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CamoRP

Breaking & Entering

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This question is directed at the staff team, however I do not mind if other community members pitch in some of their thoughts or opinions on the matter.

As of right now, there's is no rules stating that I have explicit permission to shoot someone for stealing, without first initiating on them, but if they comply I am not allowed to execute them either. Which then places me in an awkward position that makes no logical sense to me. 

I have been repeatedly told by various staff members, shooting (KOS) or executing someone (hostage) for stealing hasn't been allowed since the recent rule changes.

Here's the questions, this is regarding settlements/bases. --- If you catch someone in the act of breaking into your base, or they have already broken-in and entered without your permission; is this considered a hostile action? I would consider it so. Now, this hostile action they committed, will it grant the base-owners kill rights? I would think no initiation is required to be given, and the base-owner may just straight up shoot the bastard?

I ask these questions because I have been thinking up scenarios in my head, where it may lead to complications if you use place logic aside, and follow the current rule-set. 

For example, if the base owner chooses to take the least-violent action towards the offender. He would walk up to them, have them put their hands up, and interrogate them for why they are trespassing. So after the base-owner strips them of their weapons, radio, etc. --- The base-owner begins hostile roleplay with the offender, and  may even let them go, after the base-owner retrieves what was stolen. But here's my problem... The offender was taken hostage, and now they have kill rights on the base-owner. If the base-owner were to release them, they would be taking a risk bigger risk than the intruder was initially. Because now the hostage can just KOS the base-owner shortly later when after the base-owner lets their guard down, or execute the base-owner after being taken hostage a few days later, due to rules stating past-experiences regarding hostage-taking is a valid reason now allowed for execution.

So here's why I think we should be allowed to KOS intruders and execute any hostages involved.

  1.  The offender  intends to break-in and commit a hostile action to cause harm to the base-owner, and/or their home and supplies.
  2.  If the base-owner chooses to take least-violent route first, and takes the offender hostage, it now simply places risk on the base-owner for getting shot while initiating. Thus instantly losing the advantage of defending yourself (base-owner) from cover.
  3.  If the base-owner chooses to interrogate them, and let them go, the offender now will forever remember the location of your base (in-character) so they may now return with their friends later on, or possibly sooner, by KOSing the base-owner within the hour of the initial HostileRP.

 

Now, I think KOSing intruders and thieves, shouldn't be taken lightly. It needs to be clear and unambiguous that the offender realizes they are taking the risk breaking into a base. I want to clarify I am speaking of settlements/bases owned by a group of player(s). Not supplies stashed away in the woods or walls incompletely built in a barn somewhere.These instances should be handled differently. Just like the past rules. You weren't allowed to just snipe someone from 500m away. You had to be there to tell them to fuck off, or just shoot them.

For example, I think if an offender walking through the woods, and finds a tent or car in the woods, all alone with supplies. This should be dealt as any other "loot" found in the world. OOC it is obvious someone owns it. But IC it could just be abandoned. This is where an initiation should be required. 

 

 

Here's some sources I am referencing from the past (0.62) where Roland stated we could just shoot people for stealing, etc. I am aware the rules have changed a lot since then, and I wanted some clarification.

On 3/10/2018 at 12:21 PM, Roland said:

Any time someone steals anything from you when you are around, you can kill them. Stealing is considered a hostile action, just as if someone initiated on you.

So, when someone steals from you on purpose, with knowledge that the item is someone elses and the owner is around, you can kill. You can also initiate etc if you want to RP of course :) 

However it doesn't work when there can be doubt that the person stealing is not doing it on purpose. For example if you are away from your tents, nobody is around and someone stumbles upon them and takes something and you kill them from 200m with a sniper because "they are stealing from you". Then you can only initiate, or just ask the person nicely to put back the things because the tents are yours..

 

 

Edited by CamoRP

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16 minutes ago, CamoRP said:

So here's why I think we should be allowed to KOS intruders and execute any hostages involved.

  1.  The offender  intends to break-in and commit a hostile action to cause harm to the base-owner, and/or their home and supplies.
  2.  If the base-owner chooses to take least-violent route first, and takes the offender hostage, it now simply places risk on the base-owner for getting shot while initiating. Thus instantly losing the advantage of defending yourself (base-owner) from cover.
  3.  If the base-owner chooses to interrogate them, and let them go, the offender now will forever remember the location of your base (in-character) so they may now return with their friends later on, or possibly sooner, by KOSing the base-owner within the hour of the initial HostileRP.

 

 

I'm going to politely disagree, but only with explaining why and what I think the best alternative is. 

I think there is a huge difference between committing a hostile action against a player for his belongings, and cracking something open to try and find supplies. The big difference here is how personal the "attack" is. It's not very personal to target a potential camp or stash.

Now, i'm not saying this should be risk free. Personally, I udnerstood it that the knowledge you are committing a theft is key. I.e.: lets say we fist fight but i steal your bag when you're down. You've active stolen a bag from me, it is personal. If somebody is cracking into your stash, and you go "stop, hey this is my stash" and he continues, this is where it becomes personal. The person now has knowledge, for 100%, he is committing a theft against another person who is alive and well. If they don't stop, this is where you would be able to gas them without initiating. 

My personal take, i disagree with your methodology, but if somebody was knowingly stealing from me personally, once i've told him he's stealing i'd gas him if he didn't stop. 

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2 minutes ago, Para said:

I'm going to politely disagree, but only with explaining why and what I think the best alternative is. 

I think there is a huge difference between committing a hostile action against a player for his belongings, and cracking something open to try and find supplies. The big difference here is how personal the "attack" is. It's not very personal to target a potential camp or stash.

Now, i'm not saying this should be risk free. Personally, I udnerstood it that the knowledge you are committing a theft is key. I.e.: lets say we fist fight but i steal your bag when you're down. You've active stolen a bag from me, it is personal. If somebody is cracking into your stash, and you go "stop, hey this is my stash" and he continues, this is where it becomes personal. The person now has knowledge, for 100%, he is committing a theft against another person who is alive and well. If they don't stop, this is where you would be able to gas them without initiating. 

My personal take, i disagree with your methodology, but if somebody was knowingly stealing from me personally, once i've told him he's stealing i'd gas him if he didn't stop. 

If I woke up after a friendly brawl with a stranger, get knocked out, then wake up with the strange scrounging through my things, I would be angrily asking them what the fuck they are doing. But if I wake up, and see them 200m away, running down the road from me, and clearly see he has my bag, or whatever. I am gonna pull out whatever other weapon I have, and chase after the bastard or shoot'em right then in there.

The purpose of this thread, is to solely focus on settlements, not necessarily petty thievery, of stashes or a car in the woods. I am explicitly speaking on players who placed time and effort into building a settlement, and they catch some asshat breaking in. Sometimes, it's better to shoot first, and ask questions later. 

Just wanted to clarify with you, I agree with the "how personal the 'attack' is" concept. But I feel it should be different when it comes to settlements. Right now there's nothing protecting settlements, other than straight up initiations, that will just lead to nothing but letting the hostage go after, because the current rule-set, doesn't allow you to kill a complying hostage for breaking into your home.

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2 minutes ago, CamoRP said:

If I woke up after a friendly brawl with a stranger, get knocked out, then wake up with the strange scrounging through my things, I would be angrily asking them what the fuck they are doing. But if I wake up, and see them 200m away, running down the road from me, and clearly see he has my bag, or whatever. I am gonna pull out whatever other weapon I have, and chase after the bastard or shoot'em right then in there.

The purpose of this thread, is to solely focus on settlements, not necessarily petty thievery, of stashes or a car in the woods. I am explicitly speaking on players who placed time and effort into building a settlement, and they catch some asshat breaking in. Sometimes, it's better to shoot first, and ask questions later. 

Just wanted to clarify with you, I agree with the "how personal the 'attack' is" concept. But I feel it should be different when it comes to settlements. Right now there's nothing protecting settlements, other than straight up initiations, that will just lead to nothing but letting the hostage go after, because the current rule-set, doesn't allow you to kill a complying hostage for breaking into your home.

Paragraph 1: I'd gas him too, i mis-stated what I meant. I was saying if he steals my shit and knows it's mine he's got no room to cry if he gets blasted for it.

Paragraph 2: I misunderstood then in that case,

Paragraph 3: If we're going to bring back settlement rights then they need to be an officially documented thing on the forums, something that persists for a long time and related to official groups IMO to rain some control on them. I could see, with rigid control, the props of being able to shoot people breaking into your settlement. 

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3 minutes ago, Para said:

Paragraph 1: I'd gas him too, i mis-stated what I meant. I was saying if he steals my shit and knows it's mine he's got no room to cry if he gets blasted for it.

Paragraph 2: I misunderstood then in that case,

Paragraph 3: If we're going to bring back settlement rights then they need to be an officially documented thing on the forums, something that persists for a long time and related to official groups IMO to rain some control on them. I could see, with rigid control, the props of being able to shoot people breaking into your settlement. 

Okay, glad we're in agreement. Haha.

I think you misunderstood because I stated my case rather poorly at the beginning of the thread. I did state stealing, etc, and even cited sources of past threads. But my primary focus is settlements, anything else should be "what makes RP sense".

As for settlements rights, etc... I unfortunately didn't join the server until a month or so prior to those rules being remove, and never had the chance to experience how they worked. I personally feel like settlements don't need to be owned by official groups.  But that's coming from a person who's bias against being involved in official groups. I prefer to just build a few walls in-town around a general store, and call it my home. If someone intruders or shoplifts they get chased down, and possibly even shot after politely warned.

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Bumping the thread since it's been about 24 hours, still awaiting a staff member's response.

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Bumping this thread again, hoping I will get an answer from the staff team. Please. Thank you!

As stated at the beginning this thread was made to get some answers from staff, not just the community. I can't strictly rely on what community members say, no offense. 

From my understanding, from what I am told from different community members,  if someone jumps  into your car or breaking in to your base, or even stealing from you (such as after a brawl and you get knocked out), it grants you the right to KOS them, within roleplay reason (if it's blatantly clear), as it's considered a hostile act.

Edited by CamoRP

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I think I remember a long time ago when V3S's were around, that if you caught someone knowingly stealing your vehicle it's considered a hostile act, but that was a long time ago.

Your base is "your base", the same as your items. It's property and if property is stolen from you, you should be able to get it back. I'd wait for staff, though.

 

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9 minutes ago, Shortround said:

I think I remember a long time ago when V3S's were around, that if you caught someone knowingly stealing your vehicle it's considered a hostile act, but that was a long time ago.

Your base is "your base", the same as your items. It's property and if property is stolen from you, you should be able to get it back. I'd wait for staff, though.

 

That's exactly how I have ALWAYS interpreted it, but with all the new rules, etc. I am trying to play it safe.

Especially since I am considering getting back into the MOBILE trading business. People will try to take shit from my car or take my car, and I need to know if I can just gat them down then in there, if they clearly won't cooperate with returning my stolen property.

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I think this can be dangerous... Someone could just accidentally stumble on your things and then 'look' at them.. I do it all the time, I'm curious. Do I ever take anything? No.. Please tell me why initiating on someone should be disregarded, in that case (?)  Sure, if you believe someone IS stealing from you, it makes role-play sense for you to pull up your gun and say 'Hey buddy I'm going to search you' under the pretense you think he's taken something..  but it's kind of ridiculous to put up something like this and not consider how it could go absolutely wrong. 

 

To be fair, I've been spending time in Novaya.. There are wooden stashes everywhere.. and I look at all of them, again, cus they are just there.. and I'm a weird foraging type person.

So, you're saying you want to be able to KoS people in that sense, even if it only takes barely 20 seconds to say 'Oi buddy hands up, I'm searching you'

 

Edited by Bounty

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2 hours ago, Bounty said:

I think this can be dangerous... Someone could just accidentally stumble on your things and then 'look' at them.. I do it all the time, I'm curious. Do I ever take anything? No.. Please tell me why initiating on someone should be disregarded, in that case (?)  Sure, if you believe someone IS stealing from you, it makes role-play sense for you to pull up your gun and say 'Hey buddy I'm going to search you' under the pretense you think he's taken something..  but it's kind of ridiculous to put up something like this and not consider how it could go absolutely wrong. 

 

To be fair, I've been spending time in Novaya.. There are wooden stashes everywhere.. and I look at all of them, again, cus they are just there.. and I'm a weird foraging type person.

So, you're saying you want to be able to KoS people in that sense, even if it only takes barely 20 seconds to say 'Oi buddy hands up, I'm searching you'

 

It needs to be declared what is considered a hostile action.

If you need to eat/drink, and you're double carrying, so you put your gun on the ground for a second, and some random hobo comes by grabs your gun and book it. I would think you'd be obligated to shoot them.

Because they stole from you, they're evading you, and now they're armed with a deadly weapon if you try to initiate/stop them.

If breaking into someone's settlement or car-jacking someone's car, isn't a reasonable to kill someone on the spot, I don't what would be...

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32 minutes ago, CamoRP said:

It needs to be declared what is considered a hostile action.

If you need to eat/drink, and you're double carrying, so you put your gun on the ground for a second, and some random hobo comes by grabs your gun and book it. I would think you'd be obligated to shoot them.

Because they stole from you, they're evading you, and now they're armed with a deadly weapon if you try to initiate/stop them.

If breaking into someone's settlement or car-jacking someone's car, isn't a reasonable to kill someone on the spot, I don't what would be...

I dunno, I'd still say You initiate.. We're talking about the difference between people or things.. If someone threatens your life, to me that's hostile action enough, just as the rules are already laid out.. If someone steals 'things' I think that should always require a 'give that back or you're dead'... Hostility to me is value on your life alone, not items that can be replaced and so I don't think you should ever immediately get KoS rights for anything that isn't directly harmful to your person.  Especially considering the possibility of wrongful death..... 

 

I mean, I get what you're saying here... but this is about role-play... honestly.

Edited by Bounty

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If we had settlement rules again I would be agree you with @CamoRP. But having a base has consequences and that being people riding the base it comes with it anywhere. I would annoyed  someone if I got shot for being in a base because the person thought I was raiding but I could just be looking for waiting for said person to come back.

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