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Server time: 2018-06-21, 06:14

Nihoolious

The Deal With It Attitude

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Nihoo, you done good kiddo.

Hard to find motivation to play when admins can just handle their own reports and permanently remove somebody from the community without following the proper procedures to make sure there is no bias, and that the report is done in a fair way.

If an admin were to handle their own report in 2017 or 2016, they would've been absolutely shit on and probably removed from staff, if not removed from the community. Now, it seems that there is no such thing as integrity. 

If you're going to be an admin that has the level of power they have, then they need to be someone who is calm and patient, not someone who lets their emotions dictate their actions. You can't just abuse your powers and expect people to be ok with it, or respect you. The actions that were taken reflect extremely poorly on the staff team. The community already doesn't like the staff team; this is just adding more legitimate reasons to not trust or respect the staff.

Edit: I would bean you but I gave all of mine away today.

Edited by DustyRP

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1 minute ago, DustyRP said:

Snip.

The rest of staff have nothing to do with a single admin's R4. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Taryn said:

The rest of staff have nothing to do with a single admin's R4. 

 

The admins are the leaders of the staff team and the community. Their actions do in fact reflect poorly on the rest of the staff team as well. 

If the people at the very top abuse their power, then it discredits the entire staff team. Why should people trust or respect the staff team if the admins, the ones who are supposed to lead by example, don't even follow the procedures they put in place to avoid bias and corruption?

Edited by DustyRP

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Yeah, even tho he thinks that its best for the community, and im mostly agreeing with all the changes he have lately made, he should think about the community opinion too.

But its not just Rolle and staff that needsa to change the attitude...

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Just now, DustyRP said:

The admins are the leaders of the staff team and the community. Their actions do in fact reflect poorly on the rest of the staff team as well. 

If the people at the very top abuse their power, then it discredits the entire staff team. Why should people trust or respect the staff team if the leaders, the ones who are supposed to lead by example, don't even follow the procedures they put in place to avoid bias and corruption?

I get your point, and see it from your point of view, but when the admins decide to R4, they dont ask the other staff. They just do it. As far as that goes, dont lump the rest of the staff in with them, for those decisions. They arent involved. 

That being said, let the vote speak for itself. 

 

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I feel it should just be black and white find out if something happened as it happened then act on it not letting emotions get involved seems unprofessional..... but then again this is a roleplay community and all i do is shitpo- I mean roleplay.

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14 minutes ago, Taryn said:

I get your point, and see it from your point of view, but when the admins decide to R4, they dont ask the other staff. They just do it. As far as that goes, dont lump the rest of the staff in with them, for those decisions. They arent involved. 

That being said, let the vote speak for itself. 

 

To reply to that as well. Admins do not consult other lower staff ranks when it comes to R4 because that is an admin only decision. However, Rule 4 cannot and has not ever been passed by one single judgement. It requires the entire admin team or majority vote in order to pass a Rule4 verdict. That being said We should not discredit the works of another for the mistakes of one. If the admin team fucked up we shouldnt distrust the GM team for it, or any other rank below them. Don't get me wrong I understand why you would distrust the other ranks as the admin team are the ones teaching the lower ranks. but it would still be unfair to the innocent to sentence them guilty by association. 

 

//Edit: Rolle is the only one that can pass a Rule 4 verdict single handedly. 

Edited by Ender

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My overhaul experience with staff recently has been poor and I'm starting to feel that they are out of touch with the community and this is very bad.

I would love to see staff say hey you made a mistake. Come talk to us on Teamspeak and let's try to figure this out instead of hitting them with the book and banning them. 

We need to find a middle ground and cooperate with each other If we do not do that then this community is doomed.

The fact that the GMs never got a chance to pull logs or the other accused couldn't even post their POVs just to be pushed away like that shows disrespect and I'm starting to doubt that community value even exists here.  

The guys that were banned put in countless hours of their lives here and some of them invested money so for one Admin to go hey fuck this Ima rule 4 you because you are arguing your case is ridiculous. 

I want to see change but I don't think it will happen. 

 

 

 

Edited by LouieRP

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I just woke up, but I can assure you that Aiko would not have been Rule 4ing any community memebers without support of other admins. I know how it might look, and feel free to not believe me, but I can assure you this was not an act of an admin gone rouge. Had Spartan or myself (had I been awake) had done it, I agree it would have looked better but the result would have been the same.

18 minutes ago, DustyRP said:

The admins are the leaders of the staff team and the community. Their actions do in fact reflect poorly on the rest of the staff team as well. 

If the people at the very top abuse their power, then it discredits the entire staff team. Why should people trust or respect the staff team if the admins, the ones who are supposed to lead by example, don't even follow the procedures they put in place to avoid bias and corruption?

This isn't necessarily an accurate way of thinking. Do you blame a US congressman's secretary for the poor actions of a president? Just slow it down and look at the perspective again.

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It is a response to the behavior and abuse we are exposed to from some of the community members. People constantly break rules, prioritize PvP above RP, abuse rule loop holes, behave badly, start drama, flame each other, start rumors. It's a constant work and uphill battle for staff to make this community a nice place to be and there's only that much we can take before we lose patience, stop being nice with 3 point warnings and cautions. We tried to be lenient, we introduced 0 point cautions and verbal warnings in threads, a lot of people who would have been permabanned just a year or two ago have been put on final warnings instead. But when a time comes when people push things too far we snap and we will not let things slide anymore. I guess more people are feeling this way, seeing Aikos decision to use rule 4 today. That's the reason I am in the "I am the law", "this is my house", "deal with it" attitude.

Remember that administrators are leaders of this community, they set rules that you must follow, they allow you to play here in the first place by accepting your whitelist, they are the law. They have rule 4 to their disposal to remove anyone, at any time, for any reason they see fit should they see the behavior harmful to the community and no staff procedure, sticky thread, rule on the rule page or popular opinion can stop them. The only thing that can is majority vote from the rest of the admin team (the only democracy in this community) or my personal veto.

Rule 4 has always allowed administrators to remove people from the community and bypass any and all restrictions. Yes, all admins follow the procedure to not get involved in own groups reports or appeals to prevent conflict of interest. However use of rule 4 is a special circumstance that does not require following that procedure. So you are severely misinformed saying that "back in X an admin would get in trouble", when rule 4 goes into effect everything else is disregarded. That's the whole point with rule 4 - to bypass unnecessary bureaucracy and allow a few trusted people to remove troublemakers from the community swiftly and efficiently. So no, what Aiko did is fully acceptable and in line with rule 4 use, she is an administrator and she has full, unquestionable authority to use rule 4 the way she did. And she came to me ask for my opinion about it and get my approval and I told her to go ahead with rule 4 if she believed it was justified, since she knows best what happened and I trust her judgement. So no, she didn't really do it on her own without asking anyone first.

Now, whether in this case rule 4 had to result in an instant permanent ban, that is an entire different question, which will undoubtedly be discussed in the admin team in the very near future.

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46 minutes ago, Nihoolious said:

I made a poll so that me and my buddies can vote NO and skew the view the overall community has.

Fixed that for you.

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1 minute ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

Fixed that for you.

Ease up there, people are upset and have the right to voice their opinions. Knock off the hardbody attitude, mkay?

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12 minutes ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

Fixed that for you. So i can make myself look like a good weirdassboy in the eyes of the admin team.

Fixed that for you

Edit: it was ineffective

Edited by OskuRP

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5 minutes ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

Fixed that for you.

Actually you just projected your own biases by making this reply. The only person I told I was making this thread was Shroud who already agreed with what I was saying in ts. But if you want to dismiss a differing opinion by saying a poll is fake go ahead. 

You actually are the dayz rp equivalent of people who think Russia hacked the American election to determine the outcome. 

Edited by Nihoolious

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My main issue is the fact that Aiko handled the report at hand, she put up the report, didn't allow logs to be posted and then R4'd them. The entire situation comes off as bias and unprofessional to the point where it does not sit right with me. It goes against procedure for the reports, for the staff member (apparently this only applies to GMs and below) to judge their own case but it happened anyway in this one. She shouldn't have closed the report with an R4, let alone be in the discussion for it.

On the fact of the actual R4, I will withhold my opinion on it until some evidence comes to light on the actual report, we have permed people for trolling before regardless of point history and other factors.

11 minutes ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

Fixed that for you.

Cos I'm "bias" right? This is some top-notch attitude here ;) 

"Exemplo Ducemus" - "By example, shall we lead" - Motto of the Royal Military Police, BAF

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21 minutes ago, Ender said:

To reply to that as well. Admins do not consult other lower staff ranks when it comes to R4 because that is an admin only decision. However, Rule 4 cannot and has not ever been passed by one single judgement. It requires the entire admin team or majority vote in order to pass a Rule4 verdict. That being said We should not discredit the works of another for the mistakes of one. If the admin team fucked up we shouldnt distrust the GM team for it, or any other rank below them. Don't get me wrong I understand why you would distrust the other ranks as the admin team are the ones teaching the lower ranks. but it would still be unfair to the innocent to sentence them guilty by association. 

 

//Edit: Rolle is the only one that can pass a Rule 4 verdict single handedly. 

I didnt mean to imply that Aiko's decision was single handed. What I meant is that they (the admins) discuss amongst themselves and then execute their decisions without consulting other staff and that said "other staff" should not be discredited because of admins' decisions. 

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"Back in my days" as an Admin I hat to rule4 from time to time WITHOUT discussing it, simply because of the fact that no one was around and this does not mean that the other admins did not discuss my decision afterwards, reversed it or agreed. I did this because I felt the community will get harmed or has been harmed. That's how rule4 can be used by Admins - like Rolle already explained.

If it was a good move from Aiko to use rule4 in her own report is another question.

Was she allowed, aside the normal protocol to use rule4 (in her own report)? - Yes.

Was it a good decision? - In my opinion No.

= these are two different topics.

 

Edited by Terra

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56 minutes ago, Taryn said:

The rest of staff have nothing to do with a single admin's R4. 

 

An admins duty isn't to just agree with bans, its their job to also help the community grow by speaking their mind and actually making change.

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I'll keep this as brief as possible, but I'm glad to see an r4 finally being used. Should Aiko have been the one to do it? Hell no! It just reeks of bias, even if it isn't there. Politically it just wasn't a good move. 

Onto the point of this thread though... Let me says this as nice as possible... I left this community for the most part because of the constant drama and harassment that was going on, with a good bit of the drama directed at me. Believe me whenever I say I heard all the shit you people have said about me to people you thought you can trust. Not naming names, you know exactly who you are. 

Simply, the quality of RP went down the tubes because admins and GMs werent verdicting as strictly as they should, and the community as a whole became even more of a cesspit than it was and not a damn thing was done about it. My criticism of the admins and Rolle isn't like yours, where you hate his "my way" attitude. I love it, and I want to see more of it. Then maybe finally after the dust settles we can recover. 

Edited by Joules
Stupid phone and its auto complete

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23 minutes ago, Taryn said:

I didnt mean to imply that Aiko's decision was single handed. What I meant is that they (the admins) discuss amongst themselves and then execute their decisions without consulting other staff and that said "other staff" should not be discredited because of admins' decisions. 

It seems like your backtracking. At the end of the day the decision should have been made by someone not involved in the report, and by multiple admins.

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3 minutes ago, Alexis said:

It seems like your backtracking. At the end of the day the decision should have been made by someone not involved in the report, and by multiple admins.

Nah, seems like someone misunderstood what I said and I was clarifying. 

1 hour ago, Taryn said:

but when the admins decide to R4, 

admins. Multiple. 

 

That being said, I agree with Nihoolious, Dusty and you (along with the rest).

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2 minutes ago, Taryn said:

Nah, seems like someone misunderstood what I said and I was clarifying. 

admins. Multiple. 

 

That being said, I agree with Nihoolious, Dusty and you (along with the rest).

Nah, seems like you didn't know what you were saying and had to backtrack to save yourself .. Listen, thanks for agreeing with me, but your opinion up there told me otherwise lol.

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5 minutes ago, Alexis said:

Nah, seems like you didn't know what you were saying and had to backtrack to save yourself .. Listen, thanks for agreeing with me, but your opinion up there told me otherwise lol.

My opinion on the vote agrees with you and everyone else I named (I was second to vote), as does my post. You seem lost, sweetheart. 

We (staff that arent admins) have nothing to do with the R4 process. As previously stated, and as I clarified to Ender, the R4 was not a single handed vote. It was backed by @Rolle. The other admins werent present, as stated by @Oliv that he and @Spartan were not present. 

I dont believe that even @JimRP was there as he seemed just as confused as the rest of staff when it happened. 

If you'd like to continue this discussion, you're more than welcome to step into my messages or meet me on TS. You know, where you were in a room with me ans @Honeybee earlier and I expressed to him I was upset about the 5 people being banned?

Yep. 

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I think there is some confusion on what I am against there. To clarify I didn't make this thread to question the use of Rule 4 in general. Its a rule thats been around since I joined the community in 2013 and I saw it exercised soon after joining with the mass ban of SKA. I understand its purpose and why it exists, for important issues that need to be dealt with in a way the traditional process can't do. Why I don't agree with is how it has been used recently with the Aiko report being one of the biggest offenses that can be seen by the public, I'm sure there are some questionable final warnings I don't know about.

15 minutes ago, Joules said:

My criticism of the admins and Rolle isn't like yours, where you hate his "my way" attitude. I love it, and I want to see more of it. Then maybe finally after the dust settles we can recover. 

Picture this for me:

You believe yourself to be a rule abiding member of the community. You are roleplaying within the rules to your knowledge and behaving on the forums in a similar way. However, the admin team says you made a mistake and you are given a punishment through Rule 4. This could be points, a final warning or permanent ban. You cannot contest this punishment, it is set in stone. You don't think you did anything wrong but the admins exercised their right to deal with you in the way they saw fit. Now imagine this same thing is happening to other people, maybe even your friends for reason you don't agree with. 

Would you still have the same opinion over the Deal With It attitude then?

Edited by Nihoolious

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