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Roland

Require recording during hostile situations

Require recording  

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Guest Callie
46 minutes ago, Roland said:

Failure to provide said recording would put report in favor of the defending party.

So, guilty until proven innocent? I get reasonable doubt can be applied, even without hard evidence, but I'm not so sure on this one.

I get the reasoning behind the whole suggestion but I don't see it being exactly viable due to:

  • How poorly optimized the game is. While ShadowPlay or the AMD equivalent isn't very intensive, plenty of people straight up don't have it or aren't capable of using it. Other programs will only be more intensive and taxing on a CPU heavy game, so obviously a percentage of users won't be able to do this.
  • The amount of times I forget to start ShadowPlay until after something worthy of recording has come and gone... my hard drive would already be far more full than it already is of clips I never do anything with. So people with shit memory like myself are already eliminated.
  • Shit internet, primarily in the US. Internet just good enough to play games, but a number of people who have either (a) very poor upload speeds and (b) can't keep their PCs (often shared PCs) on overnight to just upload videos of situations.

The privacy concerns stated above are minimal, as there's already a loose process for handling that by keeping it in the hands of staff only if it's something that's actually needing to be kept private.

I think the majority of situations that end in a word vs word is often down to bad RP reports, rather than invalid initiations, KOS, etc. So for bad RP situations, you're only making the third bullet point more of an issue for people who straight up can't spare the time/bandwidth to upload a video that could potentially be several gigs of data. I've got 200Mbps internet, which is pretty good for my area in the US and the fact it's only used by me, but my upload speed is horrendous.

edit: My mention of bad RP is simply due to it often being bad RP reports that end in word vs word. So with hostilities that could be 5 minutes or an hour, you're looking at a potentially massive recording that even I would have issues uploading if it were an hour long. While granted I record with minimal quality loss, it's the difference between a 500MB video and a 5-10GB video, depending on length. My mention has nothing to do with the definition of bad RP as it is right now.

Edited by Callie

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1 minute ago, JimRP said:

And one more question, what if the one person in the group that can record is offline and wants to initiate, what do you do then? Just not initiate because the person off?

Hmmm, maybe? Don't know, I was mostly thinking about groups when I wrote it, not solo group members.

 

1 minute ago, Roman said:

Isn't it the accuser who needs to have evidence supporting his claims?

Accusers (or defenders) don't really know when someone will initiate, so they would have to record all the time to "catch" it. Attackers know when the initiation will happen so they can synchronize the initiation with recording.

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2 minutes ago, Roman said:

Isn't it the accuser who needs to have evidence supporting his claims?

That would make sense, but I also don’t believe that the report should go in the favor of the defendant just because the OP doesn’t have video evidence.

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Another limitation just for the sake of limiting nty.
Rather have it if someone wants to report then he has to have the evidence supporting his case.
I assume this is done to weed out the hostilities amongst official groups rather than to actually improve the reporting process.

Edited by Eagle

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1 minute ago, Roland said:

Hmmm, maybe? Don't know, I was mostly thinking about groups when I wrote it, not solo group members.

 

Accusers (or defenders) don't really know when someone will initiate, so they would have to record all the time to "catch" it. Attackers know when the initiation will happen so they can synchronize the initiation with recording.

No, you're restricting people from possible RP because someone can't record, pure no. Also a huge group of people, some maybe even innocent or hell even people who may be new to the group could land in a fuck up/a miscommunication and fuck up their admin record because of said miscommunication/hardware failure.

I agree with @Callie here. We should look into expanding BadRP as a definition, and set more limitations - for example put up a rule where a group has to emote at least X amount of lines with the hostage or something like that.

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So basically I have to record every time I want to take someone hostage? Like, I get the 1 out of the 5 people in the group can record, but what if his recording doesn't work, gets corrupted or whatever can happen to it? Do I get punished because the person in my group didn't manage to record? Regardless of only one has to record, you are still forcing everyone to do so because IG you never know when you will have to initiate. If I am alone and decide to initiate, but guess what I can't be sure my recording will work, I now have to wait for other people in my group to come so I don't get banned for not having a recording.

No one was forced to record before and the community has been doing just fine. The game in itself makes people not want to log in, so bringing in another restriction seems very unproductive. Not to mention, why can't the guy making the report record? He is the one reporting a rule break so why force the accused and not the accuser? 

17 minutes ago, Sleepyhead said:

I hate to say it, but a lot of people have shadowplay & plays.tv. They record, they just "don't have any video evidence". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

As much as the whole "my recording got corrupted" is just a meme and most times people not wanting to post recordings, it does not mean it does not happen. As posted by Stannis, people do get corrupt files. As someone that uses PlaysTV I can tell you, it sucks. Half the time I record with it, my videos are completely pixelated making the recording completely worthless.

Edited by AndreyQ

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11 minutes ago, Brayces said:

I know of ways to stream gameplay to VODs via YouTube and Twitch as well, without making it public. No corruption as the recordings are housed off the local machine. 

One problem with that unfortunately, Australian internet is as reliable as the dayz devs. So streaming data on 0.64mb upload is not a good option 

Edited by CalypsoMoon

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3 minutes ago, N-ToxRP said:

That would make sense, but I also don’t believe that the report should go in the favor of the defendant just because the OP doesn’t have video evidence.

Kinda how it works in court tho. It's the persecuter that have to provide the evidence that the defended did the crime. That's just basic justice.

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1 minute ago, Roman said:

Kinda how it works in court tho. It's the persecuter that have to provide the evidence that the defended did the crime. That's just basic justice.

I get that but there’s certain instances where it’s not entirely necessary to prove things, since we have things like hit logs.

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As much as I'd like to agree with this, I don't think that this would work out in the long run.  I think a lot of people "don't" record or end up having "video's corrupted" for the sake of convenience (yes, I do realize that sometimes it happens, but more often than not the excuse is VERY convenient), and as much as I think this would actually expose certain rulebreakers in the community as well as give that little bit more safety in the reports, not everyone can record, and sometimes people can record but can't upload due to data restrictions or slower internet.  As much is there are shady dealings when it comes to recordings, there are legitimate issues that do crop up from time to time.

Personally, I would say yes.  Anyone making the excuse about performance cutting programs have never used Shadowplay, the AMD equivalent, or even Plays.tv.  Even programs like OBS work with minimal performance hits, so those with better computers could easily use a more reliable program.  But, in the end, if it does go through and it doesn't work out, I won't say that I would be surprised.  I really wouldn't be.  I also wouldn't want to punish people in reports that do have actual incidents when it comes to recording.  Just leave the report as inconclusive rather than things like false report, or anything else silly.

Small Edit:  I also agree with @Callie in saying that BadRP needs to be expanded on.  There is a lot of bad roleplay, or roleplay that doesn't even fucking make sense that goes on that doesn't get punished under BadRP.  But that is a different topic altogether.

Edited by Cid

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16 minutes ago, Stannis said:

28fdca91c5c1ca57f377f507aea4b225.png

this shit corrupts all the time man ?

how am i supposed to make my epic roleplay montage, let alone record all hostile encounters

I had the exact same issue, use Display Driver uninstaller in Windows Safe mode and reinstall your drivers. Fixed it for me.

9 minutes ago, JimRP said:

No, you're restricting people from possible RP because someone can't record, pure no. Also a huge group of people, some maybe even innocent or hell even people who may be new to the group could land in a fuck up/a miscommunication and fuck up their admin record because of said miscommunication/hardware failure.

I agree with @Callie here. We should look into expanding BadRP as a definition, and set more limitations - for example put up a rule where a group has to emote at least X amount of lines with the hostage or something like that.

I don't think that will solve anything, it'll just turn the usual hostile RP into even more of a checklist before executing/releasing the hostage.

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No, forcing somebody in a group to be responisble of recordings of RP is gonna be really annoying for people. Having to send .mp4 to other people and having to get called to report threads to post your POV. Not everybody has a good enough hard-drive or CPU to record proper 1080p video.

Not to mention the amount of space that video takes up on a hard-drive, for me a 5 min 1080p 60fps video is 3.5gb. Having to drop extra money on buying a hard-drive just to not get reported is pain.

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6 minutes ago, N-ToxRP said:

I get that but there’s certain instances where it’s not entirely necessary to prove things, since we have things like hit logs.

Not true. Logs, while being helpful, only suggest a possible scenerios. They aren't and shouldn't be considered a definitive evidences. Unless you can list one or two instances where you feel like logs are the only thing needed to resolve report?

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10 minutes ago, Tewudin said:Not true. Logs, while being helpful, only suggest a possible scenerios. They aren't and shouldn't be considered a definitive evidences. Unless you can list one or two instances where you feel like logs are the only thing needed to resolve report?

Abusive OOC. The recent report that got @BanksRP banned, invalid kills to prove who was hit and gained kill rights. There’s numerous scenarios. I’m too lazy to pick through reports cause school is important but logs can be, but are not always, definitive evidence 

edit: I’ve seen multiple times where a mass kos was stopped because of logs

Edited by N-ToxRP

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I honestly don't know how this will make things better, No one in their right mind should ever be required to record. 

And hell reports imo should be last resort or if its a blatant malice rulebreak.

Like are we trying to get half the community banned just cause they don't have video evidence?

Just makes zero sense for us to be required to record when the game is broken as hell and to top that with having to have recording software running at all times is just an atrocity

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Guest Beni
33 minutes ago, Mak said:

I use that, but sometimes recordings get fucked for no apparent reason. This is a big Nono for me. I always try to record initiations/fights when I play on my decent PC, but a good 20% of the time shadowplay takes a shit and the file gets corrupted. Not willing to risk getting banned because of bad recording software.

Yeah I've had that, updating my drivers fixed that issue. Like it would just freeze frame for me. 

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5 minutes ago, N-ToxRP said:

Abusive OOC. The recent report that got @BanksRP banned, invalid kills to prove who was hit and gained kill rights. There’s numerous scenarios. I’m too lazy to pick through reports cause school is important but logs can be, but are not always, definitive evidence 

I understand but invalid kills are almost impossible to prove just by using logs. I mean, the OP may claim that he died and the kill was invalid or maybe it was KOS. In the logs it will show that he really die but without evidence there is no way to tell if this kill really was invalid or if his killers had kill rights. Or maybe he was executed for not following hostage takers orders.

I agree with you - some instances are possible to prove via logs only like... let's say combat logging, ghosting... I could list some more but the point I'm trying to make is that logs can prove without a doubt only a handful of cases.

Edited by Tewudin

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1 minute ago, Tewudin said:

I understand but invalid kills are almost impossible to prove just by using logs. I mean, the OP may claim that he died and the kill was invalid or maybe it was KOS. In the logs it will show that he really die but without evidence there is no way to tell if this kill really was invalid or if his killers had kill rights. Or maybe he was executed for not following hostage takers orders.

I agree with you - some instances are possible to prove via logs only like... let's say combat logging, ghosting... I could list some more but the point I'm trying to make is that logs can prove without a doubt only a handful of cases.

You’re right, logs don’t prove everything, but without logs you really can’t do anything. There are tons of situations that can be solved with logs. Video evidence is not always necessary. But I get what you’re saying a little better

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It's a no from me to this suggestion. Of course, it would solve our problems in the report section and it would be easier to do verdicts and punish people. But it would limit the hostile RP even more. We did that in the past and it didn't work out this would only strain it even more. Some can't record and I wish we could respect that. recording should always be recommended but not forced. 

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I'm not for being required to record if I'm doing a hostile situation, however, I do think you should have at least some video evidence if you're going to make a report. The amount of staff time I see wasted on reports that get closed because it's word v word is ridiculous.

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20 minutes ago, N-ToxRP said:

Abusive OOC. The recent report that got @BanksRP banned, invalid kills to prove who was hit and gained kill rights. There’s numerous scenarios. I’m too lazy to pick through reports cause school is important but logs can be, but are not always, definitive evidence 

edit: I’ve seen multiple times where a mass kos was stopped because of logs

thanks for reminding me

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From what I have noticed most of the big groups have enough time, space and dedication to record their firefights so they can use the footage to make sick frag montages, if they are able to record a firefight why wouldn't they be able to record an initiation? It would make reports a lot easier for the GMs to solve and would help prove your innocence would you be innocent. The "VOIP Bug" also seems to be a common theme among reports and having a video recording of you initiating would prove that you actually did initiate, else everyone could just blame the "VOIP Bug" every time they get reported.

I'd make it so that if official groups want to initiate on someone, they'd need at least ONE person to record the initiation / situation. Video evidence can only help prove your innocence, unless you are guilty of course.

Edited by Banshee

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12 minutes ago, lukaszxe said:

it would limit the hostile RP even more. Some can't record and I wish we could respect that.

Hello Lukaszxe

what do you mean by limiting hostile RP even more? Do you feel there is a lack of it right now in the server? I personally think it would balance things out a good bit. 

also I realize that some can't record, but if there's a whole official group involved in an initiation, shouldn't that statistically mean that some of them also can record?

Best regards, ya boi, Max.

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There is also the lesser issue of disk space. Granted you could juggle the duty to various group members but not everyone has a one TB external drive like I do to outsource video to so they don't fill up their C drive. 

Shadow play is very finicky at least when I use it, for what ever reason I have more problems now than I used to. I currently use OBS to record but even that is tricky because you have to walk a fine line between quality and playability. I have a decent rig but not everybody does.

I think there are less mitigating or restricting ways to do this honestly. This are minor poi ts but they need to be considered. Seems like overarching and slightly intrusive is all.

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2 minutes ago, Max said:

Hello Lukaszxe

what do you mean by limiting hostile RP even more? Do you feel there is a lack of it right now in the server? I personally think it would balance things out a good bit. 

also I realize that some can't record, but if there's a whole official group involved in an initiation, shouldn't that statistically mean that some of them also can record?

Best regards, ya boi, Max.

I'm referring to the old rules that limited the hostile roleplay in the past. It's a good suggestion sure but I just don't like to force the initiators to record. Since if I say I'm recording an initiation and then that file would get corrupted or I forget to hit record I would be hit with a punishment in a report.

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