed) | NOT GUILTY | No punishment
@EvanPVE | NVFL | GUILTY | 3 day ban, 10 warning points, character perm'd

Signed: @Derek Steel and @Xehara

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