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Hollows

Compensation for Unjust Bans

Compensation for Unjust Bans  

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22 minutes ago, The Traveler said:

I say if a verdict is cocked up, and the appeal is successful and is determined to be a staff cock up, the staff members that cocked up should have the original punishment the innocent party was given. 

End of the day apart from eventual removal from staff (which usually takes a grand while if it's due to consistent fuck ups over like a 3 month period) does nothing for the poor bugger who gets hit with a false 3- 7 day ban... 

I hope you're joking about staff members getting bans / warning points for making mistakes in verdicts. Appeals are there for admins / other GMs to correct mistakes, and hopefully give an indication for who's under performing. We don't need to be slamming people's records for a bad verdict, all staff members have done them from time to time.

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I think this looks like a very case by case kind of thing. If a verdict draws out for multiple days and is unjust, I can see there could be a bit of a meeting with admins to decide what is a suitable recompense. But I think making it a set rule to compensate for unjust bans as a whole could be a start of a very slippery slope. 

I think it should be an exception instead of a set rule. A lot of human errors happen and an apology should suffice in most cases in my opinion.

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42 minutes ago, Zanaan said:

That being said for all of those talking about taking punitive actions against staff, staff sometimes get things wrong. They are not infallible.

As a former GM that made my share of mistakes while learning, I understand that staff sometimes get things wrong, it happens. What I'm getting at is that it shouldn't keep happening and, if it does, clearly there is a problem. 

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1 minute ago, Bot Elmo said:

As a former GM that made my share of mistakes while learning, I understand that staff sometimes get things wrong, it happens. What I'm getting at is that it shouldn't keep happening and, if it does, clearly there is a problem. 

I'm just saying - there are some staff members that I don't think in their multi-month stints as staff have had a report done correctly from start to finish. That's a problem. Not one report that had logs pulled in reasonable time, the right logs being pulled, or the correct verdict being made once. There's "Oh they're learning" and then there's patterns that continue for months at a time. 

I think staff needs to regroup and refocus as a whole, figure out who needs to be in there and who doesn't, who needs promotions and demotions. I don't have any ill will towards anyone in staff on a personal level, but I do think that some people are just not where they need to be role wise, and some need a full rework. 

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I mean, 99% of the time staff don't stick people on temp bans for the sake of it, they are suspects and must be treated accordingly, just because you turn out innocent doesn't mean you are owed anything, that's not how it works anywhere really. Or if you end up sitting your ban whilst waiting for an appeal to go through, usually there is a reason. 

But yeah we all know Rolle ain't gonna give people anything for this. And staff who don't know how to write/sign verdicts are usually come down on in a fair manner, but that rarely happens consistently with GMs who are not new. I don't see the issue really.

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3 hours ago, YNW Jasper said:

I'm just saying - there are some staff members that I don't think in their multi-month stints as staff have had a report done correctly from start to finish. That's a problem. Not one report that had logs pulled in reasonable time, the right logs being pulled, or the correct verdict being made once. There's "Oh they're learning" and then there's patterns that continue for months at a time. 

I think staff needs to regroup and refocus as a whole, figure out who needs to be in there and who doesn't, who needs promotions and demotions. I don't have any ill will towards anyone in staff on a personal level, but I do think that some people are just not where they need to be role wise, and some need a full rework. 

If you and anyone else feels as you do above, I encourage all of you to apply for staff. 

I mean this with pure sincerity, some of the things that you all think should be simple (pulling logs for example), can be extremely complicated due to the game and how the logging system works. Reports and verdicts are always going to have some issues because, unless all sides have video evidence it will typically be a he said/she said issue. 

That being said, if you feel staff is currently struggling and you don't agree with the patterns, then I implore you to apply and try to come in and talk about it and change it. Community members who repetitively sit and talk about how things are wrong or performing poorly, but don't step up to try and fix that, are ultimately just adding to the issue. 

Staff will always be able to do more, be more consistent, and have an easier time with quick response times, with more staff members. I'm not saying that there aren't issues currently. Everyone has their own opinion on how staff should be, who should do what, who shouldn't be in staff, etc. etc. But what I am trying to say is, more applications and more unique viewpoints and opinions, will result in a change. 

If you want something to change, you need to be the first one to try and change it. That's how most things in life are.

(As far as compensation goes. Honestly I don't think it's a good idea. Compensation is a slippery slope, and punishing staff members for errors or verdicts that ultimately get appealed is like saying the Judge and Jury who voted Guilty on a murder case due to present evidence, should serve life sentences when new evidence is brought in that can exonerate the person who was previously guilty.)

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6 minutes ago, Phatal said:

If you and anyone else feels as you do above, I encourage all of you to apply for staff. 

 I mean this with pure sincerity, some of the things that you all think should be simple (pulling logs for example), can be extremely complicated due to the game and how the logging system works. Reports and verdicts are always going to have some issues because, unless all sides have video evidence it will typically be a he said/she said issue. 

That being said, if you feel staff is currently struggling and you don't agree with the patterns, then I implore you to apply and try to come in and talk about it and change it. Community members who repetitively sit and talk about how things are wrong or performing poorly, but don't step up to try and fix that, are ultimately just adding to the issue. 

Staff will always be able to do more, be more consistent, and have an easier time with quick response times, with more staff members. I'm not saying that there aren't issues currently. Everyone has their own opinion on how staff should be, who should do what, who shouldn't be in staff, etc. etc. But what I am trying to say is, more applications and more unique viewpoints and opinions, will result in a change. 

If you want something to change, you need to be the first one to try and change it. That's how most things in life are.

(As far as compensation goes. Honestly I don't think it's a good idea. Compensation is a slippery slope, and punishing staff members for errors or verdicts that ultimately get appealed is like saying the Judge and Jury who voted Guilty on a murder case due to present evidence, should serve life sentences when new evidence is brought in that can exonerate the person who was previously guilty.)

My app been sitting in there for over a year dawg. Feels bad man. ☹️

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25 minutes ago, Phatal said:

If you and anyone else feels as you do above, I encourage all of you to apply for staff. 

I mean this with pure sincerity, some of the things that you all think should be simple (pulling logs for example), can be extremely complicated due to the game and how the logging system works. Reports and verdicts are always going to have some issues because, unless all sides have video evidence it will typically be a he said/she said issue. 

That being said, if you feel staff is currently struggling and you don't agree with the patterns, then I implore you to apply and try to come in and talk about it and change it. Community members who repetitively sit and talk about how things are wrong or performing poorly, but don't step up to try and fix that, are ultimately just adding to the issue. 

Staff will always be able to do more, be more consistent, and have an easier time with quick response times, with more staff members. I'm not saying that there aren't issues currently. Everyone has their own opinion on how staff should be, who should do what, who shouldn't be in staff, etc. etc. But what I am trying to say is, more applications and more unique viewpoints and opinions, will result in a change. 

If you want something to change, you need to be the first one to try and change it. That's how most things in life are.

(As far as compensation goes. Honestly I don't think it's a good idea. Compensation is a slippery slope, and punishing staff members for errors or verdicts that ultimately get appealed is like saying the Judge and Jury who voted Guilty on a murder case due to present evidence, should serve life sentences when new evidence is brought in that can exonerate the person who was previously guilty.)

I would but was on final and cant even get in as a dev 

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34 minutes ago, Phatal said:

If you and anyone else feels as you do above, I encourage all of you to apply for staff. 

 

haha will do promptly 👍

 

like i said, don't fuck up the first time, and don't take 7 days to get an appeal done.

 

but like everything else in this community, who cares if you get a fully unjust ban? not staffs problem, deal with it. at least you got the points removed, right? 😄

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I feel the time taken too complete reports is down to how many people are getting whitelisted which in turn is increasing the amount of reports dramatically. I'm sure they try their hardest to try and get them done in a timely manner and although it does suck that some reports take a while i think some people forget that they are not paid and are doing it out of the goodness of their heart/for the community which you can do nothing but commend imo.

To combat the issue of time taken for reports to be given a verdict i think increasing the amount of staff to be a good idea. With the size of the community the staff numbers aren't very high at all. But i also understand how hard it is to get the right people for the jobs as you don't wanna recruit just anybody.

I voted no to this as i'd rather see more staff so reports get given verdicts more quickly than they currrently are and i'd rather see that change too giving people credits for their time waited.

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2 hours ago, Phatal said:

If you and anyone else feels as you do above, I encourage all of you to apply for staff. 

Dog. I can't and apparently never will be able to. Final warning makes us worse than convicted felons apparently. I honestly think I would give staff a try someday soon if I was able to but Rolle said it was a bad meme last time someone mad a thread asking, so the odds of that ain't too great. 

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If this were a subscription service, then maybe, but it's not.  If you donate that is voluntary and you already get your forum perks which go unaffected.

I think the only thing that needs to be looked at is if 1 or more staff members are repeatedly fucking up reports and have had enough "hand-holding time" for that not to continue to happen, but this can probably be dealt with in the staff feedback thread and internally as well.

Perhaps it could also be an issue that there is simply not enough staff at the moment and they are just overwhelmed. 

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9 hours ago, neom said:

I would but was on final and cant even get in as a dev 

imagine being capable of adding actual content to this game so we can have cool stuff like other servers but you can't because you were on warning but already paid the price. 

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9 hours ago, Phatal said:

If you and anyone else feels as you do above, I encourage all of you to apply for staff. 

A lot of good candidates have been on final and aren't allowed to.

 

9 hours ago, Phatal said:

That being said, if you feel staff is currently struggling and you don't agree with the patterns, then I implore you to apply and try to come in and talk about it and change it. Community members who repetitively sit and talk about how things are wrong or performing poorly, but don't step up to try and fix that, are ultimately just adding to the issue. 

Isn't this what feedback threads are for? For us to "step up" and bring those issues to light? And many times, I've seen where the response to feedback has been a simple "I'll take it into consideration" and nothing changes. What's the difference between me saying it now and me getting staff and saying it?

 

9 hours ago, Phatal said:

Staff will always be able to do more, be more consistent, and have an easier time with quick response times, with more staff members. I'm not saying that there aren't issues currently. Everyone has their own opinion on how staff should be, who should do what, who shouldn't be in staff, etc. etc. But what I am trying to say is, more applications and more unique viewpoints and opinions, will result in a change. 

To an extent, you're correct. More staff members CAN equate to quicker response times because more availability, but to assume more staff members equates to more consistency isn't a great idea. I personally have seen within the past few months that there were plenty of staff members, but only a few were really carrying the load (Phoenix & Randy, off the top of my head). Even then, there was visible disagreement between staff on what constituted as rule breaks and what didn't. 

I'm not going to sit here and take jabs at everyone in Staff who's messed up or made a mistake. But there are staff members who CONSTANTLY make wrong decisions and do bullshit things that, to the community, is absurd. Telling us to get into staff to fix things is ridiculous when we have feedback threads and no grantee we'll even get in staff.

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Nah.  I don't agree with this at all.  Sucks to get reported and serve a ban when you didn't do anything wrong, but compensation?  It's a gaming community, you're not doing hard time at San Quentin, you have to go play Minecraft or hang out with the free non-shackled community members in discord.  

I get it, the innocent shouldn't be punished but the system isn't going to always be perfect.  Appeals are there for a reason and I've seen some reasonable verdicts lately.

If it happens to you, hopefully the freedom to get back in game and move on should be enough for most.

 

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Posted (edited)

There’s a hard pill to swallow in this community and that is that shit happens.

Just because something happened to you that was unfair, does not always mean you’re entitled to x y and z.

It’s been said multiple times throughout the thread, but sometimes people forget that staff are people too, not machines.

As a chill dude there’s no reason for me to be taking sides on the matter but I don’t think people need to expect something in return when a mistake is made. 

Edited by Luke

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No entitlement.

 

The only compensation should be the removal of staff that grievously screw up something. As in willfully make the mistake, not accidentally.

 

As with most things, interpretation is open to review. An accepted appeal doesn't mean the original staff member err'd so grievously they should be punished, but in cases where there is no excuse or reason for a staff member to utterly screw up, their participation in staff should be reviewed.

 

And I am sure this already happens behind the scenes, and there is a system in place. As with almost everything, it should be case by case. Compensation shouldn't be awarded to people that sat out unjust punishments, its just a thing you need to deal with when you play on a gaming community like this.

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Maybe negative points?  e.g. wrongly banned for RDM. Appeal accepted after 3 weeks of debate between staff.  User now had -3 points after successful appeal.

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3 minutes ago, Crim said:

Maybe negative points?  e.g. wrongly banned for RDM. Appeal accepted after 3 weeks of debate between staff.  User now had -3 points after successful appeal.

Free UP? Litty

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Crim said:

Maybe negative points?  e.g. wrongly banned for RDM. Appeal accepted after 3 weeks of debate between staff.  User now had -3 points after successful appeal.

Make it so they stay forever so you can get -100 warning points making you safe from any kind of ban.

But on a real though i don't see this working at all. 

Being falsely banned is just something that's gonna have to stay, the only way to make it better is to make other staff members reply to the appeal fast enough. Appeals should be prioritized over reports so they are done faster 

21 hours ago, Phatal said:

If you and anyone else feels as you do above, I encourage all of you to apply for staff. 

I mean this with pure sincerity, some of the things that you all think should be simple (pulling logs for example), can be extremely complicated due to the game and how the logging system works. Reports and verdicts are always going to have some issues because, unless all sides have video evidence it will typically be a he said/she said issue. 

That being said, if you feel staff is currently struggling and you don't agree with the patterns, then I implore you to apply and try to come in and talk about it and change it. Community members who repetitively sit and talk about how things are wrong or performing poorly, but don't step up to try and fix that, are ultimately just adding to the issue. 

Staff will always be able to do more, be more consistent, and have an easier time with quick response times, with more staff members. I'm not saying that there aren't issues currently. Everyone has their own opinion on how staff should be, who should do what, who shouldn't be in staff, etc. etc. But what I am trying to say is, more applications and more unique viewpoints and opinions, will result in a change. 

It's hard for us final warning/amnesty people since we can't apply for staff, so this doesn't really apply to us. All I, @YNW Jasper and all other people who came back with amnesty can do is share our opinion on the matter but we can't really act on our opinions since we're blocked from doing so. But hey if anyone is able to apply for staff then i encourage them to do so. 

Edited by NozzyRP

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