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duxpredator

Rules regarding Defenders and Attacking rights

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I was playing today and I feel like I was cheated out by a couple of guys. I was traveling with my buddy, we have been for the past two days, and we were jumped by another team of 2 and they drew on us and threatened us. We were much more geared than they were so I decided that if i draw on them and try to back away nobody would get hurt, but as soon as they saw me swap to my SCAR they shot at me. To me this looked like a violation of my defender rights since i never even threatened them back. So how is it supposed to play out cause it looked like a couple guys just wanting easy free gear from me and my friend even though it didnt make logical sense since it was a 2v2 and we had more firepower than they did. Here is my perspective and my friends: 

 

 

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This looks like a failed robbery more than anything else. You had defender rights but that doesn't mean they're going to just stop their attempts because you go to defend instead of complying. 

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Posted (edited)

Uh.. they initiated, you guys decided not to comply and you won/lost?

Make a report if you feel this was wrong but it doesn't really violate the rules. They had cover and were pretty close, and the way shotgun dmg is they could have easily killed you guys had rng/skill been better. 

 

Edit: He said put your hands up and instead you pull out an AR most people would have shot you tbh.

Edited by Veryniceperson

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But my main point is they didnt take their lives into consideration. They had no fear of death. They opened fire cause they knew we had way more gear than them and they wanted some.

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Just now, duxpredator said:

But my main point is they didnt take their lives into consideration. They had no fear of death. They opened fire cause they knew we had way more gear than them and they wanted some.

They took a chance, they had a reasonable chance of success and ended getting at least one of you? 

You are assuming they were robbing you for gear as you'll never really know now?

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6 minutes ago, Veryniceperson said:

They took a chance, they had a reasonable chance of success and ended getting at least one of you? 

You are assuming they were robbing you for gear as you'll never really know now?

They also broke a few  rules:

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

The second guy chimed in discreetly and was not obvious with the other member.

4.4 Hostile situations must focus on the role play experience of both attackers and victims. Both sides should actively participate and contribute to role play in all situations, any disputes or issues can be discussed and resolved afterwards.

As an attacker you may NOT:

Attack other players just for the sake of gear by doing a quick robbery that involves little to no role play.

Ignore your victims. You must provide an engaging role play to keep things interesting for the victims at all times.

He did not let me roleplay at all as i just drew my gun from my bag and wasnt even able to say anything.

3.2 Your character must behave realistically and appropriately to the different situations you participate in, keeping the current world situation and context of post-apocalyptic world in mind. Do not act in a way that indicates no value for your characters life and survival. For example, attempting to kill people when heavily outnumbered, excessively talking back or insulting someone when taken hostage, or knowingly running into an area of active hostile engagement when not involved in the fight. Characters found guilty of breaking this rule will be permanently marked as dead.

As they clearly wanted to just fight and didnt care about the outcome of their lives. They had no advantage and the numbers were even at best but I had armor and they did not.

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I'll prefix my reply with: if you think they broke the rules make a report.

However, here is why I don't believe they did;

3 minutes ago, duxpredator said:

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

The second guy chimed in discreetly and was not obvious with the other member.

They both clearly told you to put your hands up, you knew where he was and people can, in fact, initiate from cover/concealment. This rule is more for broad stroke initiations like text initiating in a crowded area and then just gassing the person next to you.

6 minutes ago, duxpredator said:

4.4 Hostile situations must focus on the role play experience of both attackers and victims. Both sides should actively participate and contribute to role play in all situations, any disputes or issues can be discussed and resolved afterwards.

As an attacker you may NOT:

Attack other players just for the sake of gear by doing a quick robbery that involves little to no role play.

Alright, he can, in fact, start roleplaying after you have surrendered, you did not comply, thus forfeited any RP he could have given you. My group often starts roleplay at the end of a gun, if you complied and he ran up took your gun and ran off then you'd have a point.

7 minutes ago, duxpredator said:

He did not let me roleplay at all as i just drew my gun from my bag and wasnt even able to say anything.

There was nothing to roleplay, he told you to put your hands in the air and you pulled out an assault rifle. Did you seriously not expect to be shot? Like if a cop is trying to arrest you and you pull out a gun you don't expect him to immediately shoot you? He's clearly trying to hold you up, you pulled a gun in response.

8 minutes ago, duxpredator said:

3.2 Your character must behave realistically and appropriately to the different situations you participate in, keeping the current world situation and context of post-apocalyptic world in mind. Do not act in a way that indicates no value for your characters life and survival. For example, attempting to kill people when heavily outnumbered, excessively talking back or insulting someone when taken hostage, or knowingly running into an area of active hostile engagement when not involved in the fight. Characters found guilty of breaking this rule will be permanently marked as dead.

As they clearly wanted to just fight and didnt care about the outcome of their lives. They had no advantage and the numbers were even at best but I had armor and they did not.

As all I have to go on is the video their intention to hold you up is quite clear. That is allowed and is realistic in an apocalypse scenario. I'd argue realistically you didn't care about your life seeing as you pulled out a gun after clearly being told to put your hands in the air by a man pointing a shotgun at your chest. They had equal numbers and half the time shotgun pellets ignore armour (rip Ducky). Point being they had a reasonable chance of killing you if a fight broke out. 

Perhaps next time you might want to consider complying and seeing if they provide you any roleplay, then this kind of a thread might have some backing behind it. 

You were initiated on, you chose to fight back by ignoring clear demands and pulling out a weapon to defend yourself with and died.  

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"There was nothing to roleplay, he told you to put your hands in the air and you pulled out an assault rifle. Did you seriously not expect to be shot? Like if a cop is trying to arrest you and you pull out a gun you don't expect him to immediately shoot you? He's clearly trying to hold you up, you pulled a gun in response."

Alright so let me make this clear. 1 civilians walks up to what looks like 2 people full of military gear and then tells them to put their hands up and then his buddy comes along a few seconds later and then says to put my hands up. Threatening people with armor and actual rifles, with a shotgun. Makes perfect sense. I dont know about that.

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14 hours ago, duxpredator said:

"There was nothing to roleplay, he told you to put your hands in the air and you pulled out an assault rifle. Did you seriously not expect to be shot? Like if a cop is trying to arrest you and you pull out a gun you don't expect him to immediately shoot you? He's clearly trying to hold you up, you pulled a gun in response."

Alright so let me make this clear. 1 civilians walks up to what looks like 2 people full of military gear and then tells them to put their hands up and then his buddy comes along a few seconds later and then says to put my hands up. Threatening people with armor and actual rifles, with a shotgun. Makes perfect sense. I dont know about that.

Make a report if you feel like a rule was broken then.

Two people initiate from relative cover/concealment and kill at least one of you, I don't even know if SKS guy actually survived the encounter seeing as the video ends, but this wasn't a rulebreak. 

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14 hours ago, duxpredator said:

Alright so let me make this clear. 1 civilians walks up to what looks like 2 people full of military gear and then tells them to put their hands up and then his buddy comes along a few seconds later and then says to put my hands up. Threatening people with armor and actual rifles, with a shotgun. Makes perfect sense. I dont know about that.

You are new to the community, so its understandable that you don't know how the rules are applied. Reading them is very different then seeing them in reports.

 

You are too caught up on the gear. It was a 2v2. The fact they killed one of you and left you running off to bandage goes to show they /could/ in fact have won, and may actually have won once the video was cut. It is utterly irrelevant that you had more gear then them; They dropped a valid initiation, and you didn't comply. You got shot. That is what happens when you don't comply. No one is under any obligation to attempt to roleplay with a non-compliant defender. 

 

A shotgun can instantly kill at point blank range, regardless of gear. Bullets are the great equalizer. Don't think you are owed any respect for walking around in military gear.

 

You can't complain they didn't provide you roleplay when you didn't comply. As VeryNicePerson said, you ended the chance of RP there. If they had taken you hostage and /then/ proceeded to just grab your gear and run, you'd have a valid complaint.

 

 

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Nah, a 2v2 isn't NVFL, unless they're pulling some wild unarmed tactics shit.

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Posted (edited)

I got all the gear back in an a couple hours so its really no biggie. I'm just trying to understand the rules and know what to do next time. So, If i told the first guy that ran up "No further, or I'll shoot" Is that legal? Or could I only have drawn on him and then if he kept proceeding then i could shoot. Thanks for all the help. I am very new to RP and dont know the rules of engagements other than reading it 3 or so times.  Edit: My friend did get out so they got me and I got one.

Edited by duxpredator

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1 minute ago, duxpredator said:

I got all the gear back in an a couple hours so its really no biggie. I'm just trying to understand the rules and know what to do next time. So, If i told the first guy that ran up "No further, or I'll shoot" Is that legal? Or could I only have drawn on him and then if he kept proceeding then i could shoot. Thanks for all the help. I am very new to RP and dont know the rules of engagements other than reading it 3 or so times.  Edit: My friend did get out so they got me and I got one.

 

So, here is how that plays out.

 

You must deliver a command and a threat. If you said 'Don't come any closer' that is just a command, so not a proper initiation. You can't shoot him.

 

If you said 'Don't come any closer or I will shoot you' you have grounds to shoot him if he comes closer, but make sure you give a reasonable command and reasonable time to comply. You must allow the person involved the opportunity to actually understand and process the message. 

 

If you said 'Don't come any closer' AND raised your gun and pointed it at him, that is your threat. Leveling a gun at someone and aiming at them is considered a threat, however if you ONLY point a gun at someone that is not an initiation, you need to give a demand of some kind. You also must make sure they can actually see you and understand you are pointing a gun at them. You can't point a gun at someone from a bush and give a command that doesn't include a threat, for example. It must be clear and not open to interpretation what is happening.

 

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