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Server time (UTC): 2021-09-24 00:44

Amnesty Grace


Hollows

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Y'know, I think if Jango wouldn't have lied to try to get out of his mis-ID, staff would've closed the report, but that's neither here nor there.

I do agree that it kinda sucks that I have to really, really watch what I say and do with a magnifying glass in fear of getting permed and losing my 31 dollars.

I think for offenses such as mis-ID and other firefight offenses, a little bit of leniency should be allotted. Right now with the rules on dynamic group rights they are, and how different it is from the rules from 2015-early 2017, it's way too easy to break one of these rules surrounding KoS rights and such. Sometimes when someone is about to make a risky decision, the question of "are you on final?" is brought into question and that just doesn't seem right.

So yes, +1.

Edited by Guest
Doublepost
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  • Sapphire

Yeah I’ll be honest I am afraid to act in almost every single situation that involves a gun and it makes roleplaying harder. I have never had a problem with the rules before and I got all my warning points prior to tendying on the forums for flaming, I think I had 10 for a punch RDm and 15 for bad rp on my first day @Nihoolious ? but all of the other ones were from forum. I had 120+ from that shit so it makes if I fuck up on forums for me to be banned again. 

Now in game I am over analyzing on rules and it makes me feel like I will break them and panic in situations.  I think you should get one free pass and I got a caution already so I can mess up in game at anytime once no matter what it is and be gone for good again. I feel your final should be relative to why you’re banned, for example me if I get into another flame war or post something offensive then I’m gone, not because I miss ID someone when I’m getting shot at during a firefight. 

TLDR EDIT: Final should be relative to why you were banned. IG reasons or forum behavior. 

Edited by Diamond
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  • Legend

We have a little thing that I think is stated where, for minor forum mishaps, we give Amnesty players  a single caution before they'll be given normal punishment on another offense. 

Perhaps I'm in the minority or am a black sheep as I have met really sweet, genuine people on final and some of them are pretty good friends to me. But, I think it would be cool to extend that "caution" over to minor rulebreaks in the reports section. However, that might raise the "well if they get a caution why don't we!"

I cannot speak for everyone but I myself try to be fairly lenient. If something is incredibly minor, I will try to let that person know that it should be fixed instead of trying to get them permanently removed from a community where they enjoy themselves & spend time with their friends.

I'm not here just to ban people and send them on their way, you know? But yeah, +1. Sorry for lil ramble.

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  • MVP

I don't mean this maliciously, I promise.  Just wanted to get that out there before I disagree with the point.

Whether the amnesty is being used for the big tendie wave of March 1st or for other reasons, I see no reason why those who have already been permabanned from the community should essentially get another chance from another chance.  I understand that mistakes happen, and yes I also understand that most of the offenses for most of the people are forum-based warning points, but why should those on the amnesty program get a chance that others that are on final warning don't get?  Other than the fact that you guys paid money to come back, your final warning is no different than any other final warning.

So no, I don't think those that are lucky to get a chance should get another chance atop the chance they already have.  If you are afraid of breaking rules, perhaps play a bit more passively.  The final warning system doesn't require you to get into firefights and hostile situations.  It requires you to play and be active on the forums.  If you don't want to change your playstyle perhaps it might be more worth it to you to die in a situation or not take the shot in a situation than to risk getting banned.  That's a decision that you have to make.

A small edit to kinda further piggyback on a point that @Sleepyhead made before my post.  I don't think just because of what you guys did in the past means the GM team are out to get you guys or whatever.  I'm also not trying to take away that you guys might have changed or what not.  I just don't think the players who have an amnesty final warning should be treated any differently from a normal final warning.  In the end, it is still a final warning.

Edited by Cid
more words
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  • Sapphire

Depending on the rule break in question, a bit of leniency would be good. Sometimes people screw up by accident and itd be kinda crappy if they got permed again for something they didnt mean to do.

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  • Sapphire
6 minutes ago, Cid said:

I don't mean this maliciously, I promise.  Just wanted to get that out there before I disagree with the point.

Whether the amnesty is being used for the big tendie wave of March 1st or for other reasons, I see no reason why those who have already been permabanned from the community should essentially get another chance from another chance.  I understand that mistakes happen, and yes I also understand that most of the offenses for most of the people are forum-based warning points, but why should those on the amnesty program get a chance that others that are on final warning don't get?  Other than the fact that you guys paid money to come back, your final warning is no different than any other final warning.

So no, I don't think those that are lucky to get a chance should get another chance atop the chance they already have.  If you are afraid of breaking rules, perhaps play a bit more passively.  The final warning system doesn't require you to get into firefights and hostile situations.  It requires you to play and be active on the forums.  If you don't want to change your playstyle perhaps it might be more worth it to you to die in a situation or not take the shot in a situation than to risk getting banned.  That's a decision that you have to make.

I think anyone on final warning in general should get a final based on why they’re on final. Not just the tendy boys, or amnesty people. 

Mistakes happen often, ex I punched a dude and killed him and got a rdm and he died to a glitch with the one punch man problem we had a few years back. 

Idk I play safe now anyways but rules have never been a problem for me, I think that speaks for a lot of people on final for any reason,  it’s forum related not in game related. 

Just what I think 

But I get where you’re coming from cid 

Edited by Diamond
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  • Emerald

Not gonna happen, everyone else on final over the past idek how many years had to deal with this too.

Pray for extenuating circumstances

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  • Legend

I'd like to add on a little more and just say that I think we've been fairly lenient, at least where we can be. Not just with Amnesty or Final players either.

Whether it's sending a quick message telling someone that they should fix a post or in a semi recent report, a player on final metagamed at a very minor expense, and instead of a full punishment they had been given a verbal warning.

The thing is, with forum cautions & verbal warnings in reports, we only give these once for small mishaps. After that, if it happens again that's on the shoulders of the player themself.

Then, if we did proceed to give cautions for certain rulebreaks I think there would be a big debate over "well he was cautioned for this, but I wasn't cautioned for this!" and I can just see a little bit of trouble with that :c

tldr: people don't deserve to be banned for the tiniest of things, in my own personal opinion

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I'm not sure if it matters, but I'd like to speak about it as well. I was banned nearly a year ago and yes, it was for legitimate reasons and I do accept it was appropriate at the time.. However, I do think keeping people on 29 points for three months is a bit too much. It cost me nearly 50$ Canadian + another 10 for Tycoon monthly and so on. I wouldn't have invested that money if I wasn't serious about trying to re-assimilate and be a contributing part of the server.. This being said, I understand as we're given Amnesty, we're put on 'trial' to see if we're reformed enough to stick to our words as per the Amnesty process.. However, I'm scared, literally scared to even pick up a Gun.. IG.. I'm scared I'm going to do something even minor incorrectly to the point my character really can't be played according to how I designed her originally..  I'd very much appreciate feeling less like 'one wrong move and it's all gone.. ' Because, of course as you mentioned sleepy, We're shown going through Amnesty that minor things won't destroy our investment, but I've also seen severe punishments given to people / situations I would have never expected in the Server..  Again, I understand it's necessary, because some people have been previously banned for some serious infractions.. but can't the 'trial' period be set at 29 points last for perhaps a month instead? or perhaps even weekly.. displayed good behavior knock down 5 -10 points? :x 

Edited by Bounty
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  • MVP

If you think about it, final warnings should work. I mean if you keep breaking rules over and over again, it's clear that you need to stop. The problem here is that finals don't work like that. A lot of people are on final because of forum activity and when they are put on final they are now forced to watch each and every action they do IG which is no way near fun. I mean just 2 days ago, me and Patz initiated on someone, he didn't comply and I simply didn't want to shoot because I just didn't want to take that risk. Staff has the ability to let points stay for much longer and that ability should be used. If you keep on breaking rules, let them be IG or on the forums, extend the points to last for 3 months, instead of putting people on final.

As for giving people coming back from amnesty, I feel like a final is an ok solution. It's not enjoyable, I am definitely not enjoying it, but it is what it is. I can see missIDs being a mistake but that is the idea of a final, you can noy do mistakes.

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  • Emerald

Usually its pretty easy to tell so long as there is enough evidence whether a rule break was an accident anybody could have made, such as a firefight rdm, or something that was obviously intentional, such as warnings for a forum post or a NLR break. In the case of an accident, I would hope the GM team wouldn't remove somebody on a final for something like that, so long as it didn't become habitual. Sure, people can theoretically change play-styles, but when there are several large hostile groups on the sever, it can be difficult to avoid fights. I've never received a ban for an in-game infraction, however I easily could have on several occasions if I wasn't lucky the person I killed was involved in a situation; so could anybody who participates in firefights on a semi-regular basis.  

While a final warning is a final warning, I do think the situation of players given amnesty is / should be slightly different. Under normal circumstances, a final is given to a community member who has broken several rules in quick succession, and likely will continue unless a stricter stance is taken. With amnesty players, there wasn't a line of rule breaks leading up to the warning. Rather, it was given as a result of coming back from a perma-ban. While obviously there had to have been previous infractions for the perma-ban to have been given, it's been some time since for many coming back. It would be much fairer for those coming back to at least have some wiggle room for accidental infractions, rather than an instant removal for something any of us could mistakenly do. 

Edited by Rick
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  • Diamond

Final warning on there own are mostly just for staff who see something bad and feel like they should not be permed but taught a lesson the issue with that is what @AndreyQ mention I was on mine for I think 6-7 months before it got revoked, during that time I was honestly not interested in taking part in any fights initiations or anything that could lead to my perma ending with me running around aimlessly just waiting for my time to reach their quota.
As for those that were permed and brought back they should have to deal with the final even though it sometimes feels like it's rigged.

Edited by Eagle
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Not to mention... Though 3 months is a long time in RL / 3 Month actively roleplaying IG? A single month is like a year's worth of interaction.. It translates differently from real time.. Which is why I felt the need to post.

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  • MVP
7 minutes ago, Bounty said:

Not to mention... Though 3 months is a long time in RL / 3 Month actively roleplaying IG? A single month is like a year's worth of interaction.. It translates differently from real time.. Which is why I felt the need to post.

This is another thing that is a bit annoying. People have to be active IG. But there is no difference between people that hop on daily or people that hop on 2,3 times a week. They are both active but one is definitely more active than the other, yet both have to wait 3 months to appeal.

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  • Sapphire

I don't think this will happen but I do +1 this i know some people who are on amnesty and they are scared to do anything remotely hostile for the chance something little goes wrong and they are gone from the community again and out the money they paid.

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  • Diamond

This is a decent idea that needs to be looked into. For something small or an accident they shouldn't get booted.

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  • Sapphire

Malicious rulebreakages should push the final warning to a perm. If someone makes a mistake, mis-id's and or does something unintentionally and are genuinely apologetic for it should be classed as a caution.

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I have literally never raised my gun at another player in game, nor have I gotten in to a heated argument on the forums, it can't be that hard...

Like Cid said above, you're talking about giving another chance to people who are already on another chance. If you get in trouble, be humble and be quick with contacting the offended party and the admin team to try and sort it out. As Sleepyhead mentioned, they can be lenient; they aren't machines waiting for you to make an honest mistake.

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That's all well and fine, Rosiak, it caters to your play style and preferences I'm sure.. But, you're also not at edge of a knife's blade as far as possibly losing a 60$ investment and an investment of your time.. Which again, as it's said we're given some form of leniency unless it's considered serious.. But, I've seen something that most wouldn't consider as serious receive very harsh punishment or in some cases something that required a stronger punishment disregarded entirely.. There isn't much for consistency and it's not to say things can't change over time - but the whole point of posting, at least for me, was to express how stressful it is to try and be a part and active, when there is always the possibility of a simple rule-break etc being dealt with harshly or ruled on harshly on a case to case, perspective to perspective basis. 

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I was on final earlier and I was in hostage situations, firefights and overall hostile rp. It’s kindof fucky because it makes you quadruple guess literally every decision you make like I would see someone kill 3 of my friends and be shooting a 4th but I would still initiate on them just because I was worried about scuffed reports about ruleplay and the like.

So +1

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I am just saying that if keeping your gun down, at least until someone raises theirs at you, doesn't cater to your playstyle maybe you need to re-assess your playstyle in order to protect your investment - at least for the time being ? You chose to pay the Amnesty fee and accept the terms of the amnesty given to you. It just feels like wanting your cake and eating it too for members who are on Amnesty to now decry that it is stressful and difficult and their terms should be alleviated...

Edited by Rosiak
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  • Sapphire

I actually never had to pay the amnesty fee. I got back in through annoying the hell out of staff through appeals. Actually, it was out of the goodness of their hearts in a way.

However, offenses are offenses, people play this game differently and at the end of the day... The rules are there to facilitate all avenues of play within constraints. Pushing them or crossing them is something most of us do from time to time and the punishments are there for a reason. If you don't wish to raise your gun in anger (IG not IRL) or don't wish to have a heated discussion on the forums. By all means go for it.

But without people who do these things... Imagine how fuckin dull this place would be huh?

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  • MVP

Malicious or mistaken rules breaks, that is the question. It'd be down to staff discretion to decide which something some community members don't trust in.

It's simple really, don't break the rules which is entirely possible as there are many community members who RP as hostile characters that have been around for years and haven't got a single warning point.

Those who came back via the amnesty knew what they signed up for and agreed to (final warning). Those using the amnesty need to prove they have returned for the right reasons and as we know actions speak louder than words which means being active and being a positive influence in game and on the forum. It might seem unfair but some of the returning players have had second chances, third chances etc.

The amnesty was a great thing, I'm so happy to see people returning who I I had a lot of previous interactions with and some of my friends are back. The majority of returning players have been a credit to themselves but (even for those I call friends) as we all know it's easy to talk the talk, they also need to walk the walk. They might be walking on a thin line but that's the deal as it stands.

If that means RP'ing slightly differently or second guessing yourself before you pull the trigger for three months then so be it, it's only three months which I think is a small price to pay to stay in the community. Is a possible rule break worth risking your place here or for three months being a bit more cautious? Yes it's not pleasant but it is what it is at the moment. 

@Hollows you make a great argument for a change, I hope that it furthers the discussion. I kind of agree with what your saying to a point but I think that is my heart rather than my head. At the moment a final is the agreement which makes sense to be honest for the majority of returning people, however I applaud your passion over wanting a change and opening the discussion about it.

 

 

Edited by Samaritan
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  • Emerald

I feel as if staff members who choose not to give points to a member based on the fact they are on final and their rulebreak was not intentional (example a mis id during a firefight) will mean that they themselves will come under flak for a lack of consistency in their verdicts, which leads to a whole other argument, and I understand this.

However on the flipside, this is my second time on final (reminds me of how i’ve been banned for life from my local 4 times now) and it is real difficult out here, old tommy who wants to kos someone gets the same punishment as young stephen kosing in a mis id situation given that he lies in the report.

It’s just one of those situations, I know which meat is in my sandwich and just gotta get on with it.

 

 

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