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Demaabd

S1 - Attempted Kos in Outskirts of Green mountain - 05/20/2018 ~1:30am server time

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Server:

Server 1

Approximate time and date:

~1:30am Server Time

My in game name:
Felicia Lindell

Name of Allies:

Markus Letter    [ @Malet ]

Rain Valentine   [ @GreenySmiley ]

Name of suspect:

Dimon Andonov  [ @Cpt ]

Friendly / Enemy Vehicles involved:

As far as i am aware, none.

Additional Evidence?

@GreenySmiley Has a video Recording. @Roach also streamed the entire event which can be seen Here

We can all be seen at 28:37 in this recording. @GreenySmiley is wearing a blue checked shirt and a smersh vest, @Malet is wearing a damaged gray hoodie and a plate carrrier. I was wearing a green sweater and black jeans along with a hunting backpack.

Detailed description of the Events

Me, @Malet and @GreenySmiley were all at the Anarchy summit event Other than that the video provided by @GreenySmiley does a fantastic job of detailing events. 

Once we enter Green Mountain one of the first things i notice is that Anarchy has a hostage inside the prison building. I procced to stand at the wall outside of said prison building seeing as that is what everyone else seemed to be doing. Shortly thereafter the summit starts, and @LouieRP starts explaining to everyone why the event is even taking place. Shortly thereafter an at the time unknown party initiates on Green Mountain. Me, @Malet and @GreenySmiley put our hands up and laid down on the floor in the interest of our own survival. After not recieving any further instructions by the initiating party we felt that we, in the interest of our own survival, had no choice but to listen to what Anarchy was telling us and get inside the barrack building south of the prison building.

In the barrack building we simply stay on the ground, posing as little a threat as possible by either sitting down with no weapons out or laying on the ground with our hands on our heads. At the same time we RP with @Mexi and another person. 

Eventually the gunfire ceases, and we are again told by Anarchy to step outside of the barracks. We again, do as instructed. The decition to evacutate to a safer place is made and we start heading out north, towards the walled of barn a short hike away. On the way there gunfire resumes, and the command to simply run is given. We do as asked and run all the way to the barn where we wait for everyone else to catch up. 

Once at the barn and once everyone has caught up the summit is concluded and everyone attending parts ways. Me, @Malet @GreenySmiley @derNils @Strawberry @Malthis @Vrtra Remain in the barn. We procced to stand outsid the barn and resume RP, seeing as it appeared as the fighting had stopped. Some time later, in fact almost an hour after the initial intiation, a gunshot can be heard and @Strawberry is hit in the leg followed quickly by me getting hit in the arm. I take cover and patch myself up before running with the rest of the people in a rough northeast heading. We resume RP for a short while before i felt that it was simply too late and that i wished to go to bed. I wait out my timer while trying to contact a member of staff. I fail to do so due to nobody being in teamspeak at the time. 

After going to bed and getting on later the same day i get in contact with a member of staff, asking for hit logs in order to contact the person in question, in this case @Cpt. Seeing as he was not on Teamspeak at the time i poke a member of his group asking them to have him contact me when available. He did later that day. 

In the conversation i asked if he had attempted to Identify targets, to which his answer was yes. I then asked why he decided to shoot me anyway if he then obviously knew i was a non combatant and did not at any point pose a threat or not comply with given demands. He responds with that i ran and therefore he had kill rights on me. I end the conversation after this in disagreement with him. a few moments later i go up to a channel with @Malet and @GreenySmiley inside to ask their opinion, seeing as they were involved. We got in contact with @Harvey and explain the situation to him,  he recommends making a report, so here we are. 

Im am not aware of any rule that specifies how long a hostage has to remain compliant when no further instructions are given to them. Due to the fact, and the video referenced to shows this, that the gunshots stopped for an extended period of time and the fact that we were told that the situation was over, we assumed that the hositlites had ended. 

 

 

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Posting my POV while I have the time in case it's required

I went up to Green Mountain for the Anarchy summit. Midway into Louie explaining his plans for everyone; a group of unidentified individuals yelled for the entire compound to put their hands up. I put my hands up until everyone was told by Anarchy to get in doors. After a large amount of grenades and gunfire eventually died down, we were told by Anarchy that they were going to protect everyone and we were told to run down the mountain. We were brought to a barn down the hill and after around an hour from the initiation @Malet @GreenySmiley @derNils @Strawberry and @Vrtra and myself were standing outside the walls of the barn area and @Strawberry was suddenly shot from up the hill, so was @GreenySmiley . We took off running after people patched themselves up. 

As we complied with being told to put our hands up @Cpt did not have kill rights on any of us. Furthermore there was no possible way for him to even have identified every individual that was inside the compound to tell if they complied or not, due to the large amount of people there. The likelihood they would be able to positively identify the people at the barn as having been inside the compound as people they originally initiated on as well is highly unlikely as many of us were behind cover when the initiation occurred. 
 

Edited by Malthis

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my pov: was apart of attack, did initiation and pretty much died straight away. Was in team speak most of the time where @Cpt @MingTou and @Clarence we’re battling it out in the woods. Eventually people who weren’t from anarchy began leaking into the woods trying to kill the trio, at this point @Clarence had been killed by anarchy, @MingTou had been killed by a band of “civies” and @Cpt was still alive picking off anybody who had ignored our demands to remain inside with their hands up. When someone initiates on you to put your hands up, you put them up, but this doesn’t mean that you’re not going to be shot for putting your hands down and running away. The logic you’re trying to use reminds me of in school when a teacher asks a kid to sit down and he does, but immediately gets up again, the teacher yells at him but his excuse is “but I sat down!”

Green Mountian was under siege, if you left with a gun out, without your hands up and ran away from an attempted hostage taking, cpt has fair killrights on you.

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we initiate on everyone in the compound

shooting and killing

when the people inside the compound assume the shooting is over they leave, going against our orders

i follow you the entire way

i shoot and miss the first time

i am shot at

i see the two people who were shooting at me in black berets and red armbands, i hit one in the legs

i run around to the barn which is where i know the people from the summit, who we initiated on, were

i shoot another person and leave

21 minutes ago, Malthis said:

As we complied with being told to put our hands up @Cpt did not have kill rights on any of us.

you made an assumption which ended up getting more of you shot

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The difference here is you have no way of positively identifying any of the people down at the barn were people you had even initiated upon at Green Mountain. Anyone in the area you would have assumed to have been up there and been apart of the initiation as you merely called for every individual in an area to put their hands up while you weren't even in the compound itself. Your initiation was also not "Put your hands up and remain in the compound", it was "Put your hands up".  

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1 minute ago, Malthis said:

The difference here is you have no way of positively identifying any of the people down at the barn were people you had even initiated upon at Green Mountain. Anyone in the area you would have assumed to have been up there and been apart of the initiation as you merely called for every individual in an area to put their hands up while you weren't even in the compound itself. Your initiation was also not "Put your hands up and remain in the compound", it was "Put your hands up".  

i wasnt within earshot of the initiation but i knew we had kill rights

i watched everyone walk out of green mountain and down towards the barn

when you decide to rope yourself into the likes of anarchy and co which end up killing my group members you also put yourself in the line of fire as you were a part of the initiation group 

 

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POV: We initiate on the entire compound, we tell everyone to put their hands up, Stannis is the first one to die from the bloke in the tower, I move around the compound and attempt to get a clear shot on the guy in the tower, I end up getting into a firefight with Anarchy and presumed BPR/Civilian forces, I ultimately die. But I was listening throughout the situation and we ended up having multiple civie like gangs running around in the firefight, opening fire on our boys. Assuming from that CPT must have thought they were aggressors or parties involved on the side of Anarchy, presumably one of the guys he opened fire on had a red armband which is used by the BPR. 

 

Edited by Clarence

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The thing here is that everything is assumed. Noone knows for sure what factions, or who even fired back at you. I didn't pull my gun out the entire time things were happening, until after you shot at people down at the barn. A lot of the civilians up at Green Mountain did not engage in the fire fight, they were told to take cover inside of barracks and other buildings and did so with hands up.

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Seeing as I was mentioned in the original PoV I'll post mine as I was at the meeting for the initiation.

We go to the summit, at the gate we were told to unload weapons and make sure they're not chambered so we did that, we go in and line up waiting for Louie or another rep from Anarchy to speak.. This takes about 5-10 minutes due to the sheer amount of people. Once things start an initiation is dropped, flashbangs etc coming over the wall and EVERYONE that came to talk to Anarchy about what was going on put their hands up and was soon after told to go into a barrack to stay safe and avoid getting shot.

Then about 30 minutes of fighting ensues and everything goes quiet for like 10 minutes, Anarchy return with the all clear and we are then escorted to the barns west of Pushtoshka to continue RP, near enough everyone had their weapons away other than the members of Anarchy that were remaining and the BPR, NONE were a threat to anyone in the area.. We were told ICly that everything was clear.

31 minutes ago, Stannis said:

Green Mountian was under siege, if you left with a gun out, without your hands up and ran away from an attempted hostage taking, cpt has fair killrights on you.

The situation was over for like 10 minutes, the majority of us were sat in a barrack talking amongst ourselves for about 30-45 minutes until shooting had stopped.

20 minutes ago, Cpt said:

we initiate on everyone in the compound

shooting and killing

when the people inside the compound assume the shooting is over they leave, going against our orders

i follow you the entire way

i shoot and miss the first time

i am shot at

i see the two people who were shooting at me in black berets and red armbands, i hit one in the legs

i run around to the barn which is where i know the people from the summit, who we initiated on, were

i shoot another person and leave

you made an assumption which ended up getting more of you shot

You initiate on EVERYONE in the compound, you might have had valid reason to initiate on Anarchy but as someone of a group which is separate to them you had no valid reason to do so on the group I am in.

6.1 All hostile situations must be have a valid reasoning and be justified with role play that happened in character, in game or in radio chat forum.
6.2 You may not use character or group story as a universal reason to initiate hostilities with other players. For example, role playing a bandit, murderer or crazy person does not grant you explicit rights to attack other players by itself, there must be other circumstances, previous history between the players or role play that leads to a situation where being hostile is warranted

As far as I'm aware with kill rights as of recent, you either use them during the situation going on, or you don't. You chose to I can only assume of course, run off and wait to get a couple of picks before leaving.. This doesn't show anything but ruleplay in my opinion.

  • 8.5 Kill rights are still subject to rule 5.2 and rule 5.3. You shouldn't use kill rights in situations where it doesn't make in-character sense as it can be seen as rule play and invalidate your use of kill rights. In other words, obtaining kill rights alone does not give you explicit permission to use them any time you want and in all situations. Think about if using kill rights is viable in the current situation.

Which would make it an invalid kill due to this rule..

  • 8.4 Kill rights gained from any rule breaks (including but not limited to baiting, invalid initiation) are considered invalid and their use will be punished in the same way as if the kill rights were not obtained at all.

Just because you had the chance to do it and escape somewhat even, you shot at people who didn't have weapons out, were told ICly by people who DEMANDED that they come or they would be shot pretty much on the daily shown in this thread:



and then fall back on 'you didn't keep your hands up in a situation we didn't have ANY control over in the first place'.. Seems rather silly to me boys.

Anyway, we get to the barn ask if we're chill to leave due to one of ours gaining an injury from this meeting and then ran back to our spot.
I then log to take a shit and play something else.

Edited by Mexi

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ok. Thought I had a video. I don't. POV:

I chilled outside, a ways down the mountain, in a bush for a while. seemed dumb to head up there while there was a symphony of gunshots and grenades. Waited until it died down then proceeded up to the green mountain tower. sat around. Left shortly there after. event was then finally in the barn. event concluded in the barn. As stated - Malthis, Malet, Greensmiley, Dernils, Strawberry chilled and talked outside the compound. I personally didn't hear shit. I guess I should mention here that I blast schizo youtube videos while IC so I cant rightly say whether or not they "initiated" or not. just see strawberry get shot in the leg. Might of been shot twice. don't know. ran off to cover as he had passed out. Bandaged one of the peoples. proceeded to help treat strawberry. everyone gets up and we run away. 

 

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POV:

We arrive at Green Mountain for the summit and after getting checked by Anarchy enter the compound. Shortly after Louie started his speech an initiation was dropped demanding "Everyone in the compound put your hands up". (Sidenote: I never heard the demand to "Stay in the compound" - Greeny's video might clear this point up)
We lay down on the floor and place our hands above our heads in full compliance to the demands stated by the initiating faction. A firefight occurs and seeing that no further demands are stated by the attackers we follow the instruction to go into the barrack building in order so safe our life from the crossfire and value our characters life.

We remain in the room to wait for the outcome of the firefight and continue the RP. While doing so we never took out a gun or showed in any way resistance towards the initiators.
After some time the firefight stops, the siege of the compound was broken and Anarchy still in control of the place tells us to leave the area towards the barn area northwest of GM again to value our life in case the attackers who at that point retreated and were neither visible nor audible return.
We run towards the barns, when suddenly again shots are being fired after a certain time (Not sure how long) none were being heard. We arrive at the barn, have a short talk in the company of Anarchy and the Morettis before they leave.

We stay, have a nice conversation about this and that like you can see in my video that I recorded with Shadowplay. Suddenly out of nowhere a shot hits @Strawberry and shortly afterwards @Demaabd. I hit the ground and place my hands above my head to show my surrender. Strawberry laying the the open doesnt get finished and an Anarchist charges the hill so I presume its safe again and try to get Strawberry back on track. He gets back up and we go into cover.

Demaadb gets shot at 03:15 in the video.

Spoiler

 

Why this was a rulebreak: 

  1. Demaadb fully complied to the initial demands of putting our hands up. No further orders were given so we decide after some time to value our life and seek cover from the firefight, waiting for its results. This is no sign of Non-Compliance(!), especially because you were at no point in control of those that surrendered.
  2. Demaadb never took his gun out or showed any sign of resistance against you and is not part of any group that did so.
  3. There is no rule that states that you have to remain in a complying position for an undefined amount of time, especially when the initiator was clearly not in control and actually being pushed back so far that the gunfire stopped for a considerable amount of time that it indicated that the hostilities stopped. Following your logic once you get initiated on and the initiator leaves the area without any further demands you have to stay there until he returns - whenever that might be, even when there are clear indicators that the initiator left (like in our case).
  4. GM wasnt under siege like @Stannis stated, when we left. Otherwise we wouldnt be able to leave in the first place.
     
Edited by Malet
Added time of Demaadb getting hit.

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17 minutes ago, Mexi said:

You initiate on EVERYONE in the compound, you might have had valid reason to initiate on Anarchy but as someone of a group which is separate to them you had no valid reason to do so on the group I am in.

6.1 All hostile situations must be have a valid reasoning and be justified with role play that happened in character, in game or in radio chat forum.

The initiation was justified through in radio chat forums found here:

0cUmk34.png.

, anyone attending the summit was now an associate with Anarchy - and we decided to then make a threat to all those attending that we're going to attack:

282c7c35385c7ae03d9e9947250f63de.png

making it pretty much obvious, that if you're attending, you're likely going to be in a firefight.

19 minutes ago, Mexi said:
  • 8.5 Kill rights are still subject to rule 5.2 and rule 5.3. You shouldn't use kill rights in situations where it doesn't make in-character sense as it can be seen as rule play and invalidate your use of kill rights. In other words, obtaining kill rights alone does not give you explicit permission to use them any time you want and in all situations. Think about if using kill rights is viable in the current situation.

Which would make it an invalid kill due to this rule..

  • 8.4 Kill rights gained from any rule breaks (including but not limited to baiting, invalid initiation) are considered invalid and their use will be punished in the same way as if the kill rights were not obtained at all.

Just because you had the chance to do it and escape somewhat even, you shot at people who didn't have weapons out, were told ICly by people who DEMANDED that they come or they would be shot pretty much on the daily shown in this thread:

The IC sense as to which we attacked the summit was to make people fear doing diplomacy with anarchy, and to prevent any type of organisation within these groups to occur, and to declare everyone that had attended the meeting as an enemy. Everyone inside the compound at this point, who wasn't wearing a red or bright blue armband wasn't an objective to kill. Only when ming and Cpt were attacked by a band of civlians in the woods, who were obviously from the summit. Video of civilians attacking and killing @MingTou:

 

 

I recall Cpt then talking in TS asking us if he's allowed to stalk and kill the band of civilians that just assisted with the gunning down of one of our guys, we all said sure.

29 minutes ago, Mexi said:

'you didn't keep your hands up in a situation we didn't have ANY control over in the first place'..

Regardless, those initiated on failed to follow demands. If they had've remained in the area with their hands up they wouldn't have been shot. 

 

30 minutes ago, Mexi said:

As far as I'm aware with kill rights as of recent, you either use them during the situation going on, or you don't. You chose to I can only assume of course, run off and wait to get a couple of picks before leaving.. This doesn't show anything but ruleplay in my opinion.

I can understand the misinterpretation that Cpt's goal was to follow a bunch of civilians and get a few picks and kills, but that wasn't his objective. At one point he had the opportunity to gun down about 15 people running through an open field (01:17:20) but he only shot those with red and blue armbands, until people who weren't marked with armbands began shooting into the treeline. It was at this point where Cpt stalked the retreating group in order to return fire to those that had just shot at him.

 

23 minutes ago, Malet said:

Demaadb fully complied to the initial demands of putting our hands up. No further orders were given so we decide after some time to value our life and seek cover from the firefight, waiting for its results. This is no sign of Non-Compliance(!), especially because you were at no point in control of those that surrendered.

So you're in the Moscow siege a bunch of terrorists enter, telling you to put your hands up, you do it, but then you walk out because no terrorists said that you have to stay there! Why are you shooting me for trying to leave, there's no sign of non-compliance, I'm just trying to leave the hostage situation!

You made an assumption that the firefight was over, and this is a mistake you made IC, you assumed that we had no control over those that surrendered, but you were still shot by someone who had control of the situation.

26 minutes ago, Malet said:

Demaadb never took his gun out or showed any sign of resistance against you and is not part of any group that did so.

He ran from the situation, therefore he resisted the hostage taking.

26 minutes ago, Malet said:

There is no rule that states that you have to remain in a complying position for an undefined amount of time, especially when the initiator was clearly not in control and actually being pushed back so far that the gunfire stopped for a considerable amount of time that it indicated that the hostilities stopped. Following your logic once you get initiated on and the initiator leaves the area without any further demands you have to stay there until he returns - whenever that might be, even when there are clear indicators that the initiator left (like in our case).

Exactly, there isn't a rule. It's up to your own judgement whether you believe that it's safe enough to leave or not. The wrong decision was made and people got shot.

27 minutes ago, Malet said:

GM wasnt under siege like @Stannis stated, when we left. Otherwise we wouldnt be able to leave in the first place.

Isn't this report about someone getting shot trying to leave GM?

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19 minutes ago, Stannis said:

The initiation was justified through in radio chat forums found here:

0cUmk34.png.

, anyone attending the summit was now an associate with Anarchy - and we decided to then make a threat to all those attending that we're going to attack:

282c7c35385c7ae03d9e9947250f63de.png

making it pretty much obvious, that if you're attending, you're likely going to be in a firefight.

The IC sense as to which we attacked the summit was to make people fear doing diplomacy with anarchy, and to prevent any type of organisation within these groups to occur, and to declare everyone that had attended the meeting as an enemy. Everyone inside the compound at this point, who wasn't wearing a red or bright blue armband wasn't an objective to kill. Only when ming and Cpt were attacked by a band of civlians in the woods, who were obviously from the summit. Video of civilians attacking and killing @MingTou:

 

 

I recall Cpt then talking in TS asking us if he's allowed to stalk and kill the band of civilians that just assisted with the gunning down of one of our guys, we all said sure.

Regardless, those initiated on failed to follow demands. If they had've remained in the area with their hands up they wouldn't have been shot. 

 

Anyone that went to the summit did so, so that their group could continue to operate.. It clearly states that groups would be 'terminated' if we didn't attend, so we did. Your post had no pointer that those who attended would be under scrutiny from your group, everything that you said was clearly aimed at Anarchy as they are the only ones that have supposedly 'raped, robbed and murdered'. The majority of groups that attended were actually peaceful and tbh ICly had no idea you existed due to never meeting you so, it would fall under rule 6.1 and 6.2..

Because you say 'you've got it coming!' to people who are the ones who have actually done shit wrong, that doesn't make it 'clear' for those who haven't done anything you mentioned in your radio post.

You didn't have control of the situation, whatsoever.. After being told ICly that it was clear, we were escorted to continue ROLEPLAY at another location to then be shot.

You were clearly, HEAVILY outnumbered by not only Anarchy but if the others in the compound had decided not to comply what would you have done? From what I heard there were possibly like 5-7 of you? there was about 30+ in the compound alone.. I'd say that's a rather clear NVFL, but I guess that's determined by the GM's who deal with this.

As someone else who was shot at, even though I remained in the compound the entire time. Cpt didn't take notice of who he was shooting, the last few shots that were fired clearly were just failed attempts to draw back a couple of kills from the heavy losses sustained from one side.

Edited by Mexi

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3 minutes ago, Mexi said:

Anyone that went to the summit did so, so that their group could continue to operate.. It clearly states that groups would be 'terminated' if we didn't attend, so we did. Your post had no pointer that those who attended would be under scrutiny from your group, everything that you said was clearly aimed at Anarchy as they are the only ones that have supposedly 'raped, robbed and murdered'. The majority of groups that attended were actually peaceful and tbh ICly had no idea you existed due to never meeting you so, it would fall under rule 6.1 and 6.2..

Because you say 'you've got it coming!' to people who are the ones who have actually done shit wrong, that doesn't make it 'clear' for those who haven't done anything you mentioned in your radio post.

You didn't have control of the situation, whatsoever.. After being told ICly that it was clear, we were escorted to continue ROLEPLAY at another location to then be shot.

You were clearly, HEAVILY outnumbered by not only Anarchy but if the others in the compound had decided not to comply what would you have done? From what I heard there were possibly like 5-7 of you? there was about 30+ in the compound alone.. I'd say that's a rather clear NVFL, but I guess that's determined by the GM's who deal with this.

As someone else who was shot at, even though I remained in the compound the entire time. Cpt didn't take notice of who he was shooting, the last few shots that were fired clearly were just failed attempts to draw back a couple of kills from the heavy losses sustained from one side.

Anyone that wasn't anarchy and went to the summit was declared as cowards, our goal wasn't to shoot at people who lacked light blue and red armbands until we started to get engaged by groups of civilians without armbands. After ming was shot by a group of civilians that he was refraining from shooting (seen in video) Cpt decided that rather than risk his own life, he had to be quite indiscriminate against civilians who were shooting at him.

The radio post made it clear that there was going to be hostilities.

We clearly did have some control on the situation if initiated on individuals were shot for breaking the ground of initiation.

There were 5 of us attacking the compound, I wouldn't necessarily put it under NVFL, but that's for the GM's to determine like you said.

I don't understand why Cpt would feel the need to 'draw back a coupe of kills' considering that wasn't even the goal of the attack, we didn't turn up with the intention of "let's kill as many people as we can!" regardless, the attacking group killed double their numbers so if you worked with that logic, your point still doesn't work.

He followed a group of civilians who killed one of our members, said group must've linked up with the remaining retreating anarchy force where Cpt specifically shot at those with armbands, only to be shot at by armbanded and civilians alike. At this point Cpt's goal, from what I heard in TS was to completely route the pro-anarchy forces out of the GM area, and to ensure his own safety by making people run from the area.

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14 minutes ago, Stannis said:

- snip -

Just to sum it up before the thread goes in a direction not even suppose to go:
1. Demaadb isnt part of any group.
2. He never even had a gun in his hand (as far as I'm aware!), left alone shot at any of you.
3. He complied with your demands until the hostile situation was over (No further demands or gunshots by the initiators).
4. He isnt Pro-Anarchy (This doesnt exist) and wasnt a threat.
5. He didnt ran to escape from the situation - He left the area after being told that the situation was over, no sign of the initiator was found and to value his life in case the gunfire returns.(not continues!)

You literally shot the one person who wasnt guilty by affiliation, non-compliance or hostile actions.

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1 minute ago, Malet said:

Just to sum it up before the thread goes in a direction not even suppose to go:
1. Demaadb isnt part of any group.
2. He never even had a gun in his hand (as far as I'm aware!), left alone shot at any of you.
3. He complied with your demands until the hostile situation was over (No further demands or gunshots by the initiators).
4. He isnt Pro-Anarchy (This doesnt exist) and wasnt a threat.
5. He didnt ran to escape from the situation - He left the area after being told that the situation was over, no sign of the initiator was found and to value his life in case the gunfire returns.(not continues!)

You literally shot the one person who wasnt guilty by affiliation, non-compliance or hostile actions.

We understand that he isn't apart of any group, may or may not have had a gun in his hands, but he didn't comply as he left the situation with a group of people who were in conflict with us at the time, directly going against our initial initiation of staying where you are. In our IC books, if you attended the summit you were pro-anarchy, being anti-our group. He left the situation on the assumption that those trying to attack were no-longer in the area, he made the wrong assumption and made a mistake, leading to him being shot.

He was shot as he ran from the situation once initiated on, was dynamically associated with a group of individuals at the time who shot at us, and was still loitering within the 1.5km radius of GM. If he had've remained where he was, and or Cpt was killed he would've been fine. Unfortunately, he made the mistake of leaving the area whilst combat was still going on, and went directly against the initiation. There was a risk that he could be shot, and he was. 

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10 minutes ago, Stannis said:

We understand that he isn't apart of any group, may or may not have had a gun in his hands, but he didn't comply as he left the situation with a group of people who were in conflict with us at the time, directly going against our initial initiation of staying where you are. In our IC books, if you attended the summit you were pro-anarchy, being anti-our group. He left the situation on the assumption that those trying to attack were no-longer in the area, he made the wrong assumption and made a mistake, leading to him being shot.

He was shot as he ran from the situation once initiated on, was dynamically associated with a group of individuals at the time who shot at us, and was still loitering within the 1.5km radius of GM. If he had've remained where he was, and or Cpt was killed he would've been fine. Unfortunately, he made the mistake of leaving the area whilst combat was still going on, and went directly against the initiation. There was a risk that he could be shot, and he was. 

Underlined something for you.

Dynamics don't exist, those who were told to go into the barracks were complying.
The fight was over for like 10 minutes before we left, no shots rang out for that period of time.
We were told, ICly that everything was clear.
No one that was STANDING STILL near the gates, who had the armbands on were shot when we were being escorted out yet they weren't shot.
The person who was, the OP of this report, had no weapon out, was no threat, was.
Whether you had rights or not, he posed no threat.

8.5 Kill rights are still subject to rule 5.2 and rule 5.3. You shouldn't use kill rights in situations where it doesn't make in-character sense as it can be seen as rule play and invalidate your use of kill rights. In other words, obtaining kill rights alone does not give you explicit permission to use them any time you want and in all situations. Think about if using kill rights is viable in the current situation.

 

-snip- <-- Wasn't really relevant to the situation.

Edited by Mexi

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11 minutes ago, Mexi said:

Underlined something for you.

Dynamics don't exist, those who were told to go into the barracks were complying.
The fight was over for like 10 minutes before we left, no shots rang out for that period of time.
We were told, ICly that everything was clear.
No one that was STANDING STILL near the gates, who had the armbands on were shot when we were being escorted out yet they weren't shot.
The person who was, the OP of this report, had no weapon out, was no threat, was.
Whether you had rights or not, he posed no threat.

Gonna leave this here for staff to use as reference, something similar happened recently when someone DID break compliance, was punished but also the person who had decided to take the shot.

 

I understand that dynamics don't exist. It wasn't our group that told you to go into the barracks. The fight was not over, as we still had someone in the area actively seeking out members with armbands. You were told incorrectly IC that everything was clear. The fight was on the southern side of GM, the people escorting you made a judgement to leave during the active firefight and picked a decent time. Once @Cpt killed the remaining opposition on the southern side of GM, he worked his way to the front and noticed everyone leaving. He began to shoot at armbanded individuals only to be shot at by both armbanded and un-armbanded individuals. When said group of armbanded and un-armbanded individuals stop at a barn, Cpt felt obliged to fire at the same group that had once shot at him less than 5 minutes ago, dropping the rules of 'don't shoot non-armbanded people' as he was just shot at by the said group. 

-below was snipped, somewhat still relevant in retort though.

In the report attached, nobody was killed except the victim- it's completely irrelevant to the situation at hand. When one of our group members are killed by a dynamic group of civilians sharing their kill-rights, and Cpt stalks said group until they stop at a barn - Cpt has killrights and within roleplay reason has the rights to open fire on the said group in order to avenge his friend and continue the mission of routing the summit. It is understood that dynamics don't exist, but Cpt had the ability, within the rules to treat everyone inside GM at the time of initiation as a dynamic group, even if they don't exist, as he shared kill-rights on every single one of them, and they all shared kill-rights on him also. 

Edited by Stannis

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32 minutes ago, Mexi said:

Cpt didn't take notice of who he was shooting, the last few shots that were fired clearly were just failed attempts to draw back a couple of kills from the heavy losses sustained from one side.

No, I was trying to shoot the guy in the black beret, ttsko outfit, and red armband, and yeah I failed.

'Heavy Losses'. We lost four people against thirty.

2 minutes ago, Malet said:

You literally shot the one person who wasnt guilty by affiliation, non-compliance or hostile actions.

When you associate yourselves with enemies of the established state that'll happen to you buddy. 

Take roleplay for what it is instead of hiding behind the rules.

1 hour ago, Malthis said:

The thing here is that everything is assumed. Noone knows for sure what factions, or who even fired back at you. I didn't pull my gun out the entire time things were happening, until after you shot at people down at the barn. A lot of the civilians up at Green Mountain did not engage in the fire fight, they were told to take cover inside of barracks and other buildings and did so with hands up.

You expect me to keep track of thirty different people's weapon status? It doesn't matter if you didn't pull out your gun or not. You made yourself a part of the fight by attending the summit. You were initiated on and killed four of my group members. 'You', as in the summit group.

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12 hours ago, Cpt said:

You expect me to keep track of thirty different people's weapon status? It doesn't matter if you didn't pull out your gun or not. You made yourself a part of the fight by attending the summit. You were initiated on and killed four of my group members. 'You', as in the summit group.

Yes, a 14 year old attended the summit to talk to 2 Anarchy members about relationship problems with their daughter he was dating, only to be shot at for it. You don't even take into account the fact that perhaps not everyone was even there for the summit meeting itself. Once again, you assume everyone was pitching in with Anarchy and you made everyone your enemy.

Edited by Malthis

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4 minutes ago, Malthis said:

Yes, a 14 year old attended the summit to talk to 2 Anarchy members about breaking up with their daughter he was dating, only to be shot at for it. You don't even take into account the fact that perhaps not everyone was even there for the summit meeting itself. Once again, you assume everyone was pitching in with Anarchy and you made everyone your enemy.

L2HMSWz.png

This isn't "Turn up at green mountain for friendly chat!" this is turn up to GM to be subjugated otherwise we'll hunt down and kill your organisation.

Anyone that attended was affiliated with anarchy, therefore our enemy IC. Our goal was to disrupt the summit and make people feel unsafe dealing with anarchy, which we completed. It was also a power-play in an attempt to make Anarchy feel less in-control and less basly enough to pull off stuff like this. 

If you attended a summit regarding the existence of groups and who's gonna get shot with the intention of talking about dating, it's really not the time or the place. Anyone there was already against us, as they were there to be subjugated and controlled by anarchy. 

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POV as shown in the video a hard to understand initiation is dropped at 1min. 11seconds. we comply but no further instructions are given and no one to ask what to do other then wait around for an indefinite amount of time. This shows my POV better than anything I can say and the last part is covered by Malet's video above.

 

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5 minutes ago, Stannis said:

-Snip-

You're trying to argue what a 14 year old finds important. Regardless that it wasn't supposed to be a friendly meeting, the point I'm trying to make is that not everyone showed up to listen to the meeting.

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36 minutes ago, Cpt said:

Take roleplay for what it is instead of hiding behind the rules.

No offense buddy, dont mean to argue as I'm not the one who was in violation of rules nearly RDM'ed - But what roleplay exactly came out of you sniping @Demaabd? Who gained anything from this? There is no hiding behind rules happening - If anything did your action interrupted on-going roleplay as seen in the video.

Edited by Malet

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2 minutes ago, Malthis said:

You're trying to argue what a 14 year old finds important. Regardless that it wasn't supposed to be a friendly meeting, the point I'm trying to make is that not everyone showed up to listen to the meeting.

I don't see what this has to do with the report, but if we compare it to something a little bear-bones:

X who is enemy with Y, plans to organize some sort of force against Y, you turn up with X and get upset when you accidentally get involved when Y turns up to fight X.

Your IC decision making has nothing to do with a report, and if you make a mistake IC, you're not supposed to immediately go to the report section and try to pin your mistakes elsewhere.

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