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Jamie

Sickness = NVFL?

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I was just reading a report verdict and I noticed someone receive an NVFL punishment because they didn't prioritise finding water.

A statement that I hear among most people is that once you have any form of sickness, the likelihood of actually getting through it alive is pretty slim. Most people I know just literally give up since cholera is a bitch. People can say that you can spend hours upon hours next to a pump and an apple tree, but the chances of shaking it are still low. 

My question is; Is it fair to give someone a NVFL punishment for an inevitable death due to sickness?

Edited by Jamie

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Punishment for the developers not understanding the time a sickness would usually take to do real damage to someone is a little off.. Plus the fact the majority of the time you can't even shake it.

Good question James, I too am interested.

EDIT: Looking at the report though he is blaming others for his own actions, false report sounds like the right punishment just as Eagle suggested.

Edited by Mexi

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Some sickness can take 30 minutes + to survive and punishing someone for not wanting to waste almost an hour to fix it, is just weird and shouldn't really be a thing.
Could you link said report?

Edited by Eagle

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1 minute ago, Eagle said:

Some sickness can take 30 minutes + to survive and punishing someone for not wanting to waste almost an hour to fix it, is just weird and shouldn't really be a thing.
Could you link said report?

Gotchu fam

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12 minutes ago, Chewy said:

Gotchu fam

Ow, that just looks like a false report, since he reported for no regard for a hostage and dies due to not wishing to receive water or drinks to assist him with his condition.
Almost like he wanted to die to report them.

Edited by Eagle

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To be honest, I think it should have been false report, but not nvfl. I'm curious too. 

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I too see it as a false report. It comes across as salt at being robbed and losing his gear and wanting to die to back up the report claim . Just on first impression. I'd expect the same punishment, but with a different brand.

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Going to explain the situation down for you chaps. The OP in this situation was originally reporting the accused for not taking care of his entity in this situation and not providing him with correct amount of food and supplies to survive the situation. There was also claims of Bad RP in this report however after investigation we deemed it fair in this context.

In regards to the report in itself. The main reason he got NVFL was in the fact that the person logged off while he was on the unconscious screen. If somebody was to get sick and decided to kill themselves that is perfectly fine, please. I am not doing to support any sort of punishment for this and will never sign a verdict that will support that. However he did log off while still alive in this situation, forcing his characters death. This is why we pushed it for NVFL due to both combating towards it. However for me myself the fact he logged while unconscious while still able to possibly survive the situation was what put the nail in the coffin.

In regards to false report. One of the main details I have always said is that you can only push for false report if the OP is aware that nothing has gone wrong. The GMs have advised that person that nothing is wrong and they proceed to let the quote on quote "salt" take the better of them. A person can report something and misunderstand the rules, that does not make it a false report. That makes it somebody who does not know what they are doing. However we did not push our end for false report there was a debate on regards to the hostages not leaving enough food and supplies for the OP to die (in this case, you also need to take into account the surroundings and the items that could be found in the area). 

If you chaps wana ask any more questions. Hit me up on TS tonight. Its my day off so Im free for the time being and hopefully clear up some things for you chaps.

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8 minutes ago, Stagsview said:

Going to explain the situation down for you chaps. The OP in this situation was originally reporting the accused for not taking care of his entity in this situation and not providing him with correct amount of food and supplies to survive the situation. There was also claims of Bad RP in this report however after investigation we deemed it fair in this context.

In regards to the report in itself. The main reason he got NVFL was in the fact that the person logged off while he was on the unconscious screen. If somebody was to get sick and decided to kill themselves that is perfectly fine, please. I am not doing to support any sort of punishment for this and will never sign a verdict that will support that. However he did log off while still alive in this situation, forcing his characters death. This is why we pushed it for NVFL due to both combating towards it. However for me myself the fact he logged while unconscious while still able to possibly survive the situation was what put the nail in the coffin.

In regards to false report. One of the main details I have always said is that you can only push for false report if the OP is aware that nothing has gone wrong. The GMs have advised that person that nothing is wrong and they proceed to let the quote on quote "salt" take the better of them. A person can report something and misunderstand the rules, that does not make it a false report. That makes it somebody who does not know what they are doing. However we did not push our end for false report there was a debate on regards to the hostages not leaving enough food and supplies for the OP to die (in this case, you also need to take into account the surroundings and the items that could be found in the area). 

If you chaps wana ask any more questions. Hit me up on TS tonight. Its my day off so Im free for the time being and hopefully clear up some things for you chaps.

From reading the report more, a false report would have been more plausible. From the one encounter with cholera I encountered, I ended up being stuck on the unconscious screen for ages. If I was to go through the slowly tedious death and met the unconscious screen, I think i'd probably wait a minute or less and hit respawn. Knowing that there's nothing around me that can actually help and the likelihood of waking up when my blood is going down, not up, I don't think the NVFL punishment is applicable here. 

False report would stand more firmly in a ban appeal. 

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Wasn't he gonna kill himself regardless? So like, if he woke up wouldn't he have tried to kill himself? So who cares if he did it while uncon? idk

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1 minute ago, Jamie said:

From reading the report more, a false report would have been more plausible. From the one encounter with cholera I encountered, I ended up being stuck on the unconscious screen for ages. If I was to go through the slowly tedious death and met the unconscious screen, I think i'd probably wait a minute or less and hit respawn. Knowing that there's nothing around me that can actually help and the likelihood of waking up when my blood is going down, not up, I don't think the NVFL punishment is applicable here. 

False report would stand more firmly in a ban appeal. 

I disagree with you there Jamie, mainly in regards to the false report. We would have had to have pushed it further to get that outcome. It could have been pushed towards that outcome yes, I wont deny the fact that if we had explained to him about the situation and said we saw no rule breaks we could have pushed further for it. But their was not just 1 claim here, there was multiple ones and the Bad RP one had a little bit of merit behind it however If we would have banned him straight up for that I disagree with your statement that a false report would have held.

If the person had been on the unconscious screen for ages, I would have even left it slide but it didnt take long for the person to decide to log off in this situation. By your statement letting it be for 1 min or 2 it would have been fine in my opinion (Combat situation would differ as then we spark the combat logging/nvfl debate again).

I respect your input, I really do, however I don't see it firmly standing without going through the proper warning on the verdict itself. To me its always boiled down to, if a staff member has told the person there is a rulebreak and the reporter is either trying to hide evidence, bending the situation to make it seem how it is etc.... Then yes, you then can hit for false report. However thats how I have been doing false reports since the get go. 

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1 hour ago, Stagsview said:

If somebody was to get sick and decided to kill themselves that is perfectly fine

What i'm struggling to understand is, when someone logs out on the unconscious screen that kills their character, which is pretty much complying with your statement here.

In the circumstances where he was involved in RP and decided to log out unconscious, he would have the options of being revived by people around him. In this circumstance, he was alone all the way up north with about 0.5% chance of waking up. It seems really petty myself.

I don't mean to appear like a snobby cu**, I appreciate the replies. @Stagsview

Edited by Jamie

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31 minutes ago, Jamie said:

What i'm struggling to understand is, when someone logs out on the unconscious screen that kills their character, which is pretty much complying with your statement here.

In the circumstances where he was involved in RP and decided to log on unconscious, he would have the options of being revived by people around him. In this circumstance, he was alone all the way up north with about 0.5% chance of waking up. It seems really petty myself.

I don't mean to appear like a snobby cu**, I appreciate the replies. @Stagsview

Its like the multiple re-spawning rule we have in place remember? If somebody was to kill themselves multiple times when they spawn they where to get punished for NVFL? Im pretty sure we worked on situations like that in the past but back on the topic on hand.

The situation in itself in a result of multiple actions that the OP did in the report. Not only did he focus on other matters rather than surviving but expected the others to provide all for him. The means to survive where around him. It isn't really that hard to survive those types of situations (from my own experience). To calm worries we will not be punishing people because they decide to kill themselves because they got themselves extremely ill IG. I won't support that. It was the whole situation in hand that made it come down to NVFL. But as stated originally, the fact he decided not to wait and just in our eyes "didnt care" got him this punishment.

To the statement I said: 

 If somebody was to get sick and decided to kill themselves that is perfectly fine

Yes, it is perfectly fine but due to everything that unfolded + the logging while unconscious we decided on a punishment.

Its an interesting debate, I ain't gonna lie its got me thinking and has got me thinking about getting some things twerked from learning from this situation. However in my humble opinion, if he would have just waited a little longer I would have left him off the hook. You might seem it petty yes, but it is still a rulebreak and with all that compiled here, we debated either verbal warning for NVFL or punishment. We decided in the end punishment. 

Now, this is just our views on the matter after a discussion. Who knows, maybe the admins might overturn our choice in the matter to another reasoning or yours. Who knows but I do stand by my reasoning in the verdict.

And yes, you are a C*** but one I love. Its good to see members of the communities opinions on matters, even if i do disagree with some of theirs.

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For me, the main point you and the reviewing party was going for was that he was on the unconscious screen. Irregardless if he pressed F11 or waited till the final moment where he dropped, the same outcome was inevitable. It's like saying i'm going to cut my sandwich into triangles instead of rectangles to avoid a rulebreak imo. And with how quickly you become dehydrated, the chances of 1 soda can saving him is next to impossible. I mean, when I'm skrrting around trying to find a waterbottle, I can miss the obvious in front of me sometimes, not really something I should get slapped for. 

also, ily2. ❤️

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8 minutes ago, Jamie said:

For me, the main point you and the reviewing party was going for was that he was on the unconscious screen. Irregardless if he pressed F11 or waited till the final moment where he dropped, the same outcome was inevitable. It's like saying i'm going to cut my sandwich into triangles instead of rectangles to avoid a rulebreak imo. And with how quickly you become dehydrated, the chances of 1 soda can saving him is next to impossible. I mean, when I'm skrrting around trying to find a waterbottle, I can miss the obvious in front of me sometimes, not really something I should get slapped for. 

also, ily2. ❤️

To be honest it wasn't just a can. He was in the area of lakes, water sources, food and even tree's that could help him with the matter in itself. He had more than a reasonable way to survive (no i am not saying we are punishing him because he choose to risk it for a biscuit, risk all you want but you are denying your characters needs). It isn't like he missed 1 random object and was only seen by a keen eye of a GM. Nah, its because he choose not to use them and then, as i have stated before for me the nail in the coffin he decided to log out while unconscious.

If he would have tried, and would have even waited just a tad bit longer on the unconscious screen as i said before. I would have pushed to let it slide. However he didn't and therefore I pushed for NVFL in this situation. 

But as stated before also Jamie. This is how we saw the situation. If the people who review the ban appeal disagree and overturn it. It will become something we will debate and come to a strong conclusion about and will inform you folks later. But your own opinions on the matter would be grand.

But don't worry, we ain't going to punish people because you decide to kill yourself  IG due to falling ill. Won't support that.

 

Ufff...hearts...this is getting serious now ::blushes::

 

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Guest Generic Name

If you're by yourself in the middle of nowhere and fall unconscious due to illness, I think that waiting for the death screen can be painfully long and tedious and shouldn't be punished for NVFL. There really was no other outcome than death. However, early after his release, the accused here seems pretty obviously set on reporting his captor for killing him due to his state, even though he still had a chance to survive but shows signs of not trying to help his situation. I think that a false report verdict would've been more appropriate because of the attitude shown in the evidence video which sums up to apparently trying to sabotage his own survival so that he can proceed with the report.

8 minutes 34 seconds was the time window available to him to find a water source or navigate to the pond. Unfortunately I cannot find a detailed map of the Tisy region and I do not know the exact location of the pond but I am certain that this was ample time to successfully save his own life. Feel free to argue any mistakes or oversight.

Detailed analysis of the evidence video.

 

28:57 Time of release

29:20 "...and my pants are ruined..." Focus on gear instead of health status.

29:27 Ignores a Pipsi in a piece of clothing

29:57 Kills an infected but doesn't search it for potential food. Infected often carry food. Many food items help with hydration, like tuna for example.

30:02 Kills another infected, unsearched.

30:10 "I don't know how to edit videos but I'm gonna have to..." Already has his mind set on reporting his captors.

31:26 "...they fucking took my SVD..." More worried about losing a gun than his health situation.

31:53 "...they didn't give me any fucking water so I'm gonna die from dehydration in a minute..." Lies about his captors not giving him hydration and acknowledges that he is dying and needs to look for a water source.

32:11 Kills another infected, unsearched.

32:29 "...I'm gonna (report), fuck, cos, I don't know..." Is set on reporting his captors but is still alive looting.

33:22 Kills another infected, unsearched.

33:38 "...don't bother coming up here cos I'm gonna die anyway."

33:47 "I guess I need to go to the pond." Proceeds to search military loot spawns.

33:55 "Aww, just found a bunch of stuff I like but you know I'm gonna die so..." Still proceeds to loot while dying.

33:56 - 34:13 Looting while dying.

35:34 - 37:46 Looting while dying.

37:25 Finds Canned Sardines, doesn't eat it right away.

37:31 Time of death.

Edited by Generic Name

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2 hours ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

-snip-

First off, I will start by saying that a false report verdict was not entirely out of the question. My initial thoughts, as probably made evident by my first line of questioning, was that this was a false report scenario. My initial thinking was that this guy is only reporting because he wants to get somebody banned, not because in his eyes somebody broke a rule.

Personally, false report is something that feels a bit...harsh, to hand out to somebody when there is some potential contention over the rules allegedly broken. Like it's essentially us saying you're just out to get somebody, which might be true. I personally don't like using false report unless it's absolutely certain this guy was scheming and trying to get somebody banned for the sake of getting them banned. In this scenario, i don't think it was as clear as that. There was some potential for rulebreaks to have occured, in fact there were arguments made within the team to suggest that the hostage takers were the one at fault (though obviously more of a dissenting view). Given the circumstances, it seems more like the OP's actions were ignorant rather than containing malice, and for that reason I chose against a false report. It didn't come across that he was intentionally sabotaging his own survival, more than he was pissed off and made some errors. At least, that was my interpretation of the voice comms.

To compare, I sided with a NVFL verdict for the simple reason that the OP took so little care and concern for his well being that he got himself killed. The OP is shown or acknowledges at least 2 sources of water, but either ignorantly misses it or just chooses to prioritise gear. He said in one of his replies he was only 30m away from the pond, the water source that would've saved him. It would've taken him 5-10 seconds to actually run that distance, instead 60 seconds looting around, swapping his bag around etc. In those 60 seconds it is safe to say he'd have given himself a better chance of surviving, which when combined with his ignorance for his situation (prioritising gear whilst he was dying of dehydration, missing a pipsi etc.) it seems he didn't value his character's life that much after all. Furthermore, in this situation he logged out before he was actually dead. The combination of all these things came across as so reckless, like he was discarding his character's life.

@Jamieone thing I will disagree on though is when staggs states a person who kills themselves during sickness would be fine. That, to me, still counts as NVFL to blow your character's brains out simply because he's sick. It's still you putting your gun to your head and pulling the trigger, which should result in death of a character. this is my personal stance on the matter, I do not speak for the team.

Again, if anybody wishes to discuss this with me, feel free to give me a poke in TS ?

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Well that was my report, and I genuinely did think rules were broken. I wasn't in a rush to find water because as others have said cholera is a bitch and i would've preferred just dying, as i had nothing to lose at that point. i didn't want to die because i wanna get someone banned, i don't get enjoyment out of getting people banned just cause, and it'd kinda insulting that a GM would assume that, but i understand why they might have seen it that way. I've been in this community since 2014, obviously i care about it and obviously i don't wanna get other RPers banned for shits and giggles. while the report may have been fueled with some salt on my behalf, i really felt that the entire encounter was just bad.

Back to what i was saying before about dying due to thirst, i think its silly that i got the ban for it, as it really doesn't affect anyone's RP negatively, and at the time I believe very few players were online so after i fell unconscious the chances of someone finding my body and trying to revive me was slim, i saw no harm in just re-spawning. 

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3 hours ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

-snip-

  Reveal hidden contents

28:57 Time of release

29:20 "...and my pants are ruined..." Focus on gear instead of health status.

29:27 Ignores a Pipsi in a piece of clothing

29:57 Kills an infected but doesn't search it for potential food. Infected often carry food. Many food items help with hydration, like tuna for example.

30:02 Kills another infected, unsearched.

30:10 "I don't know how to edit videos but I'm gonna have to..." Already has his mind set on reporting his captors.

31:26 "...they fucking took my SVD..." More worried about losing a gun than his health situation.

31:53 "...they didn't give me any fucking water so I'm gonna die from dehydration in a minute..." Lies about his captors not giving him hydration and acknowledges that he is dying and needs to look for a water source.

32:11 Kills another infected, unsearched.

32:29 "...I'm gonna (report), fuck, cos, I don't know..." Is set on reporting his captors but is still alive looting.

33:22 Kills another infected, unsearched.

33:38 "...don't bother coming up here cos I'm gonna die anyway."

33:47 "I guess I need to go to the pond." Proceeds to search military loot spawns.

33:55 "Aww, just found a bunch of stuff I like but you know I'm gonna die so..." Still proceeds to loot while dying.

33:56 - 34:13 Looting while dying.

35:34 - 37:46 Looting while dying.

37:25 Finds Canned Sardines, doesn't eat it right away.

37:31 Time of death.

What i said OOC really shouldn't matter as i was punished for an IC rulebreak, but i see how that can make me look bad.

Everyone is quick to point out the mistakes such as me not looting zombies, and missing a single can of soda but military bases do spawn water bottles fairly often

and yes i was set on reporting my captors, that was simply me talking to my friend, i'm sure anyone who had a bad experience with someone knew that they wanted to report that person fairly quickly and would probably talk to their friends about it if they could.

I said this many times, but every building i looted i was getting closer to a pond, i did not realize how fast i was losing blood and thought even with the backpack switch i could've made it, and i was very close to making it as i died less than 100m from a pond, that you can clearly see me running to right before i died.

I would also like to point out that if my captors hadn't made me count to 160 a second time i would've made it to that pond and i probably wouldn't be banned right now

Edited by Mortico

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