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Centurion

S1: Killing a compliant hostage, powergaming, Possible NLR Altar- 2/26/18 22:20ish

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Server and location:  Altar

Approximate time and date of the incident (SERVER TIME):  2-26-18, around 22:20- 22:30

Your in game name:  Samuel Chernikov

Names of allies involved:  @Wyomingwas AFK in the area but did not have anything to do with the situation, and @Gandhi was in comms but at nw airfield

Name of suspect/s:  @Shazzzam

Friendly/Enemy vehicles involved (if any):  None

Additional evidence? (video/screenshot):  

 

Detailed description of the events:  I was hanging around our base at altar keeping warm with @Wyoming, he goes afk so I was just walking around when @Shazzzam runs up and initiates. I comply because my gun was on my back and drop my weapon. He asks me how many people were in the area, to which I ask him what he calls "in the area." He then threatens to shoot me if I didn't answer so I just bs saying there were 3-5 people in the area. He then takes out an axe and tells me not to make any loud noises, and then says he's going to cut my legs off(around 42 seconds in the video). Fearing for my life because he threaten to kill me earlier for not answering a question, i only make small grunts and after a couple of hits, he knocks me out and kills me. I attempted to talk to him on ts, when he has the audacity to call my rp terrible for not making a lot noise while he was hitting me with an axe because HE TOLD ME NOT TOO. His reason for revenge was an initiation that happened earlier at altar, where he was killed for non-compliance, so he may have come back to soon as well, not sure about this one. My recording isnt from the beginning, its about half way through the whole interaction so it should show you how long the event took place, less than 5min. 

 

Edit: Our only interaction with the group have been these two instances. No other interactions have occurred in-game.

 

Edit 2: Adding more detail to what happened before the recording starts. While walking around underneath the radio towers trying to get bark for a hand drill to start a fire, a man runs up to me, does a bit of a lap around me and then stands still aiming his pistol at me all in silence. I greet him, to which I met with silence for a couple of seconds and then an initiation. He tells me to drop my gun and because it was on my back and he was point blank range, I comply, and drop my akm. He then tells me to lay on the ground, so I do, and he picks up my akm. He asks me how many people I have in the area. At this point I am attempting to rp with him about how specific he wants me to be, but after asking the question, he demands I answer in 5 seconds or he was going to shoot me. At that point, I just say that I didn't know specifically but 3, 4, maybe 5 men were in the area just to give him an answer so he doesn't shoot me. After this he tells me to put my hands on my head, which I ask ooc what the button was since I haven't played this game in years until recently, and put my hands on my head. He then demands me not to make any noise, and because he threatened to kill me immediately earlier, I dont. He then says that he is going to get revenge for killing one of his men. It is at this point that I tab out and start my record, pressing alt+z (like I said), which cause me to stand up. The rest happens in the video. This is my first interaction with any members of the embers and only the second interaction of the group as a whole. The reason for the revenge was an initiation that Wyoming did earlier because shazzzam was avoiding rp and running away from wyoming. Wyoming believed he had stolen something from our base and wanted to talk to him about it, but Shazzzam keep running in the opposite direction of wyoming, so he had to initiate to get him to stop. Wyoming and Shazzzam kill each other. One of our guys has video of him avoiding talking to our guys and leading to the first initiation I believe, I'll have to ask.

Edited by Centurion

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First of all this is not the full video. How about your start from the point where I initiated on?

POV: I hid in the grass near the bigger radio tower. Saw one of the Socialists come up, recognized him by his armband, turned out to be a correct ID.

Reason for initiation? More than an hour ago there was a firefight between my group and his. I understand I do not retain kill rights, nor could I have continued the conflict. But the conflict in fact ended before I came back more than an hour ago as this rule states that I can: 

9.1 You are not allowed to return to the area where you died for 1 hour after death. You may also not get involved in the hostile situation that lead to your death, for however long it lasts. Server restarts, crashes or other OOC events do not affect these restrictions or time limit.

As I said I did not get re-involved in the previous conflict, as it ended more than 30 minutes after my death. My body is also quite far away from the area, but can still be considered in it, I guess? The staff should decide that. My previous death, roughly an hour and ten minutes ago was above the forest at Gorka. Even if it is in the area, the staff can check the time between me returning and the death. As this rule states: 

9.2 When your character dies you must continue your role play as if you were wounded in the situation that lead to your death.

I did not use any kill rights to hunt down my killer as my killer was in fact @Wyoming
. We both shot at each other and apparently I later learned that he died as well. I would like to ask if he did die and has he kept the rule as I did and returned to the area after 1 hour or not, as @Centurion stated he was afk in the tents by the time I got there.

Now, I initiated on Centurion, not simply attacking him and @Centurion disobeyed what I told him on several occasions, would he just post the video with the situation from the beginning and not his biased version. He displayed bad RP in the said video by not showing ANY signs of pain whatsoever just a small little grunt, neither writing nor using voice when he got hit in the legs with the axe. In fact his character did some noises after I targeted the back area, much better roleplay in my opinion than he put out, by his character. I said "cutting his legs" and "don't make any loud noises" in a metaphorical way. I understand as well as anybody else, that getting hits from such a weapon is bound to make the target let out some noise, I mean "Don't scream too much", not as a direct command. 

Aside from my explanation about his video, if he shows the full thing he will clearly show himself disobeying some of my commands, the occasions where two where I tell him to lay down and put his hands up, but he role plays so inadequately to the point where I think, I might be wrong, but he messes the keys or I don't know what he attempts. He just clearly stands up after I told him to lay down and put his hands on his neck. That gave me an opportunity to put him down right then, but for the sake of roleplay I did continue it. I did not get satisfied by the outcome either, I expected him to have better reactions as I tried roleplaying the deranged injured guy who badly wanted revenge and he simply didn't do anything, just answering my questions with extreme simplicity, with a fear or some feeling, I don't know how to put it, that I don't get kill rights on him or something. He even screws up a few times as I said and gave me that opportunity. He displayed bad role play in my honest opinion.

Also as he said he wanted me to speak in TS his group member Wyoming started cussing me, but this seems a bit irrelevant because I was neither recording nor do I have any screenshots unfortunately. I just ask of the staff to request @Centurion to post his full video, I'm sure this is not everything he has. 

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Connection Logs:

Spoiler

22:13:45 | Player "Samuel Chernikov" is connected
22:29:56 | Player "Samuel Chernikov" has been disconnected

19:44:46 | Player "Hans Kleinenberg" is connected
23:13:38 | Player "Hans Kleinenberg" has been disconnected

21:02:45 | Player "Artyom Pretrov" is connected
23:07:46 | Player "Artyom Pretrov" has been disconnected
23:25:11 | Player "Artyom Pretrov" is connected

Hit Logs:

Spoiler

22:27:40 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into pelvis."
22:27:42 | "Samuel Chernikov STARTS BLEEDING."
22:28:12 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into LeftLeg."
22:28:21 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into RightLeg.""
22:28:23 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into LeftLeg."
22:28:25 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into RightLeg."
22:28:27 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into pelvis."
22:28:35 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into LeftLeg."
22:28:38 | "Hans Kleinenberg HIT Samuel Chernikov by WoodAxe into LeftLeg."

Death Logs:

Spoiler

22:28:51 | "Samuel Chernikov DIED Blood <= 0"

Text Logs:

Spoiler

22:26:11 | Chat("Samuel Chernikov"): //WHATS THE BUTTON AGAIN?
22:26:22 | Chat("Hans Kleinenberg"): //CHECK YOUR CONFIGUARTION
22:26:43 | Chat("Hans Kleinenberg"): //f2

Calling in @Wyoming For his POV on the matter.

In addition, please post all unedited video evidence that you may have regarding the situation and list any allies you had during this event that have not yet been mentioned.

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1 minute ago, Shazzzam said:

First of all this is not the full video. How about your start from the point where I initiated on?

POV: I hid in the grass near the bigger radio tower. Saw one of the Socialists come up, recognized him by his armband, turned out to be a correct ID.

Reason for initiation? More than an hour ago there was a firefight between my group and his. I understand I do not retain kill rights, nor could I have continued the conflict. But the conflict in fact ended before I came back more than an hour ago as this rule states that I can: 

9.1 You are not allowed to return to the area where you died for 1 hour after death. You may also not get involved in the hostile situation that lead to your death, for however long it lasts. Server restarts, crashes or other OOC events do not affect these restrictions or time limit.

As I said I did not get re-involved in the previous conflict, as it ended more than 30 minutes after my death. My body is also quite far away from the area, but can still be considered in it, I guess? The staff should decide that. My previous death, roughly an hour and ten minutes ago was above the forest at Gorka. Even if it is in the area, the staff can check the time between me returning and the death. As this rule states: 

9.2 When your character dies you must continue your role play as if you were wounded in the situation that lead to your death.

I did not use any kill rights to hunt down my killer as my killer was in fact @Wyoming
. We both shot at each other and apparently I later learned that he died as well. I would like to ask if he did die and has he kept the rule as I did and returned to the area after 1 hour or not, as @Centurion stated he was afk in the tents by the time I got there.

Now, I initiated on Centurion, not simply attacking him and @Centurion disobeyed what I told him on several occasions, would he just post the video with the situation from the beginning and not his biased version. He displayed bad RP in the said video by not showing ANY signs of pain whatsoever just a small little grunt, neither writing nor using voice when he got hit in the legs with the axe. In fact his character did some noises after I targeted the back area, much better roleplay in my opinion than he put out, by his character. I said "cutting his legs" and "don't make any loud noises" in a metaphorical way. I understand as well as anybody else, that getting hits from such a weapon is bound to make the target let out some noise, I mean "Don't scream too much", not as a direct command. 

Aside from my explanation about his video, if he shows the full thing he will clearly show himself disobeying some of my commands, the occasions where two where I tell him to lay down and put his hands up, but he role plays so inadequately to the point where I think, I might be wrong, but he messes the keys or I don't know what he attempts. He just clearly stands up after I told him to lay down and put his hands on his neck. That gave me an opportunity to put him down right then, but for the sake of roleplay I did continue it. I did not get satisfied by the outcome either, I expected him to have better reactions as I tried roleplaying the deranged injured guy who badly wanted revenge and he simply didn't do anything, just answering my questions with extreme simplicity, with a fear or some feeling, I don't know how to put it, that I don't get kill rights on him or something. He even screws up a few times as I said and gave me that opportunity. He displayed bad role play in my honest opinion.

Also as he said he wanted me to speak in TS his group member Wyoming started cussing me, but this seems a bit irrelevant because I was neither recording nor do I have any screenshots unfortunately. I just ask of the staff to request @Centurion to post his full video, I'm sure this is not everything he has. 

That's all the recording I have, you can see me start the recording at the beginning of the video and the reason my character stood up was because I pressed alt+z to bring up shadow play. Already said that was all the video I have here:

306c8f7041357b494aa7ae7c60b072c0.png

 

You can't demand someone to do something in a "metaphorical way". That doesn't make any sense and how the hell would I know that. You said dont make any loud noise, so I didn't.

 

I never said wyoming was at the tents, dont go putting words in my mouth. I stated he was in the area, not sure where since he went afk into another channel. 

35195eb4046cdf508afe9ef9292058bc.png

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You said he is afk in the tents while we were speaking in TS, but you said in the report itself that he was afk in the area

9.1 You are not allowed to return to the area where you died for 1 hour after death.

In that exact area did the fight where me and @Wyoming both died. I waited 1 hour until I returned and with a good IC reason, did he wait? Or did he lie that he died? This is why I'm requesting the checkup.

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7637e577fa7ecc08b96f34569dcc5b63.png

it says recording has started at 1 sec to prove thats everything. My comp froze after i tabbed out so I had to restart my computer which is why the recording stops weirdly. Sorry thats all i have.

Edited by Centurion

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POV- As stated in @Centurion POV I was AFK during this initiation until you hear me return to ask "what, what the hells going " after being contacted by @Gandhi who had heard the initiation happen when @Centurion hotmiced before having to put his hands up and stfu. I come bad not knowing what's going on, looked around for abit and found centurions body on the floor, took his gear placed it in a tent and waited for @Gandhi to arrive.

just to clarify, by AFK, I was within another channel with @VodkaWolf talking about something, tabbed out of the game paying no attention.

 

to answer @Shazzzam 's question I did indeed wait for an hour, upon returning I sat within the metal house by a fire, warming up and healing my wounds from the firefight.

 

im also going to clarify that the firefight which took place between me and @Shazzzam was not within alter radio station, it was around a 3ish minute run from alter radio station 

Edited by Wyoming
Adding to PoV after seeing replies

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@Shazzzam & @Centurion the video seems to show the situation from pretty much the beginning (missing the initiation and probably some form of RP).

How long, before the video starts, did the situation take.

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maybe a minute, two at the most.

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9 minutes ago, Wyoming said:
4 minutes ago, Hebi Kotei said:

@Shazzzam & @Centurion the video seems to show the situation from pretty much the beginning (we are missing the initiation).

How long, before the video starts, did the situation take.

POV- As stated in @Centurion POV I was AFK during this initiation until you hear me return to ask "what, what the hells going " after being contacted by @Gandhi who had heard the initiation happen when @Centurion hotmiced before having to put his hands up and stfu. I come bad not knowing what's going on, looked around for abit and found centurions body on the floor, took his gear placed it in a tent and waited for @Gandhi to arrive.

just to clarify, by AFK, I was within another channel with @VodkaWolf talking about something, tabbed out of the game paying no attention.

 

to answer @Shazzzam 's question I did indeed wait for an hour, upon returning I sat within the metal house by a fire, warming up and healing my wounds from the firefight.

 

im also going to clarify that the firefight which took place between me and @Shazzzam was not within alter radio station, it was around a 3ish minute run from alter radio station 

I would say 5-7 minutes? I mean, I tried giving him as much time as I could, but at parts he didn't even know what he was doing. He just randomly stood up and went back down, it's not just a one-time key miss click, he did it a few times but I ignored it so the roleplay can continue further.

The logs show it was more than 1-2 minutes, the time of initiation was in fact about the time I said since he was struggling with finding the right keys to roleplay the situation itself to the point where he asked me for them...

Edited by Shazzzam
Additional info

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5 minutes ago, Shazzzam said:

I would say 5-7 minutes? I mean, I tried giving him as much time as I could, but at parts he didn't even know what he was doing. He just randomly stood up and went back down, it's not just a one-time key miss click, he did it a few times but I ignored it so the roleplay can continue further.

I said the reason I stood up was because I pressed alt+z to start my recording which made me stand up. the only other thing was I didnt know what the hands up button was since I haven't played dayz in a long time.

 

edit:

1fc633a13e6253ca7397c92c36511e4d.png

Edited by Centurion

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Just now, Centurion said:

I said the reason I stood up was because I pressed alt+z to start my recording which made me stand up. the only other thing was I didnt know what the hands up button was since I haven't played dayz in a long time.

And the times where you didn't comply before that? Where you just put your hands on and off and on and off? Footage or not you are disrupting the roleplay. I decided to go with it but I could have killed you right there. Trust me I am as disappointed as you are from the roleplay, you literally replied with extreme shortage, only so you may be compliant. You literally said little to nothing, trying to make yourself immune to letting me have a chance to kill you. That is bad roleplay. I can even quote our conversation IC during the hostage rp word for word.

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the hands being put up and down is the animation. I only pressed f2 once, your hands get put down if you change stances. 

 

Again, when you, person with a gun pointing at my head and have already threatened to kill me for trying to talk, tell me not to make any loud noises, I'm not going to make any loud noises. Don't demand people to do things you dont want them to do, you think I enjoyed sitting there silently while you hit me. No, i didn't. I wanted to actually rp out hostilities but, again, you told me not to make any loud noise...

Edited by Centurion

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3 minutes ago, Centurion said:

the hands being put up and down is the animation. I only pressed f2 once, your hands get put down if you change stances. 

What do you mean it's the animation? You repeated that animation several times to the point I was confused where you will try to actually take me down with a weapon in you or what you were trying to perform? You gave me a few chances to have kill rights on you for not being compliant. Furthermore, in the video I even went as far as to ask you "How do you feel about your legs being cut off?". I was desperate to try to get an answer out of you but all you did was silence. I didn't tape your mouth or anything. I know it's powergaming to cut off your legs, trust me legs being cut off takes a lot more than one or two hits from a rusty axe, your character even got to the point where the bone was damaged but not completely out of the picture, meaning your legs were intact. It's simple intimidation to try to get some roleplay out of you. But even then I got none.

Edited by Shazzzam

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1 minute ago, Shazzzam said:

I would say 5-7 minutes? I mean, I tried giving him as much time as I could, but at parts he didn't even know what he was doing. He just randomly stood up and went back down, it's not just a one-time key miss click, he did it a few times but I ignored it so the roleplay can continue further.

Right. The thing is, both of your POVs align in such a way which suggests that a very small amount of RP was provided for a 5-7 minute situation. Are you sure that this lasted that long before the video started?

@Centurion and @Shazzzam cut it with the back and forth.

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I apologize. I am unsure if the direct RP lasted that much, but the situation certainly did unfold in something like 5 minutes if you count me tolerating his lack of in-game character command knowledge. I also justify the short amount of time with the following statement, because 5 minutes is not satisfying for me, to do a hostage RP - I just had the kill rights after his repeated incompliances coupled with the fact that he remained silent and answered short just to imitate compliancy.

Edited by Shazzzam
Corrected the sentence.

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6 minutes ago, Hebi Kotei said:

Right. The thing is, both of your POVs align in such a way which suggests that a very small amount of RP was provided for a 5-7 minute situation. Are you sure that this lasted that long before the video started?

@Centurion and @Shazzzam cut it with the back and forth.

I hit f2 then immediately started recording, he asked me one question before that. the "How many people are in the area?" question and thats it. Literally, the whole event was 5-7 minutes.

 

Also want to point out when he asked me the question, I attempted to rp with him about how specific he wanted and he told me he would shoot me in 5 seconds if I didn't say anything, so i just said a bunch of numbers between 3 and 5 just to give him an answer.

Edited by Centurion

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12 minutes ago, Shazzzam said:

 if you count me tolerating his lack of in-game character command knowledge.

 

I would cut with the attitude here if I were you, nobody is perfect, everyone forgets stuff.

12 minutes ago, Shazzzam said:

I also justify the short amount of time with the following statement, because 5 minutes is not satisfying for me, to do a hostage RP - I just had the kill rights after his repeated incompliances coupled with the fact that he remained silent and answered short just to imitate compliancy.

1

So 5 minutes is not satisfying for you to do hostage RP, so all you do at the end of the situation is say "I'm going to chop off your legs" and then proceed to do so leading to his death? You say he is replying shortly to "imitate compliancy" as well, how do you know better? He is answering you by omission at that point and is hence following your commands technically, is he not?

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1 minute ago, Hebi Kotei said:

I would cut with the attitude here if I were you, nobody is perfect, everyone forgets stuff.

So 5 minutes is not satisfying for you to do hostage RP, so all you do at the end of the situation is say "I'm going to chop off your legs" and then proceed to do so leading to his death? You say he is replying shortly to "imitate compliancy" as well, how do you know better? He is answering you by omission at that point and is hence following your commands?

I'm not having an attitude, If I was I would have killed him the moment he screwed up the keys the first time, which is not shown in the video. If I had in fact an attitude I would not help him OOC and tell him the correct key so he may role play unhindered. Am I displaying an attitude like that?

He did follow some of my commands, I went off to scare him with a few chops and saying that I would chop his legs off to see a reaction, that is my reply to his "powergaming" conviction, not that I am trying to belittle him or insult him for something. I know there are far far better roleplayers and I am in fact just a beginner. Do not take my above statements as arrogance or superiority over something or someone. In fact, my roleplay the other day with @Josei showed me how much I still have to learn and how much I am lacking both in voice and text roleplay. 

But this report is about a certain situation and by the above statements I have tried to justify why I proceeded in such a manner and stand my position as the defendant here. Also 5 minutes is in fact, short for me yes, but I would not hang a report over him saying "I report him for bad RP, it was too short and insufficient." I would just accept it and move on, there are good and bad situations and we must make the most of them. The question is, if I had not said that, for me 5 minutes is short of a hostage roleplay, would you not have accused me of being too quick on killing him? 

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You keep saying that you could have killed me for putting my hands down and that I had badrp because of it. The following video shows the animations of switching stances while you have your hands up, which will put your hands down during certain changes in stance. You can hear my keys being pressed as well to show that I am only pressing one button at a time.

 

 

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I understand this, what I am saying is that you did stand up from me telling you to lay down TWICE, not just once which is being shown in your video. 

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15 minutes ago, Shazzzam said:

I understand this, what I am saying is that you did stand up from me telling you to lay down TWICE, not just once which is being shown in your video. 

Yes, you told me to lay down twice. First time was at the beginning of the interaction/initiation, which I did immediately after I put my hands up like you told me too. The second time was because my character stood up when I pressed z to start my recording. You seriously would kill an unarmed hostage because he stood up on accident. Misclicks happen all the time, so it sounds like you just wanted to kill me because wyoming had killed you earlier. 

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16 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Yes, you told me to lay down twice. First time was at the beginning of the interaction/initiation, which I did immediately after I put my hands up like you told me too. The second time was because my character stood up when I pressed z to start my recording. You seriously would kill an unarmed hostage because he stood up on accident. Misclicks happen all the time, so it sounds like you just wanted to kill me because wyoming had killed you earlier. 

Do not twist my words. Your roleplay was bad in my eyes. You said almost nothing you contributed with little to it so I decided to end it. This is supported more by your video. I never told you to not talk, I provoked you to say something but perhaps out of fear your character lost the ability to talk or I don't know in what way to explain it to myself. I don't want to keep going back and forth with this, I will reply further only when requested by a staff member.

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1 hour ago, Shazzzam said:

Do not twist my words. Your roleplay was bad in my eyes. You said almost nothing you contributed with little to it so I decided to end it. This is supported more by your video. I never told you to not talk, I provoked you to say something but perhaps out of fear your character lost the ability to talk or I don't know in what way to explain it to myself. I don't want to keep going back and forth with this, I will reply further only when requested by a staff member.

ae5f9823b1989831fe77f818793bfff6.png
You literally state here "don't make any loud noises", so I didnt. I've stated that before and you continue to ignore or try to deflect the blame to me because you meant it Metaphorically. You dont get to kill someone just because you think their rp is bad, especially when you demand, while pointing a gun at my head, not to make any loud noises.
 
I'm down responding now, if staff need anything else, tell me.
Edited by Centurion

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Sorry as I am writing to the report again, but as the defendant here I would like to ask @Centurion , it did seem strange to me how you came to die. I remember I hit you until I knocked you unconscious and you still had pulse when I checked., I bandaged you and used tape to handcuff you. By the video if you pause at the end at the right moment it can be seen that you also went unconscious. However the moment I bandaged you, I checked your corpse again and you were dead even though the bleeding had stopped which makes no sense. I believe you pressed escape and clicked Respawn, but I might be wrong. This further confirms that I did not "kill" you. You purposely ended the role play. I am saying this to my defense.

I am unsure of this, could this theory be checked in logs? 

Edited by Shazzzam

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