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Roman

Combat Logging Rule

Should we remove the forced 30 min timer for the victims?  

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Its kinda ridicolous that technically after you provided Top notch Hostage RP even though you might wanted to go to bed already an hour prior you can get reported for Combat Logging after being released. Sure, reporting it when you as a hostage taker were happy with the hostage RP is a snitch move but that this is even possible shows that there is something wrong with this rule.

When the Hostage executes Revenge, Combat Timer 30 min. stays, otherwise you should be free to log.

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Lol the interpretation of this rule changes from minute to minute. This wasn't the interpretation when I was in staff, as there's no good reason to keep the hostages forcibly logged into the server if they've been utterly compliant and non-hostile. Honestly, re-word the rule slightly and you'd avoid this ambiguity.

Spoiler

4.5 Combat logging is leaving the server during or shortly after a hostile situation or when your character is still involved in active role play. After a hostile action has occurred where you or your party were the instigators, you may only log out from the game after a minimum of 30 minutes have passed since you broke the line of sight with others involved in that situation. This rule can be ignored if the other players give you OK to log out earlier.

 

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It is like that because it is much easier for people to understand, remember and follow a rule if it applies the same to everyone and at all times. If we keep adding those exceptions to rules depending on situation, side, etc it will get very complicated very fast because situations in game can get very complex.

Sure, it makes sense that someone who was taken hostage and was then released doesn't need to wait 30 minutes, but there are also other situations where CL rule should be enforced even when you are a victim or a defender, for example if you get initiated on and fight back. Or if a hostage is released and then his group goes after the hostage takers. I mean, there's so many different situations that can happen, giving hostages an outright "always ok to combat log after being released" is a loophole that I think will be taken advantage of.

So I think that one can suffer through those 30 minutes, and/or at worst case scenario ask hostage takers OOC for permission to log earlier. As simple as that.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Roland said:

It is like that because it is much easier for people to understand, remember and follow a rule if it applies the same to everyone and at all times. If we keep adding those exceptions to rules depending on situation, side, etc it will get very complicated very fast because situations in game can get very complex.

Sure, it makes sense that someone who was taken hostage and was then released doesn't need to wait 30 minutes, but there are also other situations where CL rule should be enforced even when you are a victim or a defender, for example if you get initiated on and fight back. Or if a hostage is released and then his group goes after the hostage takers. I mean, there's so many different situations that can happen, giving hostages an outright "always ok to combat log after being released" is a loophole that I think will be taken advantage of.

So I think that one can suffer through those 30 minutes, and/or at worst case scenario ask hostage takers OOC for permission to log earlier. As simple as that.

That doesn't make sense tho...why are you punishing the victims Rolle? We had the other CL rule for a long time and this was never an issue. You are enforcing a rule which FORCES people to stay on because of someones else's actions. It doesn't make sense. If you as a hostage use your rights then you are actively involved again, if you and your group go after them then you are actively involved. If I get robbed for all my gear and I'm not part of any group I still have to wait for 30 minutes even if I have no desire to take revenge. You don't see the issue here?

Please reconsider this Rolle.

Edited by Roman

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I don't see the issue here because when one is being released one can easily ask "// can I log out after this?" and I suspect majority of time this won't be a problem.

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3 hours ago, Ron said:

you should get a poll onto this thread @Roman

Diddeliydone.

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't see the issue here because when one is being released one can easily ask "// can I log out after this?" and I suspect majority of time this won't be a problem.

What if as someone who is initiated on you kill the sole attacker, you then have to wait 30 minutes to log. I had this issue where I was going to log out and was initiated on but i managed to kill said initiator, I then had to wait another 30 minutes to log out.

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't see the issue here because when one is being released one can easily ask "// can I log out after this?" and I suspect majority of time this won't be a problem.

There's been plenty of times where we've been robbed and something has come up after the situation is over without us knowing who they were. So I don't see the issue to not just reword the rule a bit differently so the victim doesn't have to stay on as a rule if they chose not to use their KOS rights and wants to log.

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5 minutes ago, Biiddy said:

What if as someone who is initiated on you kill the sole attacker, you then have to wait 30 minutes to log. I had this issue where I was going to log out and was initiated on but i managed to kill said initiator, I then had to wait another 30 minutes to log out.

Then it's justified, no? Since that initiator may have had friends who now have attacker rights on you.

 

5 minutes ago, Roman said:

There's been plenty of times where we've been robbed and something has come up after the situation is over without us knowing who they were. So I don't see the issue to not just reword the rule a bit differently so the victim doesn't have to stay on as a rule if they chose not to use their KOS rights and wants to log.

I understand, but now you're trying to push a risky rule change with exception open to abuse for a handful of edge cases where the change would be justified. In majority of cases the rule works fine, in those cases where it doesn't a OOC permission to log can be asked for. For the remaining small percentage of cases, it is not worth changing the rule, simplicity of the rule is more important than those.

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

Then it's justified, no? Since that initiator may have had friends who now have attacker rights on you.

 

If the attacker was apart of an approved group then yes fair enough but if you know for certain they are alone then I dont see the issue with logging out after, in my situation he was alone but I still had to wait around 30 minutes for nothing to happen.  

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Just now, Roland said:

I understand, but now you're trying to push a risky rule change with exception open to abuse for a handful of edge cases where the change would be justified. In majority of cases the rule works fine, in those cases where it doesn't a OOC permission to log can be asked for. For the remaining small percentage of cases, it is not worth changing the rule, simplicity of the rule is more important than those.

Not sure where all these abuses came from all the suddenly since the last version of the rule were even simpler and worked fine. Combat Rule should not punish the victims, that doesn't make sense and you can't agree with that it makes sense. Why should I get banned because I don't want to use my revenge rights? That's like forcing people to stay on a extra 30 min every time they've met someone and roleplayed with them. Don't you think it's very odd that you would ban the victim for someone else's actions???

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I agree with this a 100% and even made a thread about it a while back:

This part of the rule has never really been enforced and it makes no sense for a complying hostage to have to wait their 30 after breaking line of sight. The whole point of the rule is to give people a chance to retaliate after having been subjected to a hostile action, why would someone who no one has kill rights on have to wait for their "combat log" timer?

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That cant be right. It would only be combat logging if you leave before the timer when you have KOS rights against you.

As a victim you gain KOS and if you complied the attacker would not have KOS on you meaning logging out is fine aslong as you dont use the rights. Thats how it was in mod. Makes no sense waiting around if you dont intend to use rights.

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If we are keeping this rule in place so there are no loopholes and difference might i suggest we go back to a 15 minute CL timer as it was pre standalone? Im sure we can all agree it would be better at 15 than waiting half an hour. 

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I think it's fine how it is. You can just ask for permission to log. Only rarely people will deny it. I've never been denied permission to log in my whole 4 years on the servers.
People are usually understanding that others can't commit to staying an extra 30 minutes and therefore will give them permission.

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1 minute ago, Phoenix said:

I think it's fine how it is. You can just ask for permission to log. Only rarely people will deny it. I've never been denied permission to log in my whole 4 years on the servers.
People are usually understanding that others can't commit to staying an extra 30 minutes and therefore will give them permission.

But why having that rule for hostages in the first place? Just doesn't make sense to me. Why ask permission when nobody has kos-rights. 

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Just now, Lyca said:

But why having that rule for hostages in the first place? Just doesn't make sense to me. Why ask permission when nobody has kos-rights. 

Because it should be the same treatment for everyone. We can't just constantly make 2 different rules for 2 different scenarios. It'll just be more confusing for new players.
Just ask for permission to log or let them know during the situation you need to get going at some point and as I said, 99% of the time they will be okay with you logging out after the situation is over.

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3 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

Because it should be the same treatment for everyone. We can't just constantly make 2 different rules for 2 different scenarios. It'll just be more confusing for new players.
Just ask for permission to log or let them know during the situation you need to get going at some point and as I said, 99% of the time they will be okay with you logging out after the situation is over.

Same treatment? But the hostages didn't instigate the whole thing. We had it for a long time like that, that the hostages where fine and new player were totally fine with it. 😄 

Besides when you have to go in an hour and you get captured for like 40-50 minutes... I can't do RL stuff cause I am bound to not log, even though nobody has kos rights. How is that right. 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

I understand, but now you're trying to push a risky rule change with exception open to abuse for a handful of edge cases where the change would be justified. In majority of cases the rule works fine, in those cases where it doesn't a OOC permission to log can be asked for. For the remaining small percentage of cases, it is not worth changing the rule, simplicity of the rule is more important than those.

Maybe I am stupid or something, but what abuse?

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25 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

Because it should be the same treatment for everyone. We can't just constantly make 2 different rules for 2 different scenarios. It'll just be more confusing for new players.
Just ask for permission to log or let them know during the situation you need to get going at some point and as I said, 99% of the time they will be okay with you logging out after the situation is over.

But it is the same scenario right? It is just that one party is the aggressor and the other one the defendant. It make no sense to force the non-aggressive party to stick around for an additional 30 minutes to avoid being banned for someone else aggression.  It feels like the rule is just punishing the victim for no real reason or benefit to the RP.  Forcing the victim of aggression to stay an additional 30 minutes on the server IS treating people different, since they haven't committed a hostile act.

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I do understand after taken hostage and being released you may get again in some RP. But I find the 30minute wait a bit too long. Why not shorten it? 

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1 hour ago, Lyca said:

Maybe I am stupid or something, but what abuse?

I don't know yet, but allowing all hostages to combat log is sure going to spark peoples creativity about how to use it to their advantage. So I'd rather not deal with that.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't know yet, but allowing all hostages to combat log is sure going to spark peoples creativity about how to use it to their advantage. So I'd rather not deal with that.

But it wasn't abused in the past when it was still in the rules.

I just can't see a reason when I didn't do anything and its not my fault that someone initiated on me I have to wait for 30 minutes. Even when I have IRL stuff to do even. I just don't see when nobody has kos-rights on me, I am not in combat, why would I need to wait? 

Edited by Lyca

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8 minutes ago, Lyca said:

But it wasn't abused in the past when it was still in the rules.

I just can't see a reason when I didn't do anything and its not my fault that someone initiated on me I have to wait for 30 minutes. Even when I have IRL stuff to do even. I just don't see when nobody has kos-rights on me, I am not in combat, why would I need to wait? 

I already explained it above. The reason is to keep rules simple and universal for everyone and not complicate them any more than they need to be, for example by adding exceptions for various situations. If you wish to log out earlier, ask for OOC permission.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Roland said:

I already explained it above. The reason is to keep rules simple and universal for everyone and not complicate them any more than they need to be, for example by adding exceptions for various situations. If you wish to log out earlier, ask for OOC permission.

Your team recently added a rule, which I can only assume was approved by you, to our ruleset regarding the killing of compliant hostages. It adds the following:

Spoiler

 

4.6 If you successfully capture a player through a hostile action and then take him into your custody, he is now considered your hostage. You must do everything in your power to keep your hostages alive and in a relatively good health. That includes protecting them from external threats like zombies and leaving them with a realistic chance of survival when they are released. A character that is taken hostage may be executed once for a hostile incident that happened in the past where the hostage was personally responsible for, or participated in a death of your ally. In any other circumstances, hostages may only be executed in the following scenarios:

  • Approved group of the hostage refuses to negotiate or opens fire on hostage takers.

This adds a whole host of complications in-game, as you must figure out whether or not your hostage is a member of an approved group, verify that you took fire from a member of their approved group and not somebody they are running dynamic with, as well as being generally harmful to RP. It was an unnecessary change, as the same end could be achieved by actually roleplaying with your enemy, yet it was still implemented.

All that's proposed in this thread is slightly changing the wording of a rule. If you can add in that whole host of unnecessary complications, a slight change to a long-standing rule that most people already followed anyway shouldn't rock the boat too much.

Edited by Elmo

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1 hour ago, Phoenix said:

Because it should be the same treatment for everyone. We can't just constantly make 2 different rules for 2 different scenarios. It'll just be more confusing for new players.
Just ask for permission to log or let them know during the situation you need to get going at some point and as I said, 99% of the time they will be okay with you logging out after the situation is over.

Do you mean like we have two different kill rules for defenders and attackers? 😉 In my opinion the subjects of a hostile action should have more rights since they dont choose to get in to the situation. Also it makes little sense for them to have to wait since they havent done anything. I get the whole point that the hostage takers might still want some RP after breaking line of sight but in that case you should also have a timer always when finishing roleplay with someone because they too might still want to roleplay with you after you leave. What im getting at is that there is no reason for the rule to extend to the hostages and it benefits no one.

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't know yet, but allowing all hostages to combat log is sure going to spark peoples creativity about how to use it to their advantage. So I'd rather not deal with that.

Hostages log out after leaving the situation all the time and as far as i recall we havent enforced the rule and punished someone for it except for that one time when I posted the thread I linked and even then it was a more complicated situation.

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