Jump to content
Server time (UTC): 2019-06-20, 14:16
Sign in to follow this  
Brad

False Report?

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

What I've learned from this report:

- If someone punches me, I'll just gun him down immediately

- I will also report him for NVFL and get his character PKed.

Sounds bout right.

I understand the sarcasm, but don't do that, either of those things.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't want to put staff on blast.  It's not an easy job, but looks like there are two big topics of discussion here.

What is classified as NFVL in a one on one encounter such as the one in the report (it seems there are varying opinions on what the punch should mean)

And when a false report should be declared during a report like this.  

Likely dealing with appeals on this currently, but it would be nice to hear some sort of discussion on it soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, MR Pussywhipped said:

I don't want to put staff on blast.  It's not an easy job, but looks like there are two big topics of discussion here.

What is classified as NFVL in a one on one encounter such as the one in the report (it seems there are varying opinions on what the punch should mean)

And when a false report should be declared during a report like this.  

Likely dealing with appeals on this currently, but it would be nice to hear some sort of discussion on it soon.

I wrote some clear-cut unofficial examples of kill rights regarding ruleplay, in this thread here.

Spoiler

 

Here's the quote so you don't have to load another webpage.

Spoiler

 

On 1/26/2019 at 1:20 PM, CamoRP said:
  • 4.1 All hostile actions must be clear and unambiguous to all involved players.

First rule of hostilities, helps clarify what the "beyond reasonable doubt" means.

  • 4.4 You shouldn't use defense or kill rights in situations where it doesn't make in-character sense as it can be seen as rule play. In other words, obtaining defense/kill rights alone does not give you explicit permission to use them any time you want and in all situations. Think about if using them to kill another character is viable in the current situation considering role play and In Character information. Defense/kill rights gained from any rule breaks (including but not limited to baiting, invalid initiation) are considered invalid and their use will be punished in the same way as if they were not obtained at all.

Fourth rule of hostilities will however shed some light when it comes to using those rights, correctly.

---

Here's examples that may help clear those areas of the rules.

  • Red - Rule Infraction
  • Green - Correct Usage
  • Yellow - "Gray Area" (depends on circumstances)

 

  1. Two players agree to a brawl on the street. Player A gets knocked out or loses the fight. Player B awaits for them to wake up. Player A pulls out their gun and shoots Player B. There was a threat of harm, but it was a friendly brawl, and both parties agreed to the risks. The hostilities rules don't always imply in every circumstance. It would make no roleplay sense, and may even implicate Player B to a rule infraction of ruleplay to kill Player A.
  2.  Two players are walking on the street. Player A insults Player B by saying, "Yo bro, you ugly!" Player B responds by punching Player A repeatedly, while telling him to "Shut the f*** up!" , Player A has gained defensive rights, they pull out their gun and shoot Player B. (Now, it may be a rule infraction for Player B to respond by using "invalid kill rights" to attack Player A for insulting him. A report for this, would be up to the staff team's discretion.)
  3.  Two players are walking on the street. Player B killed Player A's friend during a firefight, five hours ago. Player A confronts Player B by saying "Hey, I know, you, you killed my friend earlier!" Player B responds "I don't know you man, leave me alone." Then keeps on walking. Player A then shouts, without a formal "initiation" or without visual threats (such as pointing their gun at Player B), "If I see you in town again, <quote>." Player B snickers, turns around and shoots Player A in the back.

Depends on the circumstances on what Player A says...

  • "If I see you in town again, I will kill you." - Player B now has gained defensive rights. Initiations do not need to occur in order to gain defensive rights. Only when hostile actions are clear, and unambiguous to all involved players. Initiations are simply a formality.
  • "If I see you in town again, then we'll have a problem." - Player B doesn't have defensive rights. No threat was given.
  • "If I see you in town again, there will be repercussions for your continued stay here." - Player B doesn't have defensive rights. Player A threatened Player B, but there was no threat of harm.

Perhaps that will help clarify what may be considered NVFL, and what is considered Ruleplay. Let me know what you think if you're still curious.

Edited by CamoRP

Share this post


Link to post

While i admit i am a friend of Dusty's, the verdict is still disgusting. I would understand if the staff decided not to charge the accused but hitting him with false report is one of the most ridiculous things ive seen. I dont know how so many GM's could sign off on that. Twice a man who has come back from amnesty has been wrongly punished when he is providing great RP. Its a shame

Share this post


Link to post

So, if I have read everything correctly so far a punch was thrown and connected with the victim where as the victim immediately gunned the person down after. I don't know the person who threw the punch nor the person who opened fire. 

We don't know all the circumstances behind the indecent so it's possible we are missing some important information. However, at first glance this seems highly irregular. 

I've been in many communities and a lot of those are RP related. So i'm not new to the normal rules but the outcome so far has me wondering. 

Why did the "gunman" as we will call them for now, think he was justified in killing the attacker? Were they that fearful of their life that this excessive action had to be taken? Probably not unless they were outmanned, outgunned or cornered. Which it just seems at this point the "gunman" had their pride hurt and needed retribution for and in doing so tossed RP out the window. To me the gunman was in the wrong, yes he got hurt and or took damage but it was not life threatening and did not need a heightened response. He could have...RP'd it out. 

Now, moving on to the false report. Like I've said above unless we are missing some critical info this was a bad judgment call. The "gunman" was in the wrong for exceeding the level needed to protect themselves, moreover they chose pvp over rp and imo if you want that... go elsewhere. The report is justified if filed on the original attackers behalf. 

If you need an example, a police officer cannot fire upon an assailant if they only punched them once.... if they did they would suspended and under investigation if not put in cuffs. 

I sincerely hope things are rectified or more hard evidence is brought forth, because things like this do not bode well for new incoming players or the longevity of the server. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

I've just returned to the community and from my understanding multiple of the current staff team have their own understanding of the rules, and it seems like they're not on the same page. This was made clear for me a couple of days ago when I had a chat with multiple GameMasters and other staff members. I had also put up a report recently where the GM's that were handling the report forgot multiple key factors in the report, and admitted to me later that there were better ways they could have done the report.

All of this and now this report with Dusty. If I remember correctly I have read previous situations where the same thing has happened and all of them has resulted in the same way, except this report. I also asked about this when I was an Game Master and I got the answer that killing someone that punched you once is ruleplay. In my honest opinion it seems like the meaning of the rules changes depending on who that is doing the report. That's a shame, because it makes it hard for the rest of the community to get the correct understanding of the rule and the only way to learn is the hard way.

Edited by Strawberry

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

The GM+ Team is setting a weird precedent on standards and interpretations of how the Rules work.

They're setting an idea that it is a green light to gas literally anyone doing hostile RP with me. If I get punched, or threatened IG I will be 100% shooting the person, because this interpretation of the rules allows it. I'm "defending my life." I can now draw a line in the sand to when I believe it is appropriate to kill someone because I am in fear of my life. Wherever the line in the sand is, is up to how I am feeling that day.

DayZRP, where RP is valued over PvP, unless we don't like you... Then we'll throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks.

Should've just R4'ed him instead of trying to reach out wide and hope a ban sticks. I am disappointed with this verdict.

Rolle... You know what needs to be done. maxresdefault.jpg

Please... For the people.

Edited by Hollows

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Chewy said:

Oh MY oh my. I have no idea as to why this was marked as a false report. Or NVFL As an ex gamemaster myself but then again maybe times have changed and I'm just stupid. But never have I EVER considered a single punch to a man's face to be met with being sprayed down, NVFL.

Guys in staff, I implore that you take a second look at this report carefully. I've never seen such an outcome for a situation like this before.

This 100%, former GM too personally thought it could be considered Bad RP/ruleplay (whatever ye wanna call it) for spraying someone down for that.

Are staff members clocking 100s of hours in-game before they get accepted as CH? because when I joined staff it was only the people who were well known in the community who knew how to hostile RP, judging by a lot of the recent verdicts I'm guessing the staff just don't have a grasp on the in-game situations they are giving verdicts for.

Edited by Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

I really hope that this verdict was made because of a misunderstanding of the rules. A misunderstanding, like for example of the false report-rule or any other rule, can be cleared up to make sure everyone understands the rules and knows why we have those rules implemented in the first place. 

This verdict makes no sense at all and i hope the admins will see this and correct it. I also hope they make sure the rest of the team will understand the rules, clarify & explain them and how to apply & use them correctly. 

 

As of right now, to break it down: This verdict promotes ruleplay over roleplay & the use of the false report rule is simply incorrect. 

Edited by Terra

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

A false report verdict should only occur when a person reports a rule break, while knowing that no such rule break occurred. 

A false report verdict should not occur when a person is incorrect about a rule break.  Are we trying to discourage people from filing reports?  Imagine Player A speaking to Player B, "I think she broke rule XXX, however, I'm afraid I'll get a false report ban strike if I file a report and it turns out I was wrong." 

Throwing one punch should not be NVFL unless it happened during a hostage situation and not during the normal course of role play (unless the player was warned). 

Edited by Mia

Share this post


Link to post

Also false reports were my idea back in 2012 to combat people falsifying information to try get someone else banned, so I have no idea how it got twisted into banning someone who provided all the correct information in a report especially when the situation is debatable, doesn't make any sense. I'm saying this because false report isn't even in the rules anymore.

"you will be found guilty of filing a false report. You punched a man with an assault-rifle in his hands and allies in direct vicinity."

You could say doing that is a very bad idea, but its a false report? naaah. He felt like there was a rulebreak and provided all the information and didnt lie so it literally can't be a false report if you're basing it on how the actual rule was written.

 

Share this post


Link to post

The fact that no staff member has posted in this thread, along with the fact that multiple people including MANY former staff are calling complete bullshit on this verdict makes it pretty obvious a mistake was made here.

Fix it.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

To preface this, I may be a tad biased as Dusty is a friend of mine in addition to being in the same group as me. 

As most people in this thread say, this verdict seems super off.

To start, with the false report... it doesn't even make sense. kinda ruins the whole "if you feel a rule has been broken, report it" mentality. Being hit with 'false report' for simply reporting what you thought to be a rule break  is absurd.

onto NVFL... I personally don't feel like it was NVFL but I'm sure not everyone shares that opinion. NVFL in this situation is kinda a grey area. Dusty had group members in the area and Scar had allies who, in dusty's video say "We have bigger fish to fry" implying they didn't really want anything to do with the situation. The only thing i can think of being remotely NVFL is dusty punching a guy with a fully auto weapon in his hands, but in my mind that doesn't really constitute as NVFL and was a good conduit to further the hostile RP that the two were having. Instead Scar decides to spray dusty down after one punch...

Thats where i'd like to address the fact that Scar did not receive punishment at all... Scar sprays down dusty for punching him in the head once. The teams decision regarding this being a valid kill is this:

"We cannot allow for situations where people with rifles are unable to defend themselves from punches because it's considered ruleplay. It's not ruleplay either, since one is always allowed to defend oneself when attacked."

though i may agree with this if someone is say..getting jumped or maybe a single person blindsides them with a barrage of heavy stun lock punches, I do not think that a man should be able to gun down another man for simply punching him once regardless of if there was light insults or hostile RP prior. This sets an absolutely awful precedent for players. Take this for example:

player A calls player Bs mother a whore. Player B then punches player A once in the face. Player A then sprays down player B because well...he hit him and his pride was hurt. This ends all RP on the spot and no character progression is had because someone decided they would rather shoot than initiate or duke it out in some other fashion. 

But oh well. I guess I'll have to remember that the next time someone shoots me I can just shoot them without repercussions unlike in these reports and many more.
 

 

 


Oh well. sorry for the rant. free my boy dusty.

Edited by Zombru

Share this post


Link to post

False report can be any time someone creates a report with malicious intent, manipulated evidence, false claims or similar.

I personally suggested false report verdict for this report to the GMs, since I believe it should be a false report in situations where one starts a hostile situation, it doesn't go ones way, one creates a report to get revenge. For example:

  1. Attack or provoke someone (punch, shoot near the legs)
  2. That someone defends themselves fully within their rights
  3. You die
  4. Report them because you're suddenly the victim now?
  5. ???
  6. False report

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Roland said:

False report can be any time someone creates a report with malicious intent, manipulated evidence, false claims or similar.

 I personally suggested false report verdict for this report to the GMs, since I believe it should be a false report in situations where one starts a hostile situation, it doesn't go ones way, one creates a report to get revenge. For example:

  1. Attack or provoke someone (punch, shoot near the legs)
  2. That someone defends themselves fully within their rights
  3. You die
  4. Report them because you're suddenly the victim now?
  5. ???
  6. False report

So initiating is not a good way to go about being punched? I can just shoot them outright and be completely within the rules even if my life isn't "in danger?"

EDIT: Sure, maybe if Dusty had a knife and stun lock is a thing like it is now, I could see killing Dusty, but Dusty literally punched him, once.

Punching isn't a direct threat to your life like having a genuinely lethal weapon is, it's just grounds for initiating hostile roleplay. Initiating was a way better option and knowing full well that you have friends around, even if they were caught up in something else, is no direct danger to you. That is 100% the textbook definition of ruleplay for gunning down Dusty.

Edited by ItzzNate

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, ItzzNate said:

So initiating is not a good way to go about being punched? I can just shoot them outright and be completely within the rules even if my life isn't "in danger?"

I don't think that's on topic of "false report". If you want to discuss what actions qualify as hostile and when your life is in danger, you probably want to create a different thread.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't think that's on topic of "false report". If you want to discuss what actions qualify as hostile and when your life is in danger, you probably want to create a different thread.

I mean, that's literally the basis of the entire report is about it being ruleplay. It's literally in the title of that very report. "S1 Bashnya Ruleplay 2019-04-10, ~03:00" How does that not fall into the topic of debating it not being a false report?

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Roland said:

False report can be any time someone creates a report with malicious intent, manipulated evidence, false claims or similar.

I personally suggested false report verdict for this report to the GMs, since I believe it should be a false report in situations where one starts a hostile situation, it doesn't go ones way, one creates a report to get revenge. For example:

  1. Attack or provoke someone (punch, shoot near the legs)
  2. That someone defends themselves fully within their rights
  3. You die
  4. Report them because you're suddenly the victim now?
  5. ???
  6. False report

So a question then, is every single previous report where someone got gassed for being punched now false, or is this setting a new rule, because this has never been a verdict in any report within this context.

False report can be any time someone creates a report with malicious intent, manipulated evidence, false claims or similar.

Malicious Intent - i don't personally see how malicious intent was involved in this report in any way, as Dusty simply felt that being shot for punching someone wasn't a good way to role play the situation, i don't know if the malicious intent came because he reported someone from a specific group of people, and if it was are we just not supposed to report those people if they break a rule against us because it can be considered "Malicious"?

manipulated evidence - none there

false claims - How are Dusty's claims false here? there have been so many reports that have shown that shooting someone after being punched once is ruleplay that he felt it was a perfectly reasonable report.

I just don't understand how this is a "Revenge" report, like i said before, is it just because of who he reported, are people not allowed to report situations where they died to a rule break because it can be considered a "Revenge" report?

Edited by Shroud

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, Roland said:

False report can be any time someone creates a report with malicious intent, manipulated evidence, false claims or similar.

I personally suggested false report verdict for this report to the GMs, since I believe it should be a false report in situations where one starts a hostile situation, it doesn't go ones way, one creates a report to get revenge. For example:

  1. Attack or provoke someone (punch, shoot near the legs)
  2. That someone defends themselves fully within their rights
  3. You die
  4. Report them because you're suddenly the victim now?
  5. ???
  6. False report

Yeah it seems like you skimmed over it, if you're pushing for more roleplay on the server instead of ruleplay that report is kind of a good example,

"defends themselves full within their rights" ok so its fine within the rules, but how does doing that make sense when you consider the potential for roleplay? considering the shooter had allies around him he was not in any danger from a single punch or being "stun locked." He executed his KOS rights instantly for bullshit reasons, the report should just be rolled back and no verdict given at this point, and just use it as example of what not to do in future.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Shroud said:

So a question then, is every single previous report where someone got gassed for being punched now false, or is this setting a new rule, because this has never been a verdict in any report within this context.

False report can be any time someone creates a report with malicious intent, manipulated evidence, false claims or similar.

Malicious Intent - i don't personally see how malicious intent was involved in this report in any way, as Dusty simply felt that being shot for punching someone wasn't a good way to role play the situation, i don't know if the malicious intent came because he reported someone from a specific group of people, and if it was are we just not supposed to report those people if they break a rule against us?

manipulated evidence - none there

false claims - How are Dusty's claims false here? there have been so many reports that have shown that shooting someone after being punched once is ruleplay that he felt it was a perfectly reasonable report.

I don't see why previous reports would be affected? I have said over and over again that reports to not create precedents, we don't search for and analyze old reports with similar situations before writing a new verdict. Every situation is unique, circumstances are different, players involved and GMs handling the report are different. We are not going and never have pursued consistency of verdicts in reports. We go with what we as a staff team feel is the right thing to do at the time. I have to repeat this every time someone popular gets banned and threads are created to challenge the verdict, because people start linking old reports, sometimes done years ago and say that we are not consistent. Working as intended.

Now that we got this out of the way, my opinion stands just like I mentioned in my previous post. Don't create a reports about getting dropped if you were the first to attack someone, that's just asking for it.

 

10 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Yeah it seems like you skimmed over it, if you're pushing for more roleplay on the server instead of ruleplay that report is kind of a good example,

"defends themselves full within their rights" ok so its fine within the rules, but how does doing that make sense when you consider the potential for roleplay? considering the shooter had allies around him he was not in any danger from a single punch or being "stun locked." He executed his KOS rights instantly for bullshit reasons, the report should just be rolled back and no verdict given at this point, and just use it as example of what not to do in future.

I am always pushing for more role play, however I'm also a stong believer that people should always be able to fairly protect themselves. For example recent rule preventing remote initiations was a step in this direction, so that person being attacked knows exactly who is attacking. And so that's exactly the reason why I disagree with you, I don't think defending oneself from being punched is bullshit. He attacked someone, got dropped for it, all fair and square in my book. Probably should reconsider attacking people holding big guns.

I don't know why this is such a controversial opinion, shouldn't we all value our characters lives and defend ourselves to our best ability in apocalyptic world? Why can we treat other characters as punching bags without facing consequences of our actions? 🤔

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't see why previous reports would be affected? I have said over and over again that reports to not create precedents, we don't search for and analyze old reports with similar situations before writing a new verdict. Every situation is unique, circumstances are different, players involved and GMs handling the report are different. We are not going and never have pursued consistency of verdicts in reports. We go with what we as a staff team feel is the right thing to do at the time. I have to repeat this every time someone popular gets banned and threads are created to challenge the verdict, because people start linking old reports, sometimes done years ago and say that we are not consistent. Working as intended.

Now that we got this out of the way, my opinion stands just like I mentioned in my previous post. Don't create a reports about getting dropped if you were the first to attack someone, that's just asking for it.

 

I am always pushing for more role play, however I'm also a stong believer that people should always be able to fairly protect themselves. For example recent rule preventing remote initiations was a step in this direction, so that person being attacked knows exactly who is attacking. And so that's exactly the reason why I disagree with you, I don't think defending oneself from being punched is bullshit. He attacked someone, got dropped for it, all fair and square in my book. Probably should reconsider attacking people holding big guns.

I don't know why this is such a controversial opinion, shouldn't we all value our characters lives and defend ourselves to our best ability in apocalyptic world? Why can we treat other characters as punching bags without facing consequences of our actions? 🤔

So from what i'm getting if someone punches you at any point in time you are just allowed to spray them down without the consequence of ruleplay yes?

This also still doesn't really explain to me how this was a false report, as he genuinely thought this was a rule-break because of what other reports said, i'm not necessarily saying the staff have to use these previous reports for precedent(even though they should and have before) but previous reports certainly do factor into if someone makes a report, as it clearly did for dusty, and you saying that reporting was asking to be punished doesn't make sense because of verdicts we as a community have seen previously.

This whole situation is blowing my mind to be honest, the way things are being explained just sounds like the staff team went "Yeah fuck this guy, get em out of here"

Edited by Shroud

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't know why this is such a controversial opinion, shouldn't we all value our characters lives and defend ourselves to our best ability in apocalyptic world? Why can we treat other characters as punching bags without facing consequences of our actions? 🤔

And now when someone insults me in game, I'll know it's okay to gun them down - you know, because it's a consequence of insulting me.

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Shroud said:

So from what i'm getting if someone punches you at any point in time you are just allowed to spray them down without the consequence of ruleplay yes?

This also still doesn't really explain to me how this was a false report, as he genuinely thought this was a rule-break because of what other reports said, i'm not necessarily saying the staff have to use these previous reports for precedent(even though they should and have before) but previous reports certainly do factor into if someone makes a report, as it clearly did for dusty.

Not at all, I just said that in this situation where the person got punched, it was not completely unreasonable for the victim to react the way they did and drop the attacker on the spot. 🙂  Staff will never tell you things like "it's ALWAYS ok to do X", simply because circumstances and situation matters and can completely change context.

I don't know how to explain it any better my thoughts about why this is a false report, I added a point form in my first post in here, it pretty much explains it.

Just now, Ke Ke said:

And now when someone insults me in game, I'll know it's okay to gun them down - you know, because it's a consequence of insulting me.

Don't be silly, insults do not deal damage to your character.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Roland said:
  • Attack or provoke someone (punch, shoot near the legs)
  • That someone defends themselves fully within their rights
  • You die
  • Report them because you're suddenly the victim now?
  • ???
  • False report

I think the problem people have with the false report verdict is the fact that very similar reports have been verdicted differently. The fact that it was deemed a false report even though it was relatively reasonable for dusty to put up the report considering there is precedence in favor of the person doing the punching makes very little sense. Shouldn't false report verdicts be reserved for people who put up reports just out of salt against someone when there clearly wasn't any rule breaks?

8 hours ago, MR Pussywhipped said:

In the past if the OP was in the wrong staff would give very obvious opinions on the case and then ask "how do you wish to proceed?". Generally the op would see the error of their ways and agree to close the report.

Also this^

Edited by Osku

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...