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AndreyQ

Bring back KOS rights.

KOS Rights?  

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I think it is time we seriously consider switching back to the old KOS rights or at least a modified version of what we used to have. The current rules are confusing to anyone and do more harm than good. Having 2 set of kos rights not only means that you have to ask yourself each situation which rights you have, defense/kill, how long do they last, how do they apply to my friends etc. but their wording and how they function bring tons of grey areas and at times make no sense.

Multiple times have I found myself in situations in which I had no idea how the rules apply. Even when I asked staff I got mixed responses leading myself into even more confusion. I think we need better rules when it comes to kos rights. Those are the most important rules on the server and they happen to be the most confusing ones as well.

So instead of this:

Quote
  • 4.2 If you are attacked by other players and subjected to a hostile action you are allowed to defend yourself by gaining  DEFENSE RIGHTS on the attackers. Defense rights allow you to kill other players for 2 hours or until your character dies. Defense rights can be shared with everyone that you recently role played with as well as all your group members, if you are a part of an approved group.
  • 4.3 If you are attacking other players and subjected to a hostile action you are allowed to defend yourself by gaining  KILL RIGHTS on the defenders. Kill rights allow you to kill other players for 1 hour or until your character dies. Kill rights can be only be shared with your approved group members. If you are not a part of an approved group, kill rights can not be shared and only apply for your character.
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I propose just one rule:

Quote
  • 4.2 You are allowed to kill other players if you gain KOS RIGHTS. You can gain kos rights if you are attacked by other players and subjected to a hostile action or if you are attacking someone and they do not comply within a reasonable timeframe. KOS rights can be shared with anyone that you recently roleplayed with(or anyone that you are travelling with for a better dynamic group definition) as well as all your group members if you are a part of an approved group.
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So for the love of god please change the current kill/defense rights. ?

EDIT: The wording can differ, it doesn't have to be this exact wording.

Edited by AndreyQ

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I agree. Much more simpler and easier to understand, especially towards newcomers

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The KOS rule right now is so up in the air staff can literal make something up they see fit the bill and boom you're banned.
The rule needs to be simple and easy to follow similar to this and not just what GM's opinion fits the bill.

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You’re an amazing community member Andrey Q,000. Doing amazing work here. I would love to see these great rules return to our shores safely. Maybe it wouldn’t make things so confusing for GMs and they could actually do some reports!

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They won't be brought back because they only make killing other players easier, promoting PvP mentality and at the same time they do not promote creating groups, as one can just run around dynamic with friends. Two things that are very important to a role play community.

 

1 hour ago, AndreyQ said:

Having 2 set of kos rights not only means that you have to ask yourself each situation which rights you have, defense/kill, how long do they last, how do they apply to my friends etc.

That's very much intended, to require people to think and reflect how and when they can kill other player. Not to reduce it to mindless "quickly, get KoS rights so I can spray and pray everything that moves".

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5 minutes ago, Roland said:

They won't be brought back because they only make killing other players easier, promoting PvP mentality and at the same time they do not promote creating groups, as one can just run around dynamic with friends. Two things that are very important to a role play community.

The KOS rights worked that way for years and didn't stop anyone from making groups, why would it stop people now?

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3 minutes ago, Roland said:

They won't be brought back because they only make killing other players easier, promoting PvP mentality and at the same time they do not promote creating groups, as one can just run around dynamic with friends. Two things that are very important to a role play community.

Then I must ask what is the difference from a dynamic and an unofficial group?

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5 minutes ago, Roland said:

They won't be brought back because they only make killing other players easier, promoting PvP mentality and at the same time they do not promote creating groups, as one can just run around dynamic with friends. Two things that are very important to a role play community.

How are they promoting PVP compared to the current rules? If people want to PVP they will PVP regardless of what rules are in place.

I understand the wish for official groups but official groups were a thing before when this rule was in place. Official groups would still offer global KOS rights regardless if people are online/offline, while dynamics would have to be online and stay rather close to one another. So people would still get an advantage from creating official groups.

It is very important for a community to have clear rules. A lot of people can't wrap their head around the current ones. They just don't work properly.

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The issue with the old rules was the way kill rights worked for attackers and dynamics. It led to a lot of random 'assassination' killings.

 

Also, not KOS. Kill Rights, or Defense Rights. Did it used to be called Kill On Sight rights?

5 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Then I must ask what is the difference from a dynamic and an unofficial group?

 

Currently: If you are in a dynamic and initiate on someone, only the people actively and showing they are initiating get 'kill rights'. If you are in a group, ALL members get kill rights if the defenders don't comply.

 

However, for defense rights dynamics are able to share them, even without being in a group. Thats the current difference, with the rules as they are.

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3 minutes ago, Rover said:

The issue with the old rules was the way kill rights worked for attackers and dynamics. It led to a lot of random 'assassination' killings.

 

Also, not KOS. Kill Rights, or Defense Rights. Did it used to be called Kill On Sight rights?

No KOS rights are just referred to rights that people have gained from fighting but it's kill rights for short.
These random assassinations still happen I have witnessed them and been a victim to one.

3 minutes ago, Rover said:

The issue with the old rules was the way kill rights worked for attackers and dynamics. It led to a lot of random 'assassination' killings.

 

Also, not KOS. Kill Rights, or Defense Rights. Did it used to be called Kill On Sight rights?

 

Currently: If you are in a dynamic and initiate on someone, only the people actively and showing they are initiating get 'kill rights'. If you are in a group, ALL members get kill rights if the defenders don't comply.

 

However, for defense rights dynamics are able to share them, even without being in a group. Thats the current difference, with the rules as they are.


Also no that is incorrect you need to be approved.

 Defense rights can be shared with everyone that you recently role played with as well as all your group members, if you are a part of an approved group.

Edited by Eagle

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1 minute ago, AndreyQ said:

How are they promoting PVP compared to the current rules? If people want to PVP they will PVP regardless of what rules are in place.

They promote PvP by making things so simple one does not have to think or reflect about getting or using those rights, you just get them and kill. It makes it very easy to kill others as one now shares those rights with even more people.

 

2 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

I understand the wish for official groups but official groups were a thing before when this rule was in place. Official groups would still offer global KOS rights regardless if people are online/offline, while dynamics would have to be online and stay rather close to one another. So people would still get an advantage from creating official groups.

Groups were a thing before, but their number and incentive to create them besides a pretty tag were not there. Also sharing the rights offline is not quite the same advantage. And we're not gonna implement distance restrictions since there's no way to enforce them.

 

3 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

It is very important for a community to have clear rules. A lot of people can't wrap their head around the current ones. They just don't work properly.

They are very easy to understand and apply clearly to large majority of hostile situations. There are some edge cases that get tricky, but those are so rare that the current state is good enough for me and certainly not a large enough factor to change back to rules that make killing other players so easy.

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Just now, Rover said:

The issue with the old rules was the way kill rights worked for attackers and dynamics. It led to a lot of random 'assassination' killings.

Which is still happening today but even more than it used to. Everyone that you "recently" roleplayed with can get defense rights if you get attacked. Anyone can claim that they recently roleplayed with someone. In the old rules, people had to be at least 500 meters away, which was limiting some possibility of that happening.

3 minutes ago, Rover said:

Did it used to be called Kill On Sight rights?

It used to be kos rights, I think.

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8 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Then I must ask what is the difference from a dynamic and an unofficial group?

I don't know, you tell me. None of these concepts exist on DayZRP. We have official groups and ABOP (A Bunch of People) ? 

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3 minutes ago, Eagle said:

No KOS rights are just referred to rights that people have gained from fighting but it's kill rights for short.
These random assassinations still happen I have witnessed them and been a victim to one.

Also no that is incorrect you need to be approved.

 Defense rights can be shared with everyone that you recently role played with as well as all your group members, if you are a part of an approved group.

 Defense rights can be shared with everyone that you recently role played with as well as all your group members, if you are a part of an approved group.

The caveat of 'part of an approved group' is not a reference towards dynamics, its a reference towards unapproved large groups that give themselves name and have not been approved. You do not need to be in a group to share defense rights with your dynamic.

 

EDIT: Dynamic being an old term to mean 'people you recently roleplayed with.'

Edited by Rover

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

I don't know, you tell me. None of these concepts exist on DayZRP. We have official groups and ABOP (A Bunch of People) ? 

Oof.
I don't know myself mainly for rights since you have to be approved to share rights amongst everyone when they attack, I can't just log in and gas since my group isn't approved but yet approved groups can and gas me whenever. ?
I need help, please.
 

2 hours ago, Rover said:

 Defense rights can be shared with everyone that you recently role played with as well as all your group members, if you are a part of an approved group.

The caveat of 'part of an approved group' is not a reference towards dynamics, its a reference towards unapproved large groups that give themselves name and have not been approved. You do not need to be in a group to share defense rights with your dynamic.

 

EDIT: Dynamic being an old term to mean 'people you recently roleplayed with.'

The question seems to have flown over your head completely.

Edited by Eagle

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

They promote PvP by making things so simple one does not have to think or reflect about getting or using those rights, you just get them and kill. It makes it very easy to kill others as one now shares those rights with even more people.

I mean things should be simple. I can't sit for 5 minutes to think if I have kill rights on a person because that person won't wait for me to think about it. As the current rules work it makes people think OOCly while disregarding any sort of logical decision.

>Friend: "Lets rob this person."
>Me: "Ok."
>Friend: "Puts your hands up."
>Friend is not a good shot. Person runs away.
>Friend: "Hey why didn't you shoot."
>Me: "Because I didn't say the magic words while pointing my weapon at him so God won't let me shoot him."

>Me gets initiated on.
>Only one initiates, while the other is pointing his weapon at me without saying a word.
>I kill both like any reasonable person. But wait, only one initiated so I gain kill rights only on him as he is the only person that committed a hostile act. So ups, I am banned now.

 

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

They are very easy to understand and apply clearly to large majority of hostile situations.

Unfortunately, they are not. A lot of people find them confusing. Like most(if not all) the people I have talked to since I came back.

 

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

And we're not gonna implement distance restrictions since there's no way to enforce them.

Which is not what I was suggesting. The way dynamics work right now pushes people more towards PVP actually. The statement "recently roleplayed with" is quite broad. If I talk to someone in Kabanino and he moves on to Stary and gets initiated on I can help him because I recently roleplayed with him. But a dynamic should be people that you actively travel with. This way you don't give people an actual range, but still, have them be together so they classify as a dynamic. So someone sitting in Kabanino won't classify as a dynamic with someone from Stary.
 

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I agree with OP but also with Roland. From a logical standpoint I think it’s dumb that I don’t get shared KoS rights and it puts me at a disadvantage but without the current rules groups have no incentive to be made besides a pretty group thread and a CP.

Perhaps if there was something else to replace the incentive like, I don’t know.. settlement rules, then it would be good to switch back. But everyone hates them because it puts the people initiating or settlement enemies at a disadvantage. Kind of sucks how that works.. ?‍♂️ 

Edited by Zero

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14 minutes ago, Zero said:

I agree with OP but also with Roland. From a logical standpoint I think it’s dumb that I don’t get shared KoS rights and it puts me at a disadvantage but without the current rules groups have no incentive to be made besides a pretty group thread and a CP.

Perhaps if there was something else to replace the incentive like, I don’t know.. settlement rules, then it would be good to switch back. But everyone hates them because it puts the people initiating or settlement enemies at a disadvantage. Kind of sucks how that works.. ?‍♂️ 

People hate the settlement rules because people used them for an invisible barrier for their camp which promotes hoarding and limitations on any hostilities that should exist if those rules would be made different sure but as of the old ones fk no.

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I say keep it the way it is. When we had the older rules everyone complained on how they needed updated and I never had a problem with any of the rules IMO, and I still feel the same way with the current rules we have. They could go into a bit more detail and some parts to make it easier to understand but I think I'm good with how things are right now and I don't think they need huge changes. Keep in mind I'm not normally in hostile situations so this can be completely different in other cases.

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I agree with Andrey here, these rules are to chaotic. Its almost impossible to keep track of who every single person of your group rps with who. Why have it so difficult when you just could make it in to a single rule which makes much more sense. And like was said, people that want to pvp will always pvp it does not matter what the rules are. Also pvp has always been a big part of the server when ever you like it or not, take the mod for example there was lots of pvp. And now this did not change at all.. so  the arguement that it promotes more pvp does not have a lot of weight since there has always been lots of pvp. I dont see how this rule would cause it even more, its just more simple and easier to understand. People who dont want to pvp still have room enough to do as they please. 

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Never had an issue with then old rules, and I'd never heard anybody complaining about them either. Changing them has just made things more confused and complicated.

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