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APositiveElmo

Hostage Demands Question

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So I read a report recently that seemed pretty, as the staff are so fond of saying these days, clear cut in regards to what rulebreaks were committed. However, I would not be here if the aforementioned report had played out as expected, therefore it is reasonable to assume that I have a question to pose, which I most certainly do.

Report in question: 

Spoiler

 

Alright so, long and short of it is that a lad was taken captive, then was subsequently asked to strip his kit off so his captor could perform a thorough search of him. Now, any long time player, or any player who played extensively before the big rule shakeup, will know that it was a guaranteed Bad RP verdict if you stripped people naked simply to search them for weapons. The report verdict in question follows this age old precedent and slaps the suspect with a Bad RP ban, thus invalidating the demand as rule-following.

Now, onto the meat and potatoes of this question, it is also shown in the verdict that the victim received a punishment for NVFL. Why? Honestly the GM who wrote the verdict did a poor job in justifying their team's findings, though the reasoning behind it was that the OP should have complied with the situation and gone with the invalid demands to value their own life, therefore his non-compliance is NVFL. This is not at all a sensible finding in my opinion, as it is opening up hostages to a wider range of abuses, namely being forced to commit rulebreaks under the pain of having their character permanently killed if they do not comply. 

Example: Adam and Bobby are taken captive by Charlie. They are taken to a secluded location, where Charlie demands that Adam beats Bobby to death or Adam will be shot and killed. Adam must then beat Bobby to death, with absolutely 0 rights to do so, or be punished for NVFL. However, if he does this, he is also guilty of an invalid kill. It is a lose-lose situation for Adam. The hostage is offered 0 protection in this situation and is treated as if they were under no duress, therefore they are subject to full punishment in a report.

So, my question to the community and any staff who may care to answer, do you believe that this is a fair and reasonable way for the rules to treat hostages who are subjected to invalid demands? Why? Why not?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Elmo said:

So, my question to the community and any staff who may care to answer, do you believe that this is a fair and reasonable way for the rules to treat hostages who are subjected to invalid demands?

No. It doesn't make much sense tbh.

Edited by AndreyQ

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Posted (edited)

I am honestly very surprised how that verdict came out that way it did. That situation shouldn't have happened in the first place cause it is a rule break, punishing the victim of a rulebreak with NVFL and PK'ing is very weird to me.

That opens up so many holes to abuse the system, like Elmo just explained:

Hostagetaker demand you kill the second hostage. When you do it, its an invalid kill. When you don't do it, they will kill you and it's NVFL? Either way you're fucked now? Even though it is not you, who brought up that situation? 

That does not seem right to me and I completely agree with Elmo here.

Edited by Lyca

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Posted (edited)

Uhm what..?

Didnt @Jean make a report where she refused to strip all the way down and was executed for it?

Her captors were hit with BadRP and she came out scot-free, as she should.

How is this situation ANY different than prior situations, how in the world was that NVFL verdict reached?

Edited by Ducky

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Yikes. That verdict really did surprise me as well. I honestly cannot imagine how NOT stripping naked for a hostage taker could be considered NVFL. I was also under the impression that it was BadRP and just bad practice and not allowed in general to make someone strip down to their skivvies to be searched. Like the justification used for "While it was against the rules u should do it anyways" makes no sense to me. If someone takes me hostage and beings raping me should I play along too and moan along with them to further the RP because they'll kill me if I don't?

Pretty ridiculous right? Same thing here. Just because they say they'll kill you for not complying doesn't mean you should HAVE to play along, especially if it's a rulebreak, simply because it might "further the RP" or whatever. 

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The report that @Ducky mentioned is linked here for those curious:

 

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Super, super surprised that it was done that way.

I can almost guarantee that if it had been a woman there would have been no punishment for it. I CAN guarantee that because it HAS happened before. AKA what @Ducky just said.

The justification of "he's made a rule break, but you need to follow along with what he's done otherwise you can get points too" is fucking ridiculous in my mind.

Especially given the recent stuff with the Rape RP that had happened, with that rule in mind if my character is being raped without my consent if I don't go along with it and I act out of turn, I'll get NVFL and a PK as well?

Nope. Don't agree.

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3 minutes ago, Lyca said:

Hostagetaker demand you kill the second hostage. When you do it, its an invalid kill. When you don't do it, they will kill you and it's NVFL? Either way you're fucked now? Even though it is not you, who brought up that situation? 

The first hostage would not be punished for killing the second, due to the fact that his life has been threatened if he does not do so, he wouldn't be hit with an Invalid Execution, the hostage taker would be, so even though it is a blatant rule break in game, the first hostage would not be held responsible for this as he is only acting realistically to the RP scenario, the rule break is addressed after the situation ends, as to not disrupt the RP.

I was invalidly executed at one point, and I complied to the firing squad, knowing it was a rule break, for the sake of the RP scenario, the reports and rulebreaks are all dealt with afterwards. 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, DaRsnn said:

The first hostage would not be punished for killing the second, due to the fact that his life has been threatened if he does not do so, he wouldn't be hit with an Invalid Execution, the hostage taker would be, so even though it is a blatant rule break in game, the first hostage would not be held responsible for this as he is only acting realistically to the RP scenario, the rule break is addressed after the situation ends, as to not disrupt the RP.

I was invalidly executed at one point, and I complied to the firing squad, knowing it was a rule break, for the sake of the RP scenario, the reports and rulebreaks are all dealt with afterwards. 

Then why was he punished for NVFL and got his character permakilled for a rulebreak someone else did?

According to that I have to follow through with every rulebreak a hostage taker is throwing at me to not disrupt the "RP". 

Edited by Lyca

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Posted (edited)

The report seems rushed to me as well.  Going from "is there video evidence?" to here's the verdict! 

How about asking some questions of the situation?  Try to find out what was going on based off more than a couple of vague POV's.

But there is currently an appeal up, hopefully the people who work on it, take the time to get ot right.

Edited by MR Pussywhipped
Spellingz

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Lyca said:

Then why was he punished for NVFL and got his character permakilled for a rulebreak someone else did?

According to that I have to follow through with every rulebreak a hostage taker is throwing at me to not disrupt the "RP". 

Because he didn't comply to the demands, they were invalid yes, but they were not worth dying for IG, being asked to strip is an easy enough task to accomplish, so that's why.

If you are a hostage, you do everything you can to stay alive, otherwise it is NVFL, even if there is a rulebreak, record and report after, cause otherwise there will be unnecessary OOC in text and or voice chat.

Edited by DaRsnn

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Staff is not at liberty to discuss this issue as it concerns an ongoing appeal. We'll come back and touch up on this topic once the appeal has been seen through.

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2 minutes ago, DaRsnn said:

Because he didn't comply to the demands, they were invalid yes, but they were not worth dying for IG, being asked to strip is an easy enough task to accomplish, so that's why

Still doesn't seem right to me to punish the victim, when the captor broke a rule. 

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1 minute ago, DaRsnn said:

Because he didn't comply to the demands, they were invalid yes, but they were not worth dying for IG, being asked to strip is an easy enough task to accomplish, so that's why

I get that. 

But... Also, no. 

The whole "easy enough to accomplish" doesn't sit well with me.

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4 minutes ago, DaRsnn said:

Because he didn't comply to the demands, they were invalid yes, but they were not worth dying for IG, being asked to strip is an easy enough task to accomplish, so that's why.

If you are a hostage, you do everything you can to stay alive, otherwise it is NVFL, even if there is a rulebreak, record and report after, cause otherwise there will be unnecessary OOC in text and or voice chat.

Define "Worth Dying For"

According to the NVFL rule, nothing is worth dying for, and you should always value your characters life.

Gonna be a hard pass from me chief, this verdict was utter trash.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, DaRsnn said:

Because he didn't comply to the demands, they were invalid yes, but they were not worth dying for IG, being asked to strip is an easy enough task to accomplish, so that's why

I get what you're saying there.  Basically go along with an RP situation, no matter what, it just seems to me that without video evidence we don't know the whole story. (Maybe the aggressor rp was excellent?  But it seemed like he wus ruleplaying the situation for an easy kill here)

 It still seems harsh as hell for someone to get slapped with NVFL after receiving badRP in the situation.  Especially with a perma kill of his character.  Personally without anything else I would have warned him, the ban is too much.

Edited by MR Pussywhipped

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, DaRsnn said:

Because he didn't comply to the demands, they were invalid yes, but they were not worth dying for IG, being asked to strip is an easy enough task to accomplish, so that's why

So next time I ask a hostage for something simple like information about his group and he says no, can I just kill him and then report him for NVFL and get him banned and his character PKed? Or do I have to give him an invalid demand to do so?

Edited by AndreyQ

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3 minutes ago, DaRsnn said:

Because he didn't comply to the demands, they were invalid yes, but they were not worth dying for IG, being asked to strip is an easy enough task to accomplish, so that's why

This is so silly oh my lord.

If my demand is "run around like a chicken, make chicken noises and then shit on your friend" it's still invalid. Why the fuck are we punishing hostages for invalid demands? This has never been a thing, as @Roland has given verdict on in the past with @Red.

That's like i can take somebody down with me by making them do something ridiculous.

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3 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

So next time I ask a hostage for something simple like information about his group and he says no, can I just kill him and then report him for NVFL and get him banned and his character PKed? Or do I have to give him an invalid demand to do so?

Oh god... all those possibility. 

Like please. Can we not? 

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Usually one does not have to comply to invalid demands and cannot be killed for not fulfilling them.

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4 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

So next time I ask a hostage for something simple like information about his group and he says no, can I just kill him and then report him for NVFL and get him banned and his character PKed? Or do I have to give him an invalid demand to do so?

I had this exact question in another report as well...

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3 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

So next time I ask a hostage for something simple like information about his group or sth like that and he says no, can I just kill him and then report him for NVFL and get him banned and his character PKed? 

I mean if you have the IC knowledge about him and know he is withholding information, make the demand that he tells you or he will die, and he says no, then yes, it has happened many times and there have been reports including that exact situation.

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1 minute ago, DaRsnn said:

I mean if you have the IC knowledge about him and know he is withholding information, make the demand that he tells you or he will die, and he says no, then yes, it has happened many times and there have been reports including that exact situation.

And this is the reason why you see people complain about bad hostile RP.

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Just now, AndreyQ said:

And this is the reason why you see people complain about bad hostile RP.

vice-versa, hostile RP is two way, the hostage taker leads the RP but it is also up to the hostage to contribute

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3 minutes ago, DaRsnn said:

I mean if you have the IC knowledge about him and know he is withholding information, make the demand that he tells you or he will die, and he says no, then yes, it has happened many times and there have been reports including that exact situation.

 

But like... Roleplay > ruleplay....? 

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