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Server time: 2018-08-14, 08:57 WE ARE RECRUITING

MatthewFC

A rebuke to our behavior

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Yes! Thank you for speaking out.  This scenario also made me think it was way over kill....how can a group of 20 truly give good RP to 3 individuals...and yea it looked more like bullying to me too.

I met two of this group's members at the well in Olsha a couple days ago and I found their RP to be just fine.  One was very ill and honestly, he RP'd puking and shitting his guts out better than I've seen veterans do it.

Thank you for your post.

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Not saying that this is what you are claiming or calling for, but are we supposed to just treat people like little lambs and leave them alone? As said in the report, this "republic" was near an existing group's borders. Anybody that is a foreigner in Chernarus better have the force to back up any so-called "republic". Now, if these guys had done their little project a bit more under wraps then they might not have gotten duked on. Plenty of people are loudmouths and many have the force to back it up. Others don't. It's also a zombie apocalypse. Not the best idea to go about things the way they did. We shouldn't hold people's hand, and frankly it creates a situation where a turf war could occur which creates a story arc and furthers rp. 

If people have been shitting on them in TS then that's another issue. People are entitled to their own opinions, but at the same time we do need to try and ensure we create an environment where people feel open to do these sorts of things. I don't think we are in danger of driving people away by being nice and polite IC.

It doesn't matter if there are 20 vs. 3. There is still plenty of opportunity for great hostage rp, and in this case one of the hostages fled after being given ample time to return before being killed. Was the rp bad? Maybe, video evidence will confirm it one way or another, but I know the people involved and I feel as if the rp was top notch. People are going to do propaganda and bitch at each other over the radio, which is very realistic in any war situation, especially in the case of non-military vs. non-military. Go look at Twitter and you can see plenty of people on both sides in wars like Ukraine and Syria blasting each other with insults and jokes.

No 3 man group should proclaim a republic unless they want to die or be driven underground, which could create a story if they rise up. We shouldn't treat people like little birds because they might have an IC effort crushed by a bigger group. We have a safe-zone you know. ;)

If you have any proof of people talking smack then you should probably reference it as opposed to just saying you heard something in TS. All that stuff does is create hot topic border-line flamey threads that drag on for pages. There will always be elitism, but we need to be sure we separate IC and OOC and be very clear when we call people out for things like this.

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This annoys me "How can a group of 20 truly give good rp to a group of 3" really? It actually extremely easy... like in real life you have your main instigators and your followers okay maybe 20 is a bit excessive but doesn't stop you giving good rp. Honesty if DayZ didn't have it's loot respawning about now supplies would be running low so yes 20 guys would run over a camp of 3 and take their supplies because the strong take from the weak.

 

I have another question IC why should them being new change your rp at all? In my opinion that is bad rp honestly not roleplaying your character properly because of OOC reasons.

Edit:

Reading more into this history between these two groups it seems they had already exchanged bullets so honestly hostilities have full justification 

Edited by Jinx

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Well, if 20 people came to my party and held me hostage, tortured me then killed me. I think that would be pretty cool IF the reason was there. New player or not, it's not like these people have the server list up and look at everyone's name and forums account for how much experience they have. Not all newer players know how to RP and some do that's the line. Now lets not start throwing OOC terms at the walls for IC reasons because that is silly and to be honest unjustified.

Going overkill on 3 people isn't a bad idea tbh, realistically if I knew I was going after 3 armed men I knew were dangerous fuck i'd have 100 people backing me up if I could all armed and ready to move at a moments notice, "Bullying" is not a word that should be used here. As a hostile RPer myself I don't see how from the core of the subject you seem to be referencing makes any sense, BUT like I said as long as the justification is there anything goes.

If a big group of 20 people want to rob 3 men to gain power over the area or country, sure that's enough sense if it is organised and is plausible. If anything it could start a branch of excellent RP, I feel this is leaning more towards the "Don't hurt us! We are just at our camp fires, back of you masked thieves" you feel me..? These just seem like hollow and very vague points you are making but when they come to the core its just another shout to let OOC mess with IC by saying they are "New to the wasteland..?" which i'm sure you're not trying to get at. If things make sense, it doesn't matter how overboard anyone goes. Not to the extent of "Bullying" unless it is IC Bullying but who cares if its IC?

Now if 20 men joined there TS channel and shit on them consistently that's bullying, nothing IC emotions should ever be taken OOC because that just leads to issues and has on numerous occasions within the community.

As for another point in this, you are right. We should be teaching new players not reporting them all, BUT (once again) there is a line. Some newer players aren't all angels and some need to learn the hard way (I know I sure did). If things can be talked out, point them in the right direction to the mentor system (That no one seems to use because self improvement is a threat to their independence or something) and not just the mentor system, other community members should be taking initiative and offering feedback and constructive criticism to members not just shitting on them when the RP isn't up to someone's standard. 

Heres some evidence of many people taking the lucky number 3 hostage. @Tony stop making me reference your videos.

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This really isn't a problem at all. These guys made a radio post where the leader started to bid dick a little bit about his group and his 'republic'. On this server, it's usually the ones who big dick the most who get their asses handed to them and that's exactly what happened. This is also exactly what would happen in real life. Now one of them is banned and I can't necessarily speak for the others but honestly, an event like that would excite me; in their first week of being on this server, they became somewhat relevant. They did what most of weren't able to do when we were that young. If they can't take having their camp attacked and them being in the spotlight then maybe this server isn't the best place for them.

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From someone who was actually there, we had every reason to initiate on them. We had some really good RP going up until the suspect of said report decided to NVFL simply because he didn't like us OOC.

As Major said, why should we treat people like little lambs? My first day on the server, I got tortured by @Galaxy and had lots of fun. Pre lore wipe, I would somehow manage to get initiated once every other hour and yet I still had a lot of fun.

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I'm going to treat everybody on this server equal in the sense that I don't care if it's your first day on the server, or your 500th. If I'm a hostile RPer (I am, by the way) then I am going to Hostile RP you if I feel like you should be. These guys, as stated previously, big dicked plenty of people, but my group (Well, Sleepy's group) in particular, so they took it into their own hands and showed them who's boss.

On my first day on the server way back when, I got "befriended" by somebody, who then turned around and robbed me blind. It doesn't matter if you're brand new, we're all equals in terms of RP.

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Having given the report, as well as the other reports, in question a cursory glance, it seems that most of what happened had decent IC reasoning behind it. The relationship between the two parties OOC might have been up for debate due to recent reports, but I don't think we should let people's OOC mindsets dictate how we act in role-play.

I'm not certain if there was some element of OOC resentment spurring on the actions of either side, but gauging from the relations they demonstrated on the forums, it wouldn't surprise me in the least; and if that does prove to be true its honestly quite pathetic to let that sort of pettiness overcome you. However, if somebody can get 20 people together to go fuck with another faction, attempt to dominate them and see them under their hegemony, more power to them, 20 people is difficult to organise especially with such a polarised community. Likewise, if somebody can band some friends together to create a republic, announce it and claim territory, they should be more than willing to defend it and accept the IC consequences as a result of their IC actions, be they positive or negative. Lord knows we need more people willing to do something with themselves, and others, as opposed to just staying in their camps, playing with themselves while they moan about how stale RP is.

Our IC actions should remain untouched by our OOC motivations, that's how a mature role-playing community is supposed to work. The mentor program is there for people who wish to break away from that 'pub' mindset, in favour of a more RP oriented mindset. The only responsibility we have to the newer members is providing them with excellent role-play, whilst remaining unjudgemental of their role-play, whether or not we like it.

So, TL;DR, I don't think we should tailor our IC actions to suit the newer community members, only provide the very best roleplay we can, in a style that suits our characters, and in turn demonstrate to them the mindset they should have.

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People, I don't have a set position over this issue, don't get all defensive about this. I communicated my impressions at reading the case and worrying about what the unintended effects might be. Maybe "rebuke" is a strong word and I apologize for that. I also think @Iso and @Galaxy make very good points.

I met @Polat on what may have been his first day on the server. He clearly was very new to RP and needed a few pointers, so I made him jump on my TS channel and gave them to him. Now, I have met newcomers to DayZRP that are experienced at Roleplay that will take all and any good interaction as positive, provided the RP is good. That's not the case when someone is new at both DayZRP and RP as a whole. They will still hold onto that "pub mentality", as some call it, and tie ingame success to fun as I said before. It is a learning experience to lose IC and be able to enjoy it. But many of you cited small examples of IC loss as new players, not comparable in scale to what happened this time around. Scale is important, psychologically.

I certainly hope Polat and the others non-banned players enjoyed the experience and will come back for more. Maybe they were thirsting for relevance as some of you declare to do. I trust that the names and names of veterans piled up in this situation gave their best RP. But I can't help but think that most newcomers on the same situation will feel extremely frustrated and decide not to come back. Was the IC justification enough, coming from people that may not have known them for more than just days? Is this an example of big dicking on the radio, when he mocked the very title he gave himself in public on his second transmission? Or they just irked people on an OOC level and made others jump to act thus..? After all, we see far worse "big dicking" over the radio daily and no parties of half the server gather to put those people down.

My own point, again, is that it's a matter of scale. And I'm afraid we went far overboard in our IC response to little IC justification. Should we fix this? I really can't come up with a solution that doesn't damage RP. But it warrants being brought up as we are a shrinking community and I'm certain this is gonna damage our capability to retain new players in the long run.

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The entire premise of your post seems to be that by ganging up and dunking on the smaller group of new community members, we are somehow discouraging them, and by either leaving them alone or "letting them win" it would encourage them instead. I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

The fact of the matter is they weren't discouraging them, they were RPing with them. If you are going to be a community member here at DayzRP I really don't care if you're brand new or you've been here since dayz mod days, you should understand, accept, and enjoy the fact that sometimes you're going to be the "winner" of an RP scenario and sometimes your character is going to be the "loser" who gets defeated, maybe tortured, perhaps even shot or possibly executed. You as a player need to understand that you can absolutely have fun even if your character is suffering.

Can you imagine how boring it would be to watch a movie where the main character wins every fight, defeats every villain immediately and convincingly, and is never outsmarted, outwitted, or outgunned? A character NEEDS to taste defeat, they need to suffer, they need to be brought close to death in order for their story to be interesting and for them to be a character worth caring about. I know it sounds corny but you should be THANKING those who provide stellar hostile RP, not complaining about it. 

Most of all, the separation between player and character needs to be made clear. I could be getting my foot sawed off while my friend is being burned alive by some crazy clowns, but if we're all able to enjoy the entertaining RP and appreciate the effort and creativity being put into it by the hostile party then what's not to love? The only time things get salty is when people take what happens to their character way too personally and assume the other person has some personal beef with them.

TL:DR: It's a game, have fun whether you're winning or losing.

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It's all IC so I have absolutely no problem with what went down. That being said, I'm not super familiar with the situation, but if they had a valid reason to initiate, the RP was fine, and no rulebreaks or OOC hate or flaming occurred, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with what went down.

People need to separate what happens in game and out of game, and if they can't do that, then that is their problem to deal with.

As was pointed out by another person, if you're a foreigner and are setting up a 'republic' - actually if you're anyone, and you're setting up a republic, then you must have the forces to back you up. If you make a group, expect anyone or everyone to want to kill you, and be ready for it to happen. If someone like this is happening, a large group of people steamrolling smaller groups, then those smaller groups should band together and deal with it in game instead of jumping immediately to OOC means.

That is actually cancer - dealing with IC things that do not break the rules, through the forums or reports. Stop trying to stop some form of RP happening just because you don't like it. If there is actually no rules broken, then let what happened stay IC and ingame. 

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I can see where you are coming from OP about trying not to scare off new people. But these new people also have to realize that there IC actions do have consequences, they always do. And reading though what I could bear to read it seems as though they in characterly deserved whatever happened.  This happened to me when I first joined the community, mouthing off to big groups and what not getting myself in shit, it is something everyone goes through if they're playing for excitement. Honestly if those people stick through it though and keep with the role play those are the ones that you really want to keep anyway. Not the ones that get salty and leave.  

So in a sense I completely understand where you are coming from but I do not think that there is a real issue. 

Now that I have been constructive on a post let me meme as well.

1 hour ago, Dusty said:

That is actually cancer

Settle down sweaty boi, mans thinking with the community in mind; people skills remember that. 

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Now I've looked at this groups ideas and I have to say its a shame it will never never take off. It had the opportunity to become something but like we've been seeing for a while now groups are just looked down upon or just not even looked into. Had there been more incentives to groups then I'm sure these guys may have made up numbers and been able to back up their groups idea (already mentioned this in @Red thread that more needs to be done to give groups greater power over dynamics and more reasons to be made hopefully we can get the ball rolling on this).

Now in terms of this thread its a simple no, special treatment should not be given to newer players and I've always been for this. These guys pushed to become big too early without the proper foundations in place (once again due to the lack of people interested in joining groups, especially the newer members of the community that you feel should be protected). It is obvious that these members were biting off more than they could chew, its not bullying IC wise. 20 vs 3 will happen if you start to try and throw weight around without things in place, they could have easily built up numbers before going public, made alliances with other groups by signing treaties that involve aid during hostile encounters.

For some reason over the last few years groups have become separated and no longer function by working together to form defences, trade and other benefits. This once again comes down to group rules, requirements and rewards/benefits seriously needing a re-work to make them look inviting to be created or joined and allow once again for the imagination to run wild. 

I've seen some of the attitude given by one of these individuals and I have to say I'm glad he is gone, if he has that attitude on the forums then he doesn't deserve a place here in the community because he got pissed off with what happened in a game. ICly people will always take from the weak, that's how things work. Numbers mean nothing, I've had a 15 man group on the server in the past and got dunked on by 2 groups totalling 30. We didn't quit we worked on it, started to build up allies and plan our defences (and at times Altar castle held out very well). 

Learn from history or you'll be doomed to repeat it, if these guys decide to quit over an IC incident without working on it and building things to be better then they obviously wasn't ready to be in this community, its a shame but everyone, new and old need to realise that ICly you will get dunked on from time to time, its just the server storyline progression.

Now if a lot of insults were done against them OOC via TS or PM's then this is bullying as its simply harassing them for their IC behaviour. Remember IC and OOC are completely different, you can be complete dicks to people IC and be friends OOC, infact its encouraged. SVR and CRA were always bitter enemies on the Mod servers, some took to being enemies OOC aswell with petty arguments but a majority of us new who was on the other team and would congratulate them on a good firefight or just simply have a laugh and play some CSGO together after.  

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6 hours ago, MatthewFC said:

People, I don't have a set position over this issue, don't get all defensive about this. I communicated my impressions at reading the case and worrying about what the unintended effects might be. Maybe "rebuke" is a strong word and I apologize for that. I also think @Iso and @Galaxy make very good points.

I met @Polat on what may have been his first day on the server. He clearly was very new to RP and needed a few pointers, so I made him jump on my TS channel and gave them to him. Now, I have met newcomers to DayZRP that are experienced at Roleplay that will take all and any good interaction as positive, provided the RP is good. That's not the case when someone is new at both DayZRP and RP as a whole. They will still hold onto that "pub mentality", as some call it, and tie ingame success to fun as I said before. It is a learning experience to lose IC and be able to enjoy it. But many of you cited small examples of IC loss as new players, not comparable in scale to what happened this time around. Scale is important, psychologically.

I certainly hope Polat and the others non-banned players enjoyed the experience and will come back for more. Maybe they were thirsting for relevance as some of you declare to do. I trust that the names and names of veterans piled up in this situation gave their best RP. But I can't help but think that most newcomers on the same situation will feel extremely frustrated and decide not to come back. Was the IC justification enough, coming from people that may not have known them for more than just days? Is this an example of big dicking on the radio, when he mocked the very title he gave himself in public on his second transmission? Or they just irked people on an OOC level and made others jump to act thus..? After all, we see far worse "big dicking" over the radio daily and no parties of half the server gather to put those people down.

My own point, again, is that it's a matter of scale. And I'm afraid we went far overboard in our IC response to little IC justification. Should we fix this? I really can't come up with a solution that doesn't damage RP. But it warrants being brought up as we are a shrinking community and I'm certain this is gonna damage our capability to retain new players in the long run.

ur the best man thanks for helping i appreciate it brotha.

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8 hours ago, MatthewFC said:

So, I read this report here: 

 

It's justified and everything, I won't go discussing the validity of said report...

What worries me is the underlying circumstances of the report: Several groups numbering over 20 people went to steamroll some new community member's camp, made fun of them, tortured them, stole their gear, killed one of them, and squashed their dreams. I don't think a single one of the "Shakhovians" had over 10 days on the server. And I can only hope the non-banned ones will remain a few days more at best.

Veterans know that bad things happening to your character can be an enjoyable experience, but people new to RP might not know. No, they most likely don't feel that way at all. It takes time for a new RPer on this community to discard their attachment to gear and IC success as the needed requisites for having fun. In fact, just jump on radio chatter and you'll see some so called veterans that still argue their asses off on who had the most IC success in the last firefight... thus the most fun? Maybe some never discard that attachment at all, but I digress.

So, is this way how we will be welcoming new players? By immediately destroying their (in our experienced eyes, nonsensical) little projects and waving our huge e-penises around them? Showing them their IC place waaaay below us and just generally being assholes and bullies. It was some camp in a town in the middle of nowhere, no matter whatever grandiloquent name it may have had. Some hostility may have made a lot of sense IC, but this amount? For people that might not have set up around there for more than just days? How did the community become this toxic towards newcomers? Did their way of dressing, the fact they DARED make their little project public over the radio and any failures they might have had at portraying super-believable and fun characters to be around with, something that irked you so deep that all of this was justified? I mean, I can almost hear what the TS chatter was in some circles the last couple days, calling these new players all types of  "cancer" and the possibility of having them banned all righteous and deserved.

Shouldn't we have been teaching them? Encourage them to innovate whilst improving their RP? I mean, we are not getting all that many new players on this pre-patch slump that we can afford to be all that picky and maintain the community. Aren't new players something to treasure, at all? Because like this, frustration is gonna take most of them away.

You know people, I know that I'm writing myself into a corner. Because there's no rule that might solve this without seriously undermining RP freedom and the ability of players to create new situations and even hostilities. At least I don't think so. But we need a little bit of change.

And that change should come from within the community itself.

thanks man we had almost 20 players in shakhova. my friend got sad and he banned him self from the community. 

8 hours ago, Peg4YourBackpack said:

Yes! Thank you for speaking out.  This scenario also made me think it was way over kill....how can a group of 20 truly give good RP to 3 individuals...and yea it looked more like bullying to me too.

I met two of this group's members at the well in Olsha a couple days ago and I found their RP to be just fine.  One was very ill and honestly, he RP'd puking and shitting his guts out better than I've seen veterans do it.

Thank you for your post.

i wasn't even there brother they were 2 my friend and my real life brother anaconda.

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We have to look at what the alternative could be.
- Do we come up with some sort of grace period for new players where they will be left alone whilst playing?
- How will we do something like this?
- What stops people abusing the grace period to talk shit over and over to much larger factions who have established themselves and have gained a reputation.

I totally get what the OP is getting at though. Being steamrolled in the first weeks of joining here is never fun. Hell, I got really pissy the third time I got robbed in my first few weeks of joining the community. (granted all of those hold ups would now with todays rules never be valid) that being said however, it's almost as if it's a rite of passage so to speak. If you manage to make it through and if you stop putting worth in the equipment you manage to accquire over time, it will be a lot easier to handle with robberies.

Also, what I see A LOT lately is that people aren't thinking about alternative ways to avoid conflict. The gun is 9 out of 10 times preferred. I would personally recommend trying to talk/weasel your way out of a situation. Think outside of the box. 

 

In a way, I do agree with Dusty that if things are happening IC that you are not happy about (and they are within the rules) then an IC solution should be sought out. Talk to other players, see if you can find likeminded people who are willing to resist against a larger force. If people are not willing to, change your plan. Figure out a way how you can be safe. Perhaps not be as obvious with making tent camps and what not. remain low profile, blend in with other people when you go into town.

 

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its not 20 on 3 it was more than 20 guy on 2 incent ppl. ahh what ever thanks matthew,i was the guy who made the camp in shonshovka.

Edited by Anaconda

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and to make this clear i wasn't even there they were literally just 2  not 3.

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The number of people doesn't exactly matter... you guys tried to claim an area without means to defend it at all that's all that happened. We shouldn't give new players grace periods or extra protection because let's be honest it will be abused like say we had those protections for them and their town would that mean no one can attack and stop them claiming that area? 

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This seems realllllly aids... just play the videogame and keep IC and OOC things separate if you can't then you probably shouldn't play tbh.

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@MatthewFC you say a 'new community group' was steamrolled but surely that is the wrong way of looking at it as that is OOC. As others have said if you look at it in an IC way which would be a larger group taking down a smaller group that had just laid claim to an area (which could have already be claimed). This shouldn't be a surprise and to be honest as harsh as it is, it happens. As long as there are IC reasons, it can be justified and the RP was good, then I'm sorry to say it doesn't matter how long that group has been established.

Don't get me wrong 20 vs 2 seems a little heavy handed, but there is strength in numbers and people will play the numbers game. The new group used public radio frequency to announce itself, number one mistake. If people want a group to survive longer than a week then group could use a private radio frequency between themselves and both recruit IC and on the forum should they wish. Claiming an area without the means and numbers to defend it is also a mistake, as people will come an take a look and those people will include hostile ones.

Again the separation between IC and OOC is blurred here. IC'ly, it happens and you have to deal with it or do something about it IC'ly. Having some kind of protection or 'spawn timer' for new groups is something that is OOC and something I have to disagree with. If community members or a group are going to be put off from getting in game because they keep dying or their group got wiped out in the first few days then I think they are in the wrong community and don't really want that 'realism' they came here to find. People cannot have it both ways, come here for the realism but need some sort of a new community member  protection, sorry I don't think so. That may sound harsh but if and individual or a group wants to play it safe and have a chance to establish themselves then they need to do it quietly at first. I have been in this community a while and before the lore wipe I can count on one hand the amount of times I died IC (that includes being in and leading groups), sometimes it is how you play. There is always a choice, if people make enemies IC or they act in a certain way then they are subject to the IC consequences that then takes place, within the rules of course.

Remember it is how you respond to a IC situation will then dictate it's outcome whether that being on your own or in a group. Comply and you live, raise your gun then the outcome is different and more than often than not fatal. The learning curve at DayZRP can be steep at time but if you persist you will really start to enjoy every situation you find yourself in whether that is friendly or hostile (well hopefully). It can be really hard for new community members, I get that, but to go through the long whitelisting process and then not play because of what has happened IC'ly seems a little silly.

Ultimately, we the community and staff are here to help but that is OOC'ly. What happens in game is dictated by it's characters (again within the rules of course :D).

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4 hours ago, Jinx said:

The number of people doesn't exactly matter... you guys tried to claim an area without means to defend it at all that's all that happened. We shouldn't give new players grace periods or extra protection because let's be honest it will be abused like say we had those protections for them and their town would that mean no one can attack and stop them claiming that area? 

how can we defend our town and there is 20 pepole in it and were only just 2 ?

that rp made no sense for me  ill say like 5 maximum is fine but not like 20 .

i feel like they were playing  OOC for me.

 

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