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OnionRP

Theft Outside Of VoIP

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Posted (edited)

I have a question in regards to the latest report linked below and would also like the opinions of the community on it;

NOTE: I have no affiliation with this report or anyone associated with it, I just thought it was an interestint point for discussion.

I would be interested in @Roland's POV on this also.

Say for example, someone opens the gate to our yard in Stary (which isnt locked) and blatently takes a car from our 'drive way' whilst we are 50 metres away outside of voip, and drives off up the road.

Because we were not in voip or text range to initiate, does that mean that i do not have kill rights to protect what is ours, even though it was blatent theft?

The thief could argue in a report that "Oh i didnt know it beloned to anyone, it was just parked up in what i assumed was a car park".

Looking forward to the discussion!

Kiss kiss xxx

PS; I dont want this to be an attack about the verdict of the report! My aim is to find the definition of the line between KOS Invalid kill, and having kill rights in this situation. 

Edited by OnionRP

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Verdict is incorrect in my opinion.

Quote

4.2 When your life is at risk or you are subjected to a hostile action by other players you are allowed to defend yourself.

Stealing is a hostile action that was taken against the defendant in the report, whether or not OP knew he was committing a hostile action as he claims to have been unaware the vehicle belonged to anyone or that anyone was even present in town at the time is besides the point.

If you are shooting infected and I get caught with a stray bullet, you still shot me whether you are aware of this or not. I now have kill rights on you. Defendant had a hostile action taken against him and used his rights accordingly, a technicality such as being outside of VOIP range should not result in a 7 day ban also; as he claims to have attempted communication seen here:

Quote

Once I got to the road I said "hey" "stop" as I followed him but he just kept accelerating, at this point well over 25m away already.

As no video evidence was posted the Staff team handling the report cannot prove that contact was not made / attempted (which would make it a 5 day ban, not 7, no?) and what on earth is the 15 warning points about? Entire thing seems excessive and rushed.

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If you're outside of communication range from your stuff, how is someone supposed to know that the stuff belongs to you and is actively used. We have plenty of abandoned and unguarded bases around that people scavenge for loot without intentionally meaning to steal from.

If you don't want your things to be stolen, guard them. Granting kill rights over distance because someone took stuff you wasn't guarding will only increase miss-ID and baiting possibilities, so that's a no go for me.

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Posted (edited)

I've got a question then @Roland , what in the situation when im guarding a base from a distance, using sniper rifle while staying on some sort of a tower, place from I can see the entire base and it's surrounding, if someone will begin to break wall or combo lack can I shoot him right away or do I still have to initiate using for example megaphone?

Ps: Speaking of situation in base does not look like abandoned/not used.

Edited by Thrynn

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5 minutes ago, Roland said:

If you're outside of communication range from your stuff, how is someone supposed to know that the stuff belongs to you and is actively used. We have plenty of abandoned and unguarded bases around that people scavenge for loot without intentionally meaning to steal from.

If you don't want your things to be stolen, guard them. Granting kill rights over distance because someone took stuff you wasn't guarding will only increase miss-ID and baiting possibilities, so that's a no go for me.

In your opinion, does this include if someone breaks down walls and locks to get to the loot?

Obviously I would want to RP rather than KOS, but if they break into a locked area, steal loot/cars etc, then run/drive off where shotting is the only option, would that constitute a rule break? 

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20 minutes ago, Thrynn said:

I've got a question then @Roland , what in the situation when im guarding a base from a distance, using sniper rifle while staying on some sort of a tower, place from I can see the entire base and it's surrounding, if someone will begin to break wall or combo lack can I shoot him right away or do I still have to initiate using for example megaphone?

Ps: Speaking of situation in base does not look like abandoned/not used.

I literally wrote above that kill rights over distance are a no go 😄 You have to initiate. Base looks have nothing to do with it.

 

17 minutes ago, OnionRP said:

In your opinion, does this include if someone breaks down walls and locks to get to the loot?

Obviously I would want to RP rather than KOS, but if they break into a locked area, steal loot/cars etc, then run/drive off where shotting is the only option, would that constitute a rule break? 

Yes, it includes taking down a wall or locks, it's no different - they may be trying to gain access because the base may have been abandoned since there's nobody nearby.

Yes, it would be an invalid kill (on sight) if you shoot someone without an initiation.

To keep it fair play and avoid abuse of kill rights for baiting situations, the only stealing that is considered a hostile action and thus grants kill rights is the one that happens when the owner of the item is around and his presence is known to the thief. Here's a few examples that should make it pretty clear:

Grants kill rights:

  • A group is inside their base and casually RPing. Someone sneaks by them and jumps into a car and attempts to drive off
  • You drop an item on the ground, someone runs up to you, quickly picks up the item and runs away

Does NOT grant kill rights

  • A group is silently sitting hidden inside their base, waiting for either ambush or enemy to come by. Some random stumbles by and starts opening the gate or takes things from stashes
  • You drop an item on the ground, but suddenly have to go to the other side of town to help a friend. When you return the item is gone and you see a person in the distance running away with it

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@Roland A warning shots could count in as initiation when im out of text and voice range? let's say shooting a bullet or two at the object or ground next to the person that's breaking in.

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Just now, Thrynn said:

@Roland A warning shots could count in as initiation when im out of text and voice range? let's say shooting a bullet or two at the object or ground next to the person that's breaking in.

That's attempted invalid kill... 3 days ban. Warning shots are shot up in the air, not at people. And those do not give any rights or act as an initiation.

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Posted (edited)

@RolandDamn.. in diffrent RP community on diffrent game we've had rule of Combat Warning, that could work here, there was a working script, when you had right to attack someone, you was supposed to drop a combat warning, by writing down command /cw, then every player that was in the range of it was recieving a message about Combat Warning being issued. This could work here, let's say it could have a range of like 200m, you see someone break into your base, you get in the range of CW and then drop it if you got a kill reason, in that case that's breaking into your base, thanks to the Combat Warning player that's breaking in will know that apparently base was not abandoned and now he may pay for his mistake while at same time player protecting base won't loose element of surprise that he could loose when he'd have to approach that player and initiate himself, risking own death.

Edited by Thrynn

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4 minutes ago, Thrynn said:

-snip-

What's the point of having a CW if you can run up and initiate ? I'm genuinely curious, the suggestion doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

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Two Guys are breaking into the base while im hidden, so I run up to them through the open field to initiate, just to get gunned down? xD numbers game friend, we should be able to keep the element of surprise without exposing ourselves, approaching someone breaking into our base by myself, is like exposing my chin and asking them to hit me with a haymaker xD

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Posted (edited)

If you are outnumbered and run up to initiate because they are breaking into your base, that can pretty much be declared as NVFL.

A different idea, would be to approach them and inform them that the goods inside the camp/tent or car, is in fact yours, then go from there.

Edited by CalRP

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Posted (edited)

Ye, and then they will most likely follow with: Rise your fucking hands up or we'll make you into a backpack! now open the fucking lock or we'll kill your ass!    We can write what we want on forums, but it won't change situations taking place in game that majority of are exactly like this 😄

Edited by Thrynn

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Agree with @Thrynn the rules just contain so much gray area's which give the advantage to the one that steals. It should be more balanced because right now it's just unfair as basically all the approved groups just let one guy run up and initiate while all the others get instant kill rights. This shit is unbalanced and unfair and basically supports bandit rp over hero RP. 

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Idk its pretty simple when you look at it, guard your shit, inform people that its your shit and if they try to fuck with your shit, kill them. Rolle's always been pretty clear with his anti-rule armour stance, I don't know why this would be different.

As for that report, there were 2 different stories that nobody could prove, idk why the alleged offender was punished when it should've been found inconclusive. Wild stuff.

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@Roland A few years ago killing people you found stealing inside your base was fair game (aswell as placing landmines around to protect your belongings). I recall it working very well, nobody complaining about it and can't remember a single instance when a report was put up by someone who was killed while stealing.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Castiel said:

Verdict is incorrect in my opinion.

Stealing is a hostile action that was taken against the defendant in the report, whether or not OP knew he was committing a hostile action as he claims to have been unaware the vehicle belonged to anyone or that anyone was even present in town at the time is besides the point.

 

I've seen this argument raised a number of times, with the same quote of the rules.

 

The very next line under 4.2 detailing defenders rights says the below.:

 

Quote

If you are a defender - the one being initiated on or subjected to other hostile actions that threaten your life which you did not start or provoke - you are allowed to defend yourself by gaining  DEFENDER RIGHTS on the attackers. Defender rights allow you to kill attackers for 2 hours or until your character dies. Defender rights can be shared with anyone who you recently role played with as well as all your group members, if you are a part of an approved group.

 

One section of the rules states 'a hostile action' the other states 'ones that threaten your life.'

 

It has caused confusion before, such as when one staff team ruled that punching someone was NOT an action that gives kill rights, then another team of staff ruled that a single punch was in fact sufficient to mag-dump on someone.

 

So I'd love to see the rules clarified to determine whether defender rights are granted only when A) Initiated on/subjected to ANY hostile action or B) Initiated on/subject to a life threatening hostile action.

 

'Any' hostile action is a pretty awful open interpretation of the rules, and leaves a lot left to the judgement of whatever team is ruling at the time... which has led to directly conflicting verdicts over nearly identical situations.

 

Edited by Rover

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I think it's ok how it is... if we were to change it to what folks are suggesting,  frankly I can see certain folks setting up on a hill nearby as "overwatch" of their car whilst their group does stuff in town, and then gatting the first person who goes to get inside the unattended car. 

 

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36 minutes ago, The Traveler said:

I think it's ok how it is... if we were to change it to what folks are suggesting,  frankly I can see certain folks setting up on a hill nearby as "overwatch" of their car whilst their group does stuff in town, and then gatting the first person who goes to get inside the unattended car. 

 

Exactly, if it was the way people are suggesting, there would be an increase of reports for KOS because some would be trigger happy with everyone who simple walks up to their car. All of it simply cause "I suspected s/he was attempting to steal so I had valid reason to use my kill rights".

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These four threads (in spoiler) I have bookmarked, that go into more detail of Stealing, and kill rights of said action.

Spoiler

 

These threads in the spoiler go into Kill Rights in general.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Tbh if I have a base and some idiot jumps into my car while he knows I'm on the roof above him with my armband on it should be fair game to kill them same with if they try to break into my camp for that dank loot. 

Example of how some people act around bases.

 

Edited by Eagle

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I think people should have the right to kill other breaking in from a distance but not outright as @Roland said about abandoned buildings being a thing.

But also people should probably be able to put two and two together if a place is abandoned or not based on RP encounters or if the place is new or being maintained.

I think warning shots should be allowed if someone is incapable of approaching or wishes not to be hit with NVFL because a group of guys are breaking in and they're supposed to be overwatch.

I think something needs to change because it should favor the defenders. they spent the time to establish this place and possible RP hotspot so they should be able to maintain it.

I dont know if this is a technical rule break because of how initiations work (but i guess its not an initiation so *shrug*)
Maybe people could use radios and have them placed inside the building (dont know if that still works) and if they are on said overwatch they could speak into there radio and transmit the message saying "this place is occupied stop trying to break in, this is a warning", and if they dont listen... well... they know they're breaking in to an occupied place and deserve to be shot.

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I can see the point of baiting, it can easily be abused, if I could kill someone ON SIGHT for stealing my car, all I have to do is set my car up in a busy area and wait for someone to steal it, kill them and then take their loot. I think only in certain circumstances you should be able to KOS someone for stealing your car, for example if the thief 100% knows its your car and you know the thief knows.

 

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