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ZorullRP

Rule 4 bans for OOC Hate

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Posted (edited)

Gotta agree with @Zorull on the points made. When certain people are in the same situations, and different outcomes happen regarding their bans. It confuses me. I think to have a discussion about this would really help and give some clarity to the whole situation

Edited by ThrashRP

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Disclaimer: The opinions expressed below are my own personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions of staff.

I come from MMO's and the like, so this is the first time I've encountered rules to protect against flaming. Keeping that in mind I am unaware of the history behind why it was created, how it's been implemented, and how it has evolved into what we have today. That said, I have also been an active roleplayer for 10+ years (yes I'm old), and I know how toxic roleplay communities can get. PvP is no different. Combining the two is no doubt going to cause emotions and egos to come to a head. There is a person behind the screen and we can easily forget that when we are engaged in hostile RP, more so in this setting given that this format is Voice RP instead of straight text, as I am used to. 

So as a new player, the rule to me seems to be the best way to cull the potential for toxicity and allow unique and productive roleplay to prosper, the downside is that we are all still human. Just because we aren't actively speaking our mind, doesn't mean OOC opinions aren't formed. Flame is going to happen, people are just more cautious about getting caught because of the severity of what happens when you do.

There's a long seeded dislike between higher-profile members, the community leaders you mentioned before. They've been here a long time, they've held in the flame due to the rule and the issues have been allowed to fester and inflame instead of letting out the frustration in small doses, or even taking time to calm down and talk things out. Aerye's and Cipher's case from the base information you've provided seems as though the issue could be squashed and a second chance given. It's also a clear example of needing to calm down before acting on a situation. There's remorse from the knee-jerk reaction. 

I can't speak on other cases without them being presented here, but the question of why things are so different is because each case is judged on its individual merit. There's no real way to handle the situation aside from doing it on a case by case basis. That's why you're going to see one person getting permed for something another was given forgiveness on. There are likely other underlying factors in the decision aside from what everyone sees. What those are I can't say, I can only speculate. 

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Yea cipher should get unbanned.

Being a group leader who actually does anything important in game makes people get real upset OOC, leading them to do anything possible to get you banned. 

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Yeah, the rules in this community can be pretty harsh sometimes given the context. I just want everyone to get along and have fun playing the game. 🤧

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Posted (edited)

Yeah its really silly, he should be unbanned.

Also in a recent report some guy got killed (new to the community I think) and raged on stream saying "fuck fuck fuck, fuckity blah, see you on forums fag" or something along those lines, and he got perm'd lol, pretty fucking stupid why not a ban strike or something less? just really confusing and theres literally no standard for any of these bans, "thats offensive and not the right attitude,  you're permanently banned" lol what.

Edited by Jerry

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While I don't know the entirety of this specific instance, I believe the separation of IC and OOC statements need to be just that. As long as something said  OOC doesn't involve a true and immediate form of harassment, harm or the like... leave it alone. We are each entitled to our own opinions and thoughts not to mention being able to vent freely. Punishing someone for something said OOC that doesn't amount to a squat of beans ICly or wouldn't be construed as some sort of act of violence IRl is down right silly. 

Having said all that, IF you are acting in some sort of official capacity and commit the same act that goes down a whole other route. 

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Its not a system that is supposed to be 'fair'. It is supposed to allow case by case decisions. The decision to allow community members back into the community lies in the hands of two people, and any 'fairness' comes from them, and no one else. They had a good thread not that long ago explaining the decision making process, where both Jim and Roland posted how they approach it, but I can't find it.

 

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26 minutes ago, Roland said:

The difference between the two situations is context. The line is very thin between the two situations, but it is there.

Squillum called someone names right after getting killed in game. He got frustrated because he's bad at PvP and got outplayed. His punishment was reduced to aggravated flaming.

Cipher on the other hand, went out of his way to flame someone out of the game on some private Discord, without prior "provocation" of sorts. That was judged as OOC hate, since it happened without any immediate provocation that stemmed from IC stuff.

It's kind of similar to how voluntary manslaughter and murder are distinguished IRL. According to wikipedia, voluntary manslaughter is the same as murder, with the difference that voluntary manslaughter is when offender acts "during the heat of passion, under circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed to the point that they can't reasonably control their emotions". And that provocation causes the punishment for the murder to be "negated" or mitigated.

So I thought that getting killed in game and during the heat of a moment spilling some bad words right after losing (PewDiePie N-word moment anyone?) should probably get a lesser punishment on the basis that it can sometimes be done unintentionally and without ill will behind it. So that's why I decided to reduce punishment for Squillum for his actions, while keeping Ciphers ban in place.

I'm somewhat informed on the grounds of what caused such an outburst on Ciphers part and I see it similar to being killed in game.

The two had just finished a pretty heated debate on the forums, with Cipher taking the others posts badly and overall insulting to the types of RP he was trying to better in the community. It felt not only like a personal attack ( Calling all current hostile RP shit )  but an attack on everything Cipher had been working to build up with the House and the betterment of hostile RP over the last months. Yes Cipher said some heated stuff, but at the same time it was on a non-DayZRP affiliated discord. He vented and rightfully so, would it have been better to hold onto all that anger and put it out in a worse way? we cannot all be zen masters or just not give a fuck when someone insults ( Either intentionally or unintentionally ) and venting helps keep explosions like this from happening. Ciphers postings were heated and in the moment. 

Currently I and literally everyone else has to be worried about what is said or typed in PRIVATE DISCORDS because someone could easily screenshot and send to staff for an easy ban or perm. Its really fucking ridiculous that the staff from a RP community can literally thought police us on other discords. 

If stuff was not said in DayZRP Discord/forums/games you should have no right to do anything.

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18 minutes ago, Hex said:

The two had just finished a pretty heated debate on the forums, with Cipher taking the others posts badly and overall insulting to the types of RP he was trying to better in the community. It felt not only like a personal attack ( Calling all current hostile RP shit )  but an attack on everything Cipher had been working to build up with the House and the betterment of hostile RP over the last months.

I don't see it that way personally, a thread on the forum is not enough of a reason to me. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

18 minutes ago, Hex said:

Its really fucking ridiculous that the staff from a RP community can literally thought police us on other discords. 

I agree on that, I have no business or interest in policing other peoples opinions or private conversations on the Internet. However...

 

18 minutes ago, Hex said:

If stuff was not said in DayZRP Discord/forums/games you should have no right to do anything.

I certainly don't intend to welcome people with open arms and host their stuff on my website and let them play on my servers like nothing happened when they are shit talking me, my staff or my members behind my back on some private Discord and I seemingly can't do anything about it. I don't like that idea. So that's why we do the things we do.

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6 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I certainly don't intend to welcome people with open arms and host their stuff on my website and let them play on my servers like nothing happened when they are shit talking me, my staff or my members behind my back on some private Discord and I seemingly can't do anything about it. I don't like that idea. So that's why we do the things we do.

Then I hope you judge all others fairly, including your own staff.

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

Squillum called someone names right after getting killed in game. He got frustrated because he's bad at PvP and got outplayed.

This made me laugh, Rolle. Thanks: )

 

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Idk man its kinda weird. He should be unbanned

What i heard chipers appeal havent even got a answer and its been a while

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Posted (edited)

@Roland I never knew Cipher to be an openly hateful person when I was a member of the house. Quite the opposite actually. In most cases he was one of the most laid back people Id ever met. You do mention Rolle that in Ciphers case it was OOC hate on a private discord, which I agree, that did happen or at least that's what I heard. If Squillium is unbanned because he was frustrated about something that happened in game? Cipher would only act out or say something unless it was something accumulated over an extended period of time. My meaning is basically, though it may of been ooc, it was probably an out burst of frustration over a long period of ingame and ooc drama between said people.

I don't know exactly what happened, but from what I heard as well, is that he was basically being taunted which is why he finally said what he said in the open basically. He normally wasn't a person who spoke his mind, or even said things against anyone. Any time he spoke or wrote on the forums / discord he always did his best to keep things non biased and non flame baiting. Almost like trying to be constructive criticism. Not saying he didn't deserve what he got, but if others were given leniency... I know he isn't perfect but I feel if anyone deserves a second chance, it would be CIpher. And I can almost guarantee you he would never make the same mistake again.

Edited by Zipcouda

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Roland said:

I certainly don't intend to welcome people with open arms and host their stuff on my website and let them play on my servers like nothing happened when they are shit talking me, my staff or my members behind my back on some private Discord and I seemingly can't do anything about it. I don't like that idea. So that's why we do the things we do.

It happens and there isnt anything you can do about...the only way you'll ever know is because of snakes.

No other staff team I know of would ever take action against things said against them in private, its pretty fucking ridiculous and very immature imo. If someone denounces you guys publically then by all means ban them, but if its in private and you guys hear about it just ignore it and move on (just like we used to).

Where did the Rolle I know who would just say "thats ur opinion" go?? 

Edited by Jerry

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Posted (edited)

Squilly got outplayed and betrayed IG.  And he and two of our guys got gunned down right in front of me because of it.  So, yeah, Squilly’s words were a direct response to what had just happened IG.  There was no OOC hate involved.  It was just a knee jerk reaction.  And Squilly is being punished for his poor word choice.

Speaking of bans, two of our guys guys got R4’d after Squilly.  I admit I didn’t see the offending Discord chat but, I was told it started when the first asked why it was okay for people to call him the “N” word in game, but, not okay for Squilly to call someone the “F” word in a private Discord out of game.  The second guy got himself R4’d because of what happened to the first.  

Yes, he spelled out both words in chat, however, as part of the question only.  It was not directed at anyone.  As a new player, how was he supposed to know it was a ban-able offense?  He wanted to better understand what had just happened to Squilly.  And why there was a difference between what could be said in game and out of game.  I think it was a fair question for any new player to pose.

Of course, there could be more to this story, but, I am very curious regardless.

I know nothing about what happened to Cipher, but, I hope his appeal is being reviewed with the same care as Squilly’s was.  Maybe it’s more complicated and requires more time.

 

Edited by Mia

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2 minutes ago, Jerry said:

It happens and there isnt anything you can do about...the only way you'll ever know is because of snakes.

No other staff team I know of would ever take action against things said against them in private, its pretty fucking ridiculous and very immature imo. If someone denounces you guys publically then by all means ban them, but if its in private and you guys hear about it just ignore it and move on (just like we used to).

Fully agree noone will ever look at things in the same way. Its a shame that these things happen now compared to he community feeling in the past where you said what you thought or just shrugged it off.

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Posted (edited)

It would be interesting if staff, instead of punishing those who speak out... asked those who speak out what they want to be fixed, and what can be done about it. Talk it out and try to resolve the issue. I understand in my job I can't please everyone. But I put myself in their shoes, and I do my best to find a resolution I would accept. What you are doing by banning people who speak up about what they dislike, is basically just trying to hide from a problem. You can't keep it hidden forever, and good people are getting thrown away because of it.

I know its easier to just push people who disagree away, but it could make the community better if people found out what the problem was and tried to improve. That is what constructive criticism is for... as well as staff feedback page. But still, if you speak against staff in any way, you are simply removed.

Edited by Zipcouda

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2 hours ago, Mia said:

-snip-

Not sure what you quoted me for. Me and squill are friends and I'm also in the group that attacked you guys. I just appreciated Rolle's banter 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, YNW Law said:

Not sure what you quoted me for. Me and squill are friends and I'm also in the group that attacked you guys. I just appreciated Rolle's banter 

Sorry, small iPhone.  I didn’t meant to quote you.  Will fix immediately.

Edited by Mia

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Cipher is a good guy and had a huge impact on the server. Sad to not see him here, I think at times people show hatred towards people but don't necessarily hate them, and I think that may be the case on here at times. I don''t know, #bringbackcipher.

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I agree tho, to me Cipher was the RP guru of DayZRP, he knew how to balance RP and a little bit of PvP through his game-plays. #Bringbackcipher.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Zorull said:

Also, I think that seeing the amount of what I would call “high-profile” community members (group leaders, RP “figureheads”) being banned with the same OOC Hate violations, makes me wonder if these people are bigger targets for blackmail and harassment via sending in “evidence” for OOC hate that would never see the light of day. If all it takes is a Discord chat or some heated words on stream to get someone banned, doesn’t that negatively affect the overall vibe of the community, knowing you always have to walk on eggshells?

Unfortunately I've had to face the hard truth with this throughout my years here; this discussion doesn't just reflect cipher either, but really how its always been.

I used to know about a dozen banned players (for obvious reasons won't be named) who have gone the same way and it really bums me out, because some of these guys I had known for almost my whole time here. I've even had genuine screaming matches and protests with admins because of how a ban I thought was a little extreme might've gone down. At the end of the day, if a rule is broken regarding this community and all of its members, regardless of where it is whether its a private discord or teamspeak, if its reported, it will be judged by staff authority; regardless of whether he is well liked or not. Just try to be friendly OOC. don't take anything IC, firefights, betrayals or anything OOC and you'll be fine.

Edited by Monday

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