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Roman

S1 Green Mountain - Invalid Execution/RulePlay

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Posted (edited)

Server and location: S1 Green Mountain

Approximate time and date of the incident (SERVER TIME): 2019-03-30, 21:39

Your in game name: Gabriel Valentin

Names of allies involved: Alyssa Black, Derek Crow

Name of suspect/s: Dew and The Jackals

Friendly/Enemy vehicles involved (if any): N/A

Additional evidence? (video/screenshot): 

Detailed description of the events: 

So I walked up to Green Mountain to see if there were anyone there and saw several people with orange armbands. They approached me and asked me about my white armband. Knowing that several groups are hunting us I tried to lie about who I was with and said that it was a bandage for a cut I got earlier. They questioned it and asked me to remove it (which I did) so they could check if there were any cuts. I emoted that there were no cut so they then told me to get to the main building where I got initiated on. There they started questioning me about me and my friends and I tried to lie about us to protect my friends. After some hostilities I eventually told them the truth and they then asked me to radio my friends and get them there which I did. After a little while @ScarletRose and @yuthee arrived and got taken by them and brought them to my building. They started making demands that we are to stop doing what we do in the country and told us to leave South Zagoria and if they would ever hear that we were still around they would gut us as a f****g fish. @ScarletRose agreed to their demands and asked for their frequency. When that was over @Dew asked me to step aside and said "...and to show you that I mean business" he executed me.

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I was roleplaying my character and I gave vague and false answers to protect my group as it would not be realistic for me to tell the whole truth to everyone who asks. There are many threats that people make during a hostile encounter, such as the threat of death, threat to leave the country etc that are not valid demands. While they did tell me not to lie or they would kill me, I did not take this to be an attempt to gain grounds for execution. I do not recall a very clear demand for me to answer a specific question and I am also unsure how they would prove me to be lying. I am still unsure about what they believe to be the lie that warranted my death. Once I had told the truth, the RP continued and it was only probably 20 minutes later that they decided to execute me under the guise of an entirely different reason. If the demand was clearly meant to be an answer or die request, I did not interpret it as such and hence continued to RP in keeping with my character. I was completely shocked when I was executed and immediately thought it was a rule break. Only when Jasper provided clarification did I realize that they believed they had rights based on what I had said earlier. I was under the impression that this was an interrogation, where they would force me to reveal more and more information. If I realized that they believed that saying they would kill me if I lied was grounds for execution, I guess I would have told them everything from the start, even though this would be completely out of character simply to avoid death. I believe that I was invalidly executed considering the circumstances, but if staff believe that their demands were sufficient, then I would like to report for rule play. If they believe they gained rights to kill me based on a lie, then why did they not kill me at the time and instead continue with the RP and use their ‘kill rights’ to make an entirely different point.

Edited by Roman

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@Romanradiod us IC to say that he was swarmed by infected at GM. It was obviously a trap but Yuthee and I surrendered to them anyway in fear of our friend getting hurt.

I was happy when I realised it was the Jackals, as we have been looking for a chance to negotiate a deal that does not involve them constantly hunting us. However, before I was given the chance to speak, I was told that we are going to stop doing what we are doing, ditch the white armbands, and get the fuck out of here. They told us they don’t care what we do as long as our activities don’t conflict with theirs, but we cant carve a mark as this is their thing. I was happy to go up north to avoid running into them, but then the demand was given to leave South Zagoria. They said that if they hear whispers of us still around they are going to come after us and ‘gut you like a fucking fish.’ To ‘show you that we mean business’, they asked Gabriel to walk over and proceeded to execute, to our knowledge, a compliant hostage.

This was extremely disappointing and unnecessary. There were multiple ways that they could have threatened us and made their point without the need to kill a hostage, like torturing us as a warning. This would have carried far more weight as I fail to the see the benefit to the RP of simply shooting someone dead. This immediately ruined the situation for me, as for one, I believed it to be a rule break, and two, in my opinion, it showed their blatant lack of regard for actually providing enjoyable and engaging RP. I refused the subsequent request for perma scars, something I normally never do, as I failed to see the value it would add to the RP considering they have announced their intention to kill us if they ever see us again. There needs to be give and take in my opinion.

We have a hostile dynamic that try to avoid exposure, particularly from large groups. We have kept our group page off of the forums to prevent metagaming and revealing our members and MO. I fail to see how someone can initiate and say ‘lie to us and we will kill you’ and that be valid. Does this mean that to every group we encounter who makes this demand, we must be forced to reveal sensitive information about our group and answer every question as if under the effects of a truth serum for fear of being executed? It is simply not a valid demand in my opinion. The situation was role played and this should always be prioritised over rule play. Forcing us to answer questions in this manner is an exploitation of the rule in my opinion. By their argument, if we get taken by a hostile group, we have to abandon the values and personalities of our characters. Our characters are bad people, they hurt people and they play their games and of course they lie to cover this up. We give fake names, we pretend to be victims of our group, we lie about the significance of the armbands. This has led to some incredible RP. If you engage us with RP, we will give you more and more information. Threaten us, beat us, torture us, but don’t use what you believe are execution rights simply because you think you can. It was a very disappointing incident in what could have been really good hostile RP.

I do not believe from what I know that Roman lying was a valid grounds for his execution. I will let him delve into the specifics of that. However, if not invalid execution, I call for this to be Rule Play. Roman lied to you before we encountered you, yet you wait until the RP is nearing a conclusion to use your supposed execution rights. This to me is blatant rule play. You feel that you have caught him out on a technicality, but instead of shooting him immediately, you wait to use it to ‘show us you mean business’. In my opinion, as Roman was cooperative the entire time and we gave you no other avenue for you to kill us, you exploited his attempts to provide realistic RP because you wanted to execute someone. I fail to see how this is not either an invalid execution or rule play.

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Timestamps:
Video starts after we have dropped our things and start walking towards the building
8:15 - Roman's invalid execution

 

Derek Crow POV: Myself and @ScarletRose are travelling through Pavlovo when we receive an obvious call from @Roman to lure us into a trap after he was taken hostage. We discover very shortly afterwards that it's the Jackals. We go there willingly and surrender to them as we did not want to see our friend get hurt. Before we get a chance to negotiate or explain anything, we were given demands as hostages. Go to the Black Mountains or die. After a bit of talking, they go to set an example and @Dew guns down Roman. Which I believe was uncalled for and was an obvious disregard for trying to provide proper hostile RP. I think that executing hostages under any circumstances should be a last resort. At no time did he pose a threat to them or from what I thought gave them any reason for execution during our talk with them, making the execution invalid. We then get questioned by Jasper about what we do. I get kneed in the testicles then they release us shortly afterwards and tell us leave the country or be hunted and killed. After talking with @Jasper through PMs it was discovered that they executed Roman on grounds for lying. I assumed this was prior to when ScarletRose and myself had arrived. My question is why was he executed for lying when clearly he stopped and roleplay was continuing and then the reasoning given to us was to 'set an example.' If execution rights work like that then it puts hostages in a situation where they are to give up anything and everything or be grounds to be executed at any time during the hostage situation.

For example, I tell someone to stop with their disrespect and attitude. They tell me "fine you slimy piece of shit". RP continues and I'm able to extract all information about them as possible, then 15 minutes pass and I execute him for calling me a "slimy piece of shit." This would be a clear exploitation of the rules to gain IC information and to execute hostages. This can also lead to loopholes in the hostage taker's advantage where with these types of executions they can force their hostages to not remember what happened, such as how much information was told or to who, or break NLR.
 

 

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Posted (edited)

Jamell Antoinette POV:

I roll up to Green Mountain after some people were killed there, I don't recall why, and we see a white armband man there. We had been on the lookout for white armband folk as we have had people walking up to us numerous times throughout the past few weeks confusing us for them, and assuming that we were out there raping, torturing, and beating random people for no real reason, and even our own allies.

So we ask the man if he's with them, he says no it's for a wound, I check the for a wound under the armband and there is none. We take him hostage and inform him that since he lied to us out there, we need honesty from here on out, and that if he continued to lie to us and if we found out, he would be as Dew said "Walking out of there with a bullet in his head" and that he would die if he didn't stop lying.

He continued to preach his innocence to us time and time again and misdirecting us. After some talking once Dew left the room I was able to convince him to tell us the truth and he admitted to lying to us on just about every detail. He admits to being with the white armbands, he admits to what they do, and that he is a new member however. 

Dew then shoots a line around the man to scare him and then gets him to contact his people to spring a trap to get them to come here and take them captive as well. We are then initiated on the outside of the compound by an unknown party who says to let the man go or we all die. We never see this man again and he apparently wasn't with OP or his party so who the fuck knows who that was. 

Anyways they arrive and are escorted inside, they are questioned by Dew and they confirm once again that that is their man, further solidifying to us that he lied to us even after being clearly instructed to what would happen if we found out he was lying. 

We then commence some interrogation RP and the man is promptly executed by Dew to send a message to the leaders who didn't seem to be taking it particuarly seriously and we didn't like the weird "Im a genius manipulator that's still in control here" tone of the lady. So we did that because A) We had rights on him and B) We wanted to get a reaction from the leaders who didn't really seem to engage or care about what we were doing there. 

I don't really see how this was an invalid execution to be frank. We told him if he lies he dies. He then lies for another ten or so minutes before confessing to lying about everything. And the fact that you're trying to paint this like we killed him to avoid roleplaying with him further @yuthee is frankly offensive and misleading. If that was the case would we not have killed him off that bat? Would we have taken both of you hostage too? Would we have roleplayed with all of you extensively after the fact? Would we have bothered with half of anything we did? Why would we wait til the very end to do it and only do it in reaction to you not really giving a shit or taking it seriously? 

Honestly this whole report and your guys' attitudes about how the RP went is very disappointing as I was told that your guys' RP was much the opposite. I don't have any video evidence of the situation. 

@ScarletRose

Again with the dishonest proportion of us being execution hungry mongs that hate roleplay. I don't know why this is the narrative you're choosing to go with, but go ahead, it's a bit of a straw man in my eyes as I said, we wouldn't have gone through the efforts we did and spend over 30+ minutes on the whole situation purely interrogating and RPing with everyone if we just wanted to kill you all and be done with it. It's honestly as I said, a bit offensive that you're trying to paint me and my friends in that kind of light. 

If this is how you react to an IC consequence to your IC actions not going the way you wanted, I strongly recommend you take a step back and take a deep breath. 

Edited by Jasper

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Posted (edited)

-snip it didn't merge my posts- 

Edited by Jasper

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1 hour ago, Roman said:

While they did tell me not to lie or they would kill me, I did not take this to be an attempt to gain grounds for execution. 

I would like to counter report for false report and lying in a report. As seen here he claims the above. How else could you possibly take such a threat? In what world would 4 men telling you individually that you were GOING TO DIE if you CONTINUE TO LIE, and then you do so and we verify you were lying by a third party and by your own admission, and then claim you didn't undestand what we asked of you. You LITERALLY were asked to recite what we were going to do to you if you were lying by @Dew. You said out loud in game by his demand "If I lie you will kill me and you will leave me with a hole in my head" like I really don't think you "didn't understand" at all. 

1 hour ago, Roman said:

I do not recall a very clear demand for me to answer a specific question and I am also unsure how they would prove me to be lying.

We proved you were lying because you admitted to us you lied yourself and Eagle verified that you were one of them to us. Again, don't see how you're "confused" at all by this. 

1 hour ago, Roman said:

I am still unsure about what they believe to be the lie that warranted my death.

All of them? You're literally answering your own questions fam. You were told at least 4 times that if you were lying to us and were caught lying. You. Would. Die. You lied repeatedly to us, we found out, we killed you later because A) We had execution on you B) We wanted to send a message to your largely emotionless and quiet overlords. 

1 hour ago, Roman said:

Once I had told the truth, the RP continued and it was only probably 20 minutes later that they decided to execute me under the guise of an entirely different reason. 

No. Again, you died because we had reason to execute you and did it because your leaders were being quiet and emotionless as fuck and didn't seem very shaken for people that are being put in a life or death scenario. You were killed IC wise to send a message to your leaders as we didn't feel like they understood or projected that they understood the severity of the situation they were in. 

1 hour ago, Roman said:

I was completely shocked when I was executed and immediately thought it was a rule break. Only when Jasper provided clarification did I realize that they believed they had rights based on what I had said earlier. I was under the impression that this was an interrogation, where they would force me to reveal more and more information. If I realized that they believed that saying they would kill me if I lied was grounds for execution, I guess I would have told them everything from the start, even though this would be completely out of character simply to avoid death. I believe that I was invalidly executed considering the circumstances, but if staff believe that their demands were sufficient, then I would like to report for rule play. If they believe they gained rights to kill me based on a lie, then why did they not kill me at the time and instead continue with the RP and use their ‘kill rights’ to make an entirely different point.

So you're literally saying we ruleplayed you not because we killed you but because we CONTINUED TO RP WITH YOU for an extended period of time before doing so? I don't understand at all. But alright. I think I've made my points. I'm counter reporting for lying in a report and false report as you're painting this image that you were completely ignorant of our demands to you as if we didn't tell you consistently exactly what would happen to you if you were caught lying. That's not the case. We literally had you say OUT LOUD in game "I will be shot by you if I am caught lying you will leave a hole in my head" Like I feel like you're lying here to misrepresent the situation just to make it look like you were completely lost in this instance and weren't clearly told what was going to happen. 

False report because this is made under what I believe to be knowingly false pretenses. Just throwing whatever you can and seeing if anything sticks. 

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Hit Logs:

Spoiler
20:45:21 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into Torso with MeleeFist_Heavy
20:45:22 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into Head with MeleeFist_Heavy
20:45:22 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into LeftHand with MeleeFist_Heavy
20:45:23 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into Torso with MeleeFist_Heavy
21:06:46 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Hector Rodriguez" into RightArm with MeleeFist_Heavy
21:19:05 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into LeftArm with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:05 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into LeftArm with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:05 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into LeftArm with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:05 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into LeftArm with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:05 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into LeftArm with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:05 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into Torso with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:06 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into Torso with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:06 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into Torso with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 
21:19:06 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" hit by Player "Joe Dewski" into Heart with Bullet_9x19 from 1.76498 meters 

 

Kill Logs:

Spoiler
21:19:06 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" killed by Player "Joe Dewski" with SG5-K

 

Chat Logs:

Spoiler
20:03:12 | Chat("Jamell Antoinette"): *Frisks the man for a radio* //do i find one?
20:41:49 | Chat("Jamell Antoinette"): *Looks for wound* //do i find one?
20:41:53 | Chat("Gabriel Valentin"): //nah ;)
20:44:28 | Chat("Gabriel Valentin"): //no channel
20:55:50 | Chat("Joe Dewski"): *He would look at this mans gun*
20:56:10 | Chat("Gabriel Valentin"): *talks in french*
20:56:40 | Chat("Gabriel Valentin"): //I don't speak french wtf :D
20:56:44 | Chat("Jamell Antoinette"): //oh
20:56:49 | Chat("Hector Rodriguez"): //emote it
20:56:51 | Chat("Jamell Antoinette"): //I asked if you were a rapist or cannibal fam
20:56:56 | Chat("Hector Rodriguez"): //we will pretend to not understand
20:57:08 | Chat("Gabriel Valentin"): *speaks in french* I am not a rapist or cannibal brother
20:58:20 | Chat("Gabriel Valentin"): *speaks in french* please help me fellow Lyonian
20:59:57 | Chat("Jamell Antoinette"): *Hands him his radio*
21:01:45 | Chat("Gabriel Valentin"): *why wont you help a fellow french brother from Lyon?*
21:18:18 | Chat("Joe Dewski"): *Would take out a pen, and writes Joe Dewski's freq*
21:18:18 | Chat("Joe Dewski"): *Would take out a pen, and writes Joe Dewski's freq*
21:18:23 | Chat("Joe Dewski"): //Dew on the forums
21:18:27 | Chat("Alyssa Black"): *she takes it.*
21:21:31 | Chat("Joe Dewski"): //Permission to perm scar you both?
21:21:51 | Chat("Alyssa Black"): //declined
21:21:53 | Chat("Derek Crow"): //no
21:22:39 | Chat("Jamell Antoinette"): *Grabs the woman by the throat and slams her against the wall*
21:24:51 | Chat("Jamell Antoinette"): *Knees the man in the testicles*
22:32:19 | Chat("Alyssa Black"): *she swings the knife hard against his arm, slashing it deep into his skin.*
22:32:45 | Chat("Derek Crow"): *He would grab his arm, blood trickling between his fingers*
22:33:36 | Chat("Derek Crow"): *He would hold a rag against his arm, quickly soaking in his blood*
22:36:11 | Chat("Derek Crow"): *He would grimace and hold rags to his other arm*
22:36:47 | Chat("Derek Crow"): *Blood would soak the rags*
22:37:41 | Chat("Alyssa Black"): *She hands him a piece of paper with her frequency.*
22:37:46 | Chat("Alyssa Black"): //ScarletRose on Forums
22:38:08 | Chat("Derek Crow"): *He would wrap his arms tightly with the rags*

 

Connection Logs:

Spoiler
20:37:49 | Player "Gabriel Valentin" is connected
-Died-

20:18:03 | Player "Alyssa Black" is connected
23:59:48 | Player "Alyssa Black" has been disconnected
00:00:38 | Player "Alyssa Black" is connected 
00:38:29 | Player "Alyssa Black" has been disconnected

20:18:48 | Player "Derek Crow" is connected
00:38:29 | Player "Derek Crow" has been disconnected

18:39:58 | Player "Jamell Antoinette" is connected
22:08:33 | Player "Jamell Antoinette" has been disconnected

20:03:10 | Player "Joe Dewski" is connected
22:08:31 | Player "Joe Dewski" has been disconnected

18:42:23 | Player "Hector Rodriguez" is connected 
22:00:01 | Player "Hector Rodriguez" has been disconnected

 

Calling in:

@Roman - Gabriel Valentin | POSTED

@ScarletRose - Alyssa Black | POSTED

@yuthee - Derek Crow | POSTED

@Jasper - Jamell Antoinette | POSTED

@Dew - Joe Dewski | POSTED

@DaRsnn - Hector Rodriguez | POSTED

For their full detailed POV. Along with any other evidence that they may have of this situation. Please also list all of your allies that are involved in this situation.

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Posted (edited)

Hector Rodriguez POV:

We have just dealt with a situation up at GM, then @Roman approaches wearing a white armband, we tell him to come inside and ask him to explain to us what the white armband is about, he tells us that it is to cover an injury, we ask him to kindly remove it so that we can see the 'injury' and he tells us in OOC that there isn't one, so we explain to him that we know the people who run around with white armbands on and that if we catch him lying again he will be executed, to which he agrees, we pull him inside the camo building for further questioning and he was telling us that he had only recently been around Chernarus and he didn't know the white armbands and wasn't with them, but that he had run into them and had a chat, we question him further in order to find out if he is lying and he eventually tells us that he does know them and that he has their frequency, hence why he was wearing a white armband to begin with, we tell him to contact his friends and tell them to come collect him from GM. @ScarletRose and @yuthee arrive and before we initiate we hear someone scream "If you don't let the man go we will shoot" or something like that, we do not believe it was either of the two so we initiate on them and bring them inside with @Roman, we RP for a bit, ask them some questions, then @Dew executes @Roman because he had lied about his affiliation and knowledge of the white armbands after being told if we found him lying again he would be shot, and it is also done to set an example to the other hostages as part of the RP narrative. We get the necessary information, give them some food and send them packing.

Edited by DaRsnn

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Joe Dewski POV:

We were in GM and were finishing up with a prior situation that involved one of our guys being held up. After we were done with the situation we were about to head out of GM until we spot a fellow outside the compound wearing a white armband. We ask him what the armband was in which he replied to "I got cut". I assumed he was telling the truth, but @Jasper was 200iq and asked to see the wound, which proved that he did not have a wound. After that we decided to take him hostage in the admin building. Straight away after we gotten him to drop his gun and his radio we told him "If you lie, I will put a bullet in your head". I made it exceedingly clear that if he lies to us I will kill him. Moreover, at one point, we made him repeat to us what I would do to him if he lies. The claim that he didn't know what would happen if he lied is simply absurd. I'm not sure how much more clear we could have made it for him as to what would happen if we found out he was lying to us. 

Once we had him hostage and it was made CLEAR what would happen if he lied we continued our hostage rp. To be completely honest the hostage RP was great, I enjoyed @Roman's RP and I'm assuming he was enjoying ours as well since he was interacting and responding to us the whole time. We continued interrogating him trying to get out of him all the information we could but he kept denying being with these white armbands. Even though he should have known what would happen if we figured out he was lying. After some more back and forth I walked away for a few seconds to get on the radio and contact @Eagle since he knew who was who when it came to the White armbands. After speaking with Eagle he made it clear that @Roman's character was a white armband and that he is lying saying he isn't. After I had returned @Jasper had already got him to admit that he was a white armband, but this time he was claiming that he is still a relatively new member to the group. None the less he was still lying to us before for about 10-15 minutes straight, after it was made clear to him what would happen if he lied. 

After @Roman admitted to being with the group we decided to see if we could get him to lure his other group members to GM. We had been hunting the white armbands for about a week now, after all these people were marking individuals like the Jackals do. People were getting them confused with us and we had been receiving complaints in game from people claiming my guys marked their friend and made him play some twisted hide and go seek. After RPing with @Roman for about 5-10 minutes more his group leaders arrived ( @yuthee and @ScarletRose). Upon their arrival to GM, they were initiated on and taken hostage as well. I would like to clarify at this point we had been rping with @Roman for about 20 minutes, so the claim that we killed him purely to avoid RPing is simply absurd, and I'm afraid caught insulting.

Upon the leaders arrival I made my demands very clear. I'm tired of people mistaking you guys for us, and I don't want this to go on any further. These twisted games you people play with lone survivors you catch are pathetic and despicable. I told them to drop the whole marking act and go up north if they want to play their games. Never did I say go to Russia once. I said go north, under the black mountains and terrorize people there, not here though. Furthermore, as the RP continued @Jasper and I started to get the vibe they weren't taking us very seriously. The RP that we were receiving from the two leaders was fairly stale and lifeless, almost as if they had better things to do and we really weren't all that. So I decided to use the execution rights that I had attained from @Roman lying to us for about 10-15 minutes straight. The claim that we didn't make it clear and unambiguous to him that he would be killed if he lied is silly. Also the claim that we killed him because we didn't want to roleplay with him is offensive. We had already been roleplaying with him for a decent while before the two leaders had showed up. If I didn't want to roleplay, why keep him there for so long and then sit there and wait for the two leaders to arrive and further RP with them as well. Continuing, after deciding to kill @Roman so maybe we could get some emotion out of @yuthee and @ScarletRose, I kindly asked him to walk forward, and riddled him with bullets as I said I would if he were caught lying. I don't see anything ruleplay or invalid about this execution, if anything I killed him to further RP so maybe his leaders would take our demands a bit more seriously.

Overall, the RP we received from the two leaders was fairly disappointing. There was almost no negotiations or counter offers that took place, it almost felt like they just wanted to get it over with and leave. Even when @Jasper decided to harm them it still felt fairly stale. It was almost like the execution of their comrade had no effect on them. Truly sad, as the RP could have been so much more and we could have had a fantastic story arc if we had gotten some interaction from the leaders.

 

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I want to ask what the lies were? If I understand correctly you say you gained execution rights when I initially lied about that I wasn't with the white armbands that I after some roleplay confessed to. So you killed me for something that I eventually told you the truth about. My character had just recently came back to the group after being away for a long time and didn't know anything about the claims you made regarding the groups recent activities and was therefor not lying. When you threatened that I would die I started to give you guys my characters truth. I would also ask if you have video evidence during this situation so we could get some clarity in your claims that I was lying during the whole situation.

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Upon our arrival, I only saw Roman as a complying hostage and had no reason to believe otherwise. I was taken aback OOC when he was killed. I personally fail to see how an execution would prompt us to further RP. We did not have a chance to bargain for his life or even react before he was gunned down. Yes, I was upset that you chose this course of action as I found it so unnecessary and believed it to be a rule break. Should you have beaten or tortured him, you would have received much more engagement from us. My character sees no point in reacting if someone is already dead. She holds little value for the lives of others and Gabriel had only been with them for a few days. IC, she was angry and remained fairly quiet to avoid suffering the same fate as this appeared to be the safest course of action. In terms of making a deal, I was told to shut up while the demands were dictated to me. I abandoned any attempts at negotiation as soon as a member of my group was executed since I lost hopes of this being even remotely successful considering what they had said and done.

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1 hour ago, ScarletRose said:

 I personally fail to see how an execution would prompt us to further RP. 

I'm sure you believe that. So let me explain how it could. 🙂

You two didn't seem to take it serious. Just seemed anxious to leave. Seemed like you didn't give a fuck period about the serious situation you were in and your boy talked in a monotone voice the whole time not really expressing any emotion or anything like that. You did much the same to be honest. We were all muted when Dewski decided to execute him so we were all in the dark on that decision but I agree with it. How are we supposed to get through to some people talking with borderline "i don't really care" attitudes? We executed your boy. 

You two didn't even REACT to that either. Honestly I passed you guys on the highway earlier and while I wanted to take you hostage as that's what I was patrolling the highway for, I decided against it to avoid another fearless emotionless situation. 

If I KILL ONE OF YOUR PEOPLE maybe, just maybe, one way it could prompt RP is reacting to it in some emotional capacity? Having some shred of a reaction or statement on it period in game? Not just "Oh I hope you were recording that" in discord. You spoke in DM's about how you are a great roleplayer but "need more to work with to give good RP" and yet you stand there not reacting to anything we did at all, not even when we LITERALLY executed one of your people? It's frankly offensive. 

1 hour ago, ScarletRose said:

We did not have a chance to bargain for his life or even react before he was gunned down. 

Yes. That is the point. We saw your IC attitudes of still having this weird aura and persona of "we have the upper hand still" and this air of "i'm still in charge here" so @Dew reacted accordingly. Your characters seemed the type that like to bargain and pride themselves on being silver tongued. Why on earth would Dew play into that? That's the POINT. To make you uncomfortable. To make you feel out of your element. Your failure to grasp this concept time and time again really rubs me the wrong way. 

1 hour ago, ScarletRose said:

Should you have beaten or tortured him, you would have received much more engagement from us. 

We did before you arrived. As I've stated numerous times, and as @Roman should have told you already, there was nearly 20 minutes of RP with him and him alone before you even came up to the compound. 

1 hour ago, ScarletRose said:

My character sees no point in reacting if someone is already dead. She holds little value for the lives of others and Gabriel had only been with them for a few days. IC, she was angry and remained fairly quiet to avoid suffering the same fate as this appeared to be the safest course of action. In terms of making a deal, I was told to shut up while the demands were dictated to me. I abandoned any attempts at negotiation as soon as a member of my group was executed since I lost hopes of this being even remotely successful considering what they had said and done.

Again why are you arguing the terms of an agreement that you later tried to make OOCLY to avoid getting "Constantly PVP'd on" as you put it? This isn't the topic of the report. The topic at hand is the validity of the execution of your friend, what took place before you arrived, and now where I feel your friend is being dishonest in his POV and is intentionally leaving out very crucial details (Which I pointed out in an above post) in an effort to make us look worse. 

1 hour ago, Roman said:

I want to ask what the lies were? 

Certaintly

1) "im not with the white armbands this is a wound"

2) "No I just wear it for the fashion i'm just some cook

3) "No I do not know them, I know that there are some white armband people out there that are evil but not my white armbands we're just normal people, not the ones you think of"

4) "I don't have any friends.." etc. 

I'm sure there's plenty more. I wish I recorded it to illustrate to you further what I'm talking about as it seems that most of the situation and what actually happened has gone blurred in certain spots for you. But as stated in my original POV I forgot to reactivate my shadow play before this situation occurred. Something i'm regretting a lot right now as I feel it could shed loooots of light on where my counter reports are coming from. 

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6 hours ago, Jasper said:

I'm sure there's plenty more. I wish I recorded it to illustrate to you further what I'm talking about as it seems that most of the situation and what actually happened has gone blurred in certain spots for you. But as stated in my original POV I forgot to reactivate my shadow play before this situation occurred. Something i'm regretting a lot right now as I feel it could shed loooots of light on where my counter reports are coming from. 

Do anyone else in your group have a recording from this? 

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I do not unfortunately

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I appreciate that we have very different views on this and I am glad that we can discuss it in a civil manner. I do ask that you do not quote me with ‘’ unless it’s my exact words. Most of this is irrelevant to the report, but I will answer your last post and then will not be responding unless asked to by staff.

Our styles of RP are very different. Our dynamic group rules dictate that that we avoid PvP, we don’t steal anything, and we don’t execute people. We uphold a high standard of RP etiquette, which means that we allow liberties to be taken to further the RP and don’t use kill rights granted by the rules unless absolutely necessary for fear of death. This makes for some amazing encounters. The vast majority of our hostages travel willingly with us after they are released, left with their guns should they chose to use them but not one has. It’s the give and take that makes a situation fun for BOTH sides.

There are a few points that I would like to discuss.

1)      Saying if you lie, we will kill you is understandable as an IC instruction but it worries me that this can be grounds for execution. Most of our interactions start of with lies because secrecy and deceit is a large part of what we do. I’ve escaped from a few encounters pretending to be a hostage of my own group and it’s been incredibly fun. If once I had crafted this elaborate ruse, someone says, lie again and I will kill you, this would leave me in quite the predicament. IC, I would most likely keep on lying for fear of being exposed. But now that this situation has occurred, I just don’t know anymore. It takes my mindset to a completely OOC level to avoid getting executed. To me, it’s almost like power gaming the injection of a truth serum. And is it NVFL if you lie after the request? Whose responsibility is it to prove what is a lie and what isn’t? How are you to know that someone’s character wasn’t killed shortly after a scenario and genuinely has no memory of events? We were initiated on later on the same day and given the same demand. We switched to text rp because of a fear of a repeat of this situation, so that we can have a log of our responses and avoid inadvertently slipping up. I really hope that this report will provide some clarification on this, because I think it will have very sad implications for RP if staff decide that such a broad request to not “lie or we will kill you” is valid grounds for execution.

 

2)      Gaining execution rights within the rules and then continuing to RP out a situation just to use them later for a completely different purpose is rule play in my opinion. If someone does not comply to a demand and you decide to kill them for it, then that is understandable although this should be as a last resort in my opinion. In this situation, while Roman may have lied to you, he was absolutely no threat to your life. He provided good RP and I am not sure why you would punish him because of our action. You admit that your motivation for killing him was to send a message to us, and not because he lied to you.

 

3)      Regarding negotiations, I had spoken to one of your friends OOC before you took us to arrange an IC meeting with you that same day. I knew who you were when you took Roman and I willingly ran to GM and surrendered because I wanted to roleplay with you. If I had no interest in RPing or wanted to leave, I would not have arrived in the first place. Sadly, the outcome would not have been too dissimilar if we decided not to show up I fear. At one point, I remember you giving us 4 minutes to arrive. I was worried about making it, but I even thought to myself, well they can’t actually kill him. I now wonder if you would have used your ‘execution rights’ for this purpose too.

 

Prior to Roman’s death, please tell me how I could have negotiated more as I was trying my best here. I tried to exchange frequencies, I tried to agree different locations, I told you I don’t want to step on your toes. I was taking this very seriously. After Roman’s death, I do not see why my character would continue her attempts at negotiation. You could not have made your point any clearer.

 

4)      Like I said in PM’s, we are a small group trying to provide the kind of hostile RP that we would like to receive. We are trying to find people of a similar mindset to engage in extended storylines with, hence why we keep people ‘under our control’ after we kidnap them. We are not trying to force our RP on anyone against their will. Every one of our toys participates voluntarily in future RP as it is incredibly important for us that both sides enjoy the interactions. IC and OOC, we are not fighters. We know that if a big group sets their sites on destroying us, they will be able to. We are outnumbered and outgunned. We are not going to come after you, and we are not looking to PvP. This is why I appealed to you on an OOC level to please help us come to some sort of arrangement that would prevent us being targeted and taken hostage by you over and over as it becomes pointless and unenjoyable. You dismissed my request because it doesn’t make sense to you, and although I am deeply disappointed by this, I can not stop you from coming after us if that is what you choose to do. I just wish that this community would show more understanding and consideration to each other, but this is not relevant to the report.

 

To the point, the report will hopefully answer the questions of:

Is ‘don’t lie to me or I will kill you’ a valid demand?

Who is responsible for proving what is a lie or not?

Is it rule play to kill someone for a reason other than what their execution rights were obtained for?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ScarletRose said:

I appreciate that we have very different views on this and I am glad that we can discuss it in a civil manner. I do ask that you do not quote me with ‘’ unless it’s my exact words. Most of this is irrelevant to the report, but I will answer your last post and then will not be responding unless asked to by staff.

Our styles of RP are very different. Our dynamic group rules dictate that that we avoid PvP, we don’t steal anything, and we don’t execute people. We uphold a high standard of RP etiquette, which means that we allow liberties to be taken to further the RP and don’t use kill rights granted by the rules unless absolutely necessary for fear of death. This makes for some amazing encounters. The vast majority of our hostages travel willingly with us after they are released, left with their guns should they chose to use them but not one has. It’s the give and take that makes a situation fun for BOTH sides.

There are a few points that I would like to discuss.

1)      Saying if you lie, we will kill you is understandable as an IC instruction but it worries me that this can be grounds for execution. Most of our interactions start of with lies because secrecy and deceit is a large part of what we do. I’ve escaped from a few encounters pretending to be a hostage of my own group and it’s been incredibly fun. If once I had crafted this elaborate ruse, someone says, lie again and I will kill you, this would leave me in quite the predicament. IC, I would most likely keep on lying for fear of being exposed. But now that this situation has occurred, I just don’t know anymore. It takes my mindset to a completely OOC level to avoid getting executed. To me, it’s almost like power gaming the injection of a truth serum. And is it NVFL if you lie after the request? Whose responsibility is it to prove what is a lie and what isn’t? How are you to know that someone’s character wasn’t killed shortly after a scenario and genuinely has no memory of events? We were initiated on later on the same day and given the same demand. We switched to text rp because of a fear of a repeat of this situation, so that we can have a log of our responses and avoid inadvertently slipping up. I really hope that this report will provide some clarification on this, because I think it will have very sad implications for RP if staff decide that such a broad request to not “lie or we will kill you” is valid grounds for execution.

 

2)      Gaining execution rights within the rules and then continuing to RP out a situation just to use them later for a completely different purpose is rule play in my opinion. If someone does not comply to a demand and you decide to kill them for it, then that is understandable although this should be as a last resort in my opinion. In this situation, while Roman may have lied to you, he was absolutely no threat to your life. He provided good RP and I am not sure why you would punish him because of our action. You admit that your motivation for killing him was to send a message to us, and not because he lied to you.

 

3)      Regarding negotiations, I had spoken to one of your friends OOC before you took us to arrange an IC meeting with you that same day. I knew who you were when you took Roman and I willingly ran to GM and surrendered because I wanted to roleplay with you. If I had no interest in RPing or wanted to leave, I would not have arrived in the first place. Sadly, the outcome would not have been too dissimilar if we decided not to show up I fear. At one point, I remember you giving us 4 minutes to arrive. I was worried about making it, but I even thought to myself, well they can’t actually kill him. I now wonder if you would have used your ‘execution rights’ for this purpose too.

 

Prior to Roman’s death, please tell me how I could have negotiated more as I was trying my best here. I tried to exchange frequencies, I tried to agree different locations, I told you I don’t want to step on your toes. I was taking this very seriously. After Roman’s death, I do not see why my character would continue her attempts at negotiation. You could not have made your point any clearer.

 

4)      Like I said in PM’s, we are a small group trying to provide the kind of hostile RP that we would like to receive. We are trying to find people of a similar mindset to engage in extended storylines with, hence why we keep people ‘under our control’ after we kidnap them. We are not trying to force our RP on anyone against their will. Every one of our toys participates voluntarily in future RP as it is incredibly important for us that both sides enjoy the interactions. IC and OOC, we are not fighters. We know that if a big group sets their sites on destroying us, they will be able to. We are outnumbered and outgunned. We are not going to come after you, and we are not looking to PvP. This is why I appealed to you on an OOC level to please help us come to some sort of arrangement that would prevent us being targeted and taken hostage by you over and over as it becomes pointless and unenjoyable. You dismissed my request because it doesn’t make sense to you, and although I am deeply disappointed by this, I can not stop you from coming after us if that is what you choose to do. I just wish that this community would show more understanding and consideration to each other, but this is not relevant to the report.

 

To the point, the report will hopefully answer the questions of:

Is ‘don’t lie to me or I will kill you’ a valid demand?

Who is responsible for proving what is a lie or not?

Is it rule play to kill someone for a reason other than what their execution rights were obtained for?

I'm not going to sit here and have an essay writing competition with you. Majority of the things you've said in these replies are irrelevant to the report.

Also please stop trying to say that we simply said "if you lie I will kill you" it was drilled into his head from the moment we took him hostage all the way until you 2 arrived. We knew already in game that you folk are deceiving based on conversations we had with "toys" of yours, and Eagle.

Since you seem to have a lot on your mind about this situation that isn't really relevant to the report, would you like to speak in discord? Also @Roman would you like to speak about this in discord as well?

Edited by Dew

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5 hours ago, ScarletRose said:

We uphold a high standard of RP etiquette, which means that we allow liberties to be taken to further the RP and don’t use kill rights granted by the rules unless absolutely necessary for fear of death. This makes for some amazing encounters. The vast majority of our hostages travel willingly with us after they are released, left with their guns should they chose to use them but not one has. It’s the give and take that makes a situation fun for BOTH sides.

That's your opinion and you are welcome to it. 

Likewise you cannot expect your own personal style and preference of RP and how RP flows to dictate everyone else around you and how they conduct their RP. That's just not how that works at all. 

I'll highlight what I disagree with you in your points here. This will also be my last post unless asked by staff or if another question that I feel I need to answer or acknowledge is posed.

5 hours ago, ScarletRose said:

1)      Saying if you lie, we will kill you is understandable as an IC instruction but it worries me that this can be grounds for execution. Most of our interactions start of with lies because secrecy and deceit is a large part of what we do. I’ve escaped from a few encounters pretending to be a hostage of my own group and it’s been incredibly fun. If once I had crafted this elaborate ruse, someone says, lie again and I will kill you, this would leave me in quite the predicament. IC, I would most likely keep on lying for fear of being exposed. But now that this situation has occurred, I just don’t know anymore. It takes my mindset to a completely OOC level to avoid getting executed. To me, it’s almost like power gaming the injection of a truth serum. And is it NVFL if you lie after the request? Whose responsibility is it to prove what is a lie and what isn’t? How are you to know that someone’s character wasn’t killed shortly after a scenario and genuinely has no memory of events? We were initiated on later on the same day and given the same demand. We switched to text rp because of a fear of a repeat of this situation, so that we can have a log of our responses and avoid inadvertently slipping up. I really hope that this report will provide some clarification on this, because I think it will have very sad implications for RP if staff decide that such a broad request to not “lie or we will kill you” is valid grounds for execution.

Which is fine but again you CANNOT expect everyone to cater to that and just let you win every single time expressly because it's what your character specializes in. Should I emote before a firefight that my character is 7'1 feet tall and incredibly muscular and therefore I should be able to subdue my captors without fear of them killing me? It's illogical right? 

Secondly yes that's the point. We were told you were quote "Slippery silver tongued fucks" in game and we treated you accordingly. No real wiggle room, no chance for you to try and get in our ears, simple demands really. It seems like you're more mad that you didn't get to WIN this situation and get to talk your way out of it and retain control over your characters fate more than anything. I've said it once and i'll say it again. That's. Not. How. This. Works. You don't get to just plot out every detail of your characters adventure and being angry about that is just bad practice and setting yourself up for disappointment. 

Thirdly, you've tried taking RP to an OOC level with us and i've explained that's not how I do things. I do not want to illogically let a group that we have every reason to hate and want dead to walk around and fuck us over or do whatever it is they're going to do simply because they reach out OOC and say "Hey  we know you have no reason to do this IC but it makes me mad if I lose OOC so can you just not?" it seems to me like you in fact don't mind getting OOC with your RP at all, so that's a weird card to pull. 

No. Just no. How is it truth serum to tell someone to not lie or face consequences? Do your parents inject you with truth serum if they ask you if you took the dog for a walk when there's piss all over the rug? No. That's such an illogical argument I can't be bothered with it to be honest. We asked him to be honest or suffer the set consequences. We had every reason to doubt him and thus we contacted our third party that knew all of you IC, and had him verify that he was indeed full of shit and lying. We acted accordingly. And nowhere did any of us say we thought of this as NVFL as far as I'm aware. So no there is no prejudice against you or precedent being set for NVFL you're kinda just fabricating this reality where we're doing that. Please don't do that as it really truly makes no sense to do so. 

A little while back I was told in a verdict that I should not let the quality of others RP effect my own. You should probably take the same advice and not neuter and kneecap your own RP quality for "fear of a repeat" or anything like that. 

5 hours ago, ScarletRose said:

2)      Gaining execution rights within the rules and then continuing to RP out a situation just to use them later for a completely different purpose is rule play in my opinion. If someone does not comply to a demand and you decide to kill them for it, then that is understandable although this should be as a last resort in my opinion. In this situation, while Roman may have lied to you, he was absolutely no threat to your life. He provided good RP and I am not sure why you would punish him because of our action. You admit that your motivation for killing him was to send a message to us, and not because he lied to you.

No. We used them for both the original reason, he lied, which I'm sure @Dew planned on killing him for regardless or maybe he planned on being lenient until he was fed up with the situation, who knows. Him being killed over you guys not taking it serious at all in his eyes was a secondary reason. Again this argument confuses me to the core. You're mad that we CONTINUED TO RP WITH HIM instead of gassing him on the spot? You're simultaneously disappointed in our RP and yet wish we RP'd less and just killed him right away? Your argument on this matter is riddled with holes i'm afraid. 

And I believe it was a last resort for @Dew. Again the holes in your argument begin to show again. You want it to be a last resort and simultaneously wish we did it sooner????? The logic loops here are really frustrating to read. Make up your mind. Did you want us to use them sooner or did you want them to be a last resort? 

Again he was not just punished for your actions. That was what apparently set @Dew off and made him settle on killing him I think. He was primarily killed for his own actions. 

No? I'm fairly certain we've all said many a time that he was killed for both. Stop trying to drive this narrative that it's for one or the other. It wasn't. B O T H. It was for BOTH

5 hours ago, ScarletRose said:

3)      Regarding negotiations, I had spoken to one of your friends OOC before you took us to arrange an IC meeting with you that same day. I knew who you were when you took Roman and I willingly ran to GM and surrendered because I wanted to roleplay with you. If I had no interest in RPing or wanted to leave, I would not have arrived in the first place. Sadly, the outcome would not have been too dissimilar if we decided not to show up I fear. At one point, I remember you giving us 4 minutes to arrive. I was worried about making it, but I even thought to myself, well they can’t actually kill him. I now wonder if you would have used your ‘execution rights’ for this purpose too.

Prior to Roman’s death, please tell me how I could have negotiated more as I was trying my best here. I tried to exchange frequencies, I tried to agree different locations, I told you I don’t want to step on your toes. I was taking this very seriously. After Roman’s death, I do not see why my character would continue her attempts at negotiation. You could not have made your point any clearer.

Correct but as i've tried so very hard to drive the point home for you, you simply cannot control and mandate the flow of RP. We did not actively hunt your man. Much the opposite. He rolled up on us after a situation occurred. Whether he was a white armband or not he was probably going to be taken there as we were jumpy due to having just killed a bunch of people. The white armband caught our attention and things went from there. The flow of RP changed. All of a sudden it went from an arranged meeting we might have to something that would be more organic. 

Pray tell, how did you know who we were simply because we TOOK @Roman? We never announced ourselves until after we had you hostage. We had Roman put down his radio long before you showed up and only gave it back so that he could double mic and tell you he needed assistance at GM. Kinda fishy if you ask me. 

Incorrect. The outcome would have been much different had you ICLY chosen to take the situation a bit more seriously. I can't speak for @Dew because as I stated it was his sole decision to threaten the man with death for lying originally as well as his sole decision to kill him when he did, but I think that if adequate fear and respect for the situation you found yourselves in was shown, the situation would likely have played out differently. Maybe @Roman still would have died, maybe not. Can't speak for @Dew as stated. 

If you never showed? Who knows. You're dealing in 'thought crime' here right now, so that's kinda lame. But no I think if anything, if you never showed, we likely would have beat him some more, probably scarred him, left him with a message for you, and then proceeded to hunt for your people afterwards. 

Negotiating maybe not the best term. Just act like you give a shit and recognize the dire situation you were in? Attitude, as I made exceedingly clear to you IC a number of times, goes a very long way with our characters. 

6 hours ago, ScarletRose said:

4)      Like I said in PM’s, we are a small group trying to provide the kind of hostile RP that we would like to receive. We are trying to find people of a similar mindset to engage in extended storylines with, hence why we keep people ‘under our control’ after we kidnap them. We are not trying to force our RP on anyone against their will. Every one of our toys participates voluntarily in future RP as it is incredibly important for us that both sides enjoy the interactions. IC and OOC, we are not fighters. We know that if a big group sets their sites on destroying us, they will be able to. We are outnumbered and outgunned. We are not going to come after you, and we are not looking to PvP. This is why I appealed to you on an OOC level to please help us come to some sort of arrangement that would prevent us being targeted and taken hostage by you over and over as it becomes pointless and unenjoyable. You dismissed my request because it doesn’t make sense to you, and although I am deeply disappointed by this, I can not stop you from coming after us if that is what you choose to do. I just wish that this community would show more understanding and consideration to each other, but this is not relevant to the report.

 

To the point, the report will hopefully answer the questions of:

Is ‘don’t lie to me or I will kill you’ a valid demand?

Who is responsible for proving what is a lie or not?

Is it rule play to kill someone for a reason other than what their execution rights were obtained for?

As i've said many a time. You cannot control the flow of RP nor IC mindsets. Your RP affected us in an IC way. We gave IC consequences for that. What's not to understand? 

So maybe, if you know that's the case, don't piss off a big group and then piss them off farther by not taking the situation seriously at all or showing any emotion aside from the attitude you carried that we all made clear we didn't much care for? 

Nor are we. I don't much care for PVP. I care for hostile RP that leads to firefights sometimes. And that's the circumstances you might find yourself in. It happens. YOU. CANNOT. CONTROL. THE. FLOW. OF. RP. That's not how this works. You cannot ICLY be bad guys and piss groups off and expect zero repercussions based on OOC grounds of "we dont wanna pvp" like that's not how that works. If it makes sense to go after you guys and you give us not only no reason to NOT go after you guys, but even MORE reason TO go after you, why in the ever loving hell wouldn't we? 

And no. You know what makes it pointless and unenjoyable? Getting angry OOC about it. Cutting off the quality of your own RP over it. Not letting people scar the people who go around scarring people. Not engaging or showing any emotion. Just being a shell in the game. That's what makes it pointless. You effectively made half the situation unfulfilling and pointless for us by doing all of the above there. 

And that's ok you can be. But don't let that effect your in game RP. Separate IC and OOC. 

Correct. 

And again, I'm going to once more clarify to you because I don't think i'm quite reaching you. We killed him for BOTH REASONS. Not one or the other. Both. B O T H. BOTH. @Dew probably wasn't letting him off the hook for free even after admitting to us and being caught by others in lies. 

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Alright, all PoVs have been posted now, please refrain from posting anything else unless asked by a staff member. Non-compliance will be met with points.

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I don't see the issue here, RP was provided, hostage was told not to lie and was executed after the takers found out he was lying.

/solved

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