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Mugin

Balance Bases and Update Rules

Balance Bases and Update Rules?  

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Posted (edited)

So I'm just going to jump right out of the gate with this thread by saying there is a major bias towards base raiding and defending. I get that. I am biased too, so I would prefer we all try to look at this objectively, as I will be doing my best to do so as well.

My main point being: Bases aren't balanced

The ratio of time put in, to time needed to raid them is disproportional. Putting in hours/days/months to construct a base, versus the two minutes it takes to dismantle the lower panel is just one example of such.

     (I forgot there is still the issue of no difference between metal and wooden fences in terms of time it takes to dismantle)

Offline raids. Given this is a RP community you can argue this practice may be unrealistic. I don't think it's a concrete reason, however offline raiding does serve as another example as to why base building is not balanced.

The current rules benefit the attacker more so than the defenders
For example. If someone is breaking your walls, you're not allowed to shoot them. It's an RP community, that makes sense, because it's bad RP practices to not talk with them first. At the same time that's very hard to argue for other than that. "Realistically" breaking in or griefing should allow defenders rights. Given it's a hostile action to be trespassing to breaking into someones marked territory. ie a walled compound.

These are the main reasons that skew the balance of bases towards the attackers.

I bring this up only because I don't feel this topic has been seriously discussed. I'd like to ensure it does, and maybe get the ball rolling for improvements. It's our job as a community to fix these issues, and try to make this aspect of the game, fun, fair, and balanced for all parties.

Edited by Mugin
(metal and wooden fence info added)

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I thought we already had a discussion about this with several ideas.

Destruction timers have been increased to several minutes in the last patch

Offline raids are being discussed by implementing scheduled "raid hours", during which base buildings can be destroyed, outside of these hours they cannot.

People get into abandoned bases to search for loot, that is normal. We don't have any territory claim system that would tell players they are entering a group controlled area. Also not every attempt to get into a base is griefing. Allowing to shoot on sight random people who are just looking for supplies would be unfair.

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15 minutes ago, Roland said:

 People can be  get into abandoned bases to search for loot, that is normal. We don't have any territory claim system that would tell players they are entering a group controlled area. Also not every attempt to get into a base is griefing. Allowing to shoot on sight random people who are just looking for supplies would be unfair.

It’s my base and home tho and they are breaking in and stealing my shit, it should be treated the same way as an initiation or robbery. I don’t want to RP with someone robbing me if I don’t have to. What would I do if I initiated and they comply? I can’t execute them. All I can do is beat them up and let them loose just so they can go run to their friends or them come back with a sniper and dome me. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Roland said:

I thought we already had a discussion about this with several ideas. (1)

Destruction timers have been increased to several minutes in the last patch (2)

Offline raids are being discussed by implementing scheduled "raid hours", during which base buildings can be destroyed, outside of these hours they cannot. (3)

People get into abandoned bases to search for loot, that is normal. We don't have any territory claim system that would tell players they are entering a group controlled area. Also not every attempt to get into a base is griefing. Allowing to shoot on sight random people who are just looking for supplies would be unfair. (4)

(1) It has been discussed, but I don't feel there is enough being done about it. As it is still unbalanced, favoring the attackers, which doesn't make sense, given the whole point of a base is to benefit the owner. Given they spent time to do so.

(2) Destruction time is still 2 minutes for one panel to my knowledge, if that increases great. That being said, I don't feel the concept of a click and hold makes sense when taking planks off of fences. You wouldn't put the planks back on when you accidentally or purposefully let go of the mouse button. Granted it's a game feature.

(3) Who is discussing these implementation? Perhaps a little more transparency would be good for the community to know more updates on these ideas?

(4) Abandoned sure, but when people meta and know play times that's when its bothersome. I never said every attempt at getting into a base was griefing, I did however say...

41 minutes ago, Mugin said:

breaking in or griefing should allow defenders rights

...just as a suggestion, because if someones breaks into your home, that intent is hostile.

People looking for supplies is different than breaking and entering. So I don't see why you bring that up.

Edited by Mugin
grammar

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Changes are being made, with the raid timers we will likely be able to make things better for defenders and ultimately that is all we need.

 

Rules pertaining stealing from bases = initiation is a slippery slope leading to me placing a tent in the road claiming it as my base, and anyone who enters it gets yeeted.

Let's not change the rules, let's just try these changes and see if it is okay like this.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Changes are being made, with the raid timers we will likely be able to make things better for defenders and ultimately that is all we need.

 

Rules pertaining stealing from bases = initiation is a slippery slope leading to me placing a tent in the road claiming it as my base, and anyone who enters it gets yeeted.

Let's not change the rules, let's just try these changes and see if it is okay like this.

Well if staff use common sense then it would be easy to tell who is abusing the rules and who isn’t. + it’s kind of obvious what a bAsE is. It’s got walls around it. You don’t “wander” into a base looking for “supplies” you break in to steal. 

Edited by Zero

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11 minutes ago, Zero said:

Well if staff use common sense then it would be easy to tell who is abusing the rules and who isn’t. + it’s kind of obvious what a bAsE is. It’s got walls around it. You don’t “wander” into a base looking for “supplies” you break in to steal. 

Yeah eeh.. We already got some of those "Hey this should be obvious" situations that are a hit or miss because of grey areas.

No thank you

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1 minute ago, Ducky said:

Yeah eeh.. We already got some of those "Hey this should be obvious" situations that are a hit or miss because of grey areas.

No thank you

I am saying if someone breaks and enters into a base, then that should permit defenders rights. It's a suggestion, but obviously the definition of "base" should be defined in the rules as something you've created, not something as simple as an unoccupied tent, in the middle of the road, that's closed.

As to break something, it needs to have been created. 

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That would be pretty alright, im trying to RP as a survivalist living in the woods, very simple but also can be very adventurous, its hard to do this mainly because every time I put a tiny base up, its destroyed a couple hours later.

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I agree that there needs to be some kind of balance with the actual bases, people spend a shit load of time building them and they can create RP hubs.  People who build bases must feel so dejected and just unmotivated to play when their shit is constantly getting messed with for no real reason, especially if people are intentionally waiting for low pop hours before doing anything.

I would just like to add though, that any balance/protection needs to be balanced in a way that doesn't encourage or protect gear whores hoarders.  If I go into your base and see you have 12 M4's, 20 SKS's, 5 FAL's and 10 AKM's then chances are you don't want that protection for your walls, you want it for your precious's (I know @Mugin and his group are not like this and am not including them in this statement, but some people are like this and this needs to be acknowledged).  Then we need to look at those who gear hoard that use low pop hours to build up their stock of guns at their base, thereby reducing any real risk of being robbed on the way between bases and military loot spawn locations.  

I will be the first to admit though, I don't know how we can implement a "good balance" in terms of camp protection right now.

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When the RP mod base items are fixed should be better unfortunately think there were some bugs but once that’s sorted we’ll have loads of cool things like ladders

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Honestly I'd just be happy with gaining defender rights on people actively breaking into and/or stealing from your base.  I know the focus should always be roleplay, but if we're actually playing roles of survivors in a zombie apocalypse, I'm not going to want to talk to the guy(s) trying to destroy my safe haven and steal my shit.  It just doesn't make sense to be like, "Hey you put your hands up and stop breaking into my base!  Okay, lesson learned, now get out of here!" 

On 4/20/2019 at 3:58 PM, Zero said:

I can’t execute them. All I can do is beat them up and let them loose just so they can go run to their friends or them come back with a sniper and dome me. 

This 100%, if you're forced to initiate on someone robbing your base, and it's not like your character to torture them, you're literally just setting them off with 2 free hours of kill rights and knowledge of your base's location.

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Posted (edited)

I was always under the assumption if you see people breaking into your base and it was obvious it was yours, you could tell them to stop and if they keep trying to get in you could kill them.

But maybe that was back in the old times

Edited by Dan

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dan said:

I was always under the assumption if you see people breaking into your base and it was obvious it was yours, you could tell them to stop and if they keep trying to get in you could kill them.

But maybe that was back in the old times

I shouldn't have to do that. That's like saying "Oh no. Please sir stop trying to rob me."

Edited by Zero

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There is just a wide variety of easily obtainable tools that all you have to do is go up to the base with it and hold left click for a few minutes until you are in, despite hours and maybe days of someone building a base.

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10 hours ago, Zero said:

I shouldn't have to do that. That's like saying "Oh no. Please sir stop trying to rob me."

Well it was so that the people breaking in were made aware that the owner of it was present.

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Isn't this the seventh post about this 😛
Thought it would be a suggestion by now and not a constant discussion 

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3 hours ago, Reaper said:

Isn't this the seventh post about this 😛
Thought it would be a suggestion by now and not a constant discussion 

There are a few things in the work, but despite the few ig implementations being made to attempt to alleviate the issues, the rules still give advantage to the attackers. Which just doesn't make sense as many have been saying. Along with the inability to prevent ghosting, and griefing when we're offline or "sleeping", bases are just not viable and need to be balanced to allow the defenders to have an advantage, if not just outright balance them for both parties.

That being said it's realistic to say the person who put hours, days, and months into a base should have the upper hand. This just isn't the case with the base building now. 

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I agree that if someone is breaking into a base that person or group that owns the place should gain some type of defensive rights. 

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Yeah +1 to this.

As of now we don't really see the appeal of base building when we have to deal with people stealing our stuff having the upper hand.

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I spotted people breaking into my base on one occasion, tried talking to them; they ignored me, then finally just shot me without hardly a word (the matter was resolved by reports); I agree that someone breaking into your home should be some sort of initiation on the people inside.

It would also address the frequent baiting scenario of one group tearing down a wall or boosting into a base to force the defenders to initiate so as to gain the more advantageous rules.

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