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Server time: 2017-11-20, 04:04

Rolle

Baiting

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bait
beɪt/
verb
gerund or present participle: baiting
  1. 1.
    deliberately annoy or taunt (someone).

 

DayZRP rules say:

  • 6.4 You may not bait other players into situations where you use kill rights or self-defense (see rule 7.2) due to their response to your provoking actions.

This rule was created to prevent scenarios that include, but are not limited to following situations:

 

1. You leave a vehicle/valuable items at location and go away while keeping overwatch on the things you left from afar. Another player stumbles upon your vehicle/items and takes them. You initiate on the person and rob them from their items, or you straight out kill them because they are technically stealing your belongings which is a hostile action. You get banned for baiting, as you may not leave vehicles or items unattended and then claim them to be yours when someone in good faith takes them in belief that they do not belong to anyone or that the owner is not around.

 

2. You steal something from another player in a situation where:

  • The item is of insignificant value or is not valuable enough to you to justify the need to steal it
  • There is no IC reason to steal the item or it does not make sense in the current situation to be stealing things from other players
  • You stealing the item would put you directly at risk of getting caught (for example stealing right in front of a player, surrounded by their allies)

After you steal something, the person or allies of the person you stole from obviously confront you about it and either initiate or directly engage you (which is fair and understandable considering stealing is a hostile action). You, or your group then use self defense as a reason to kill the people you stole from. You get banned for baiting, as acting in a way that provokes another player to initiate on you and using that as means to gain self-defense kill rights is considered baiting.

 

3. You are at a hotspot location where a lot of players gather. You block a path leading to that area by for example blocking a road with a vehicle or stand with your character in a doorway. You do not initiate on anyone or act hostile towards anyone, but you don't move either, making it impossible for other players to pass. Finally, after talking and reasoning with you has failed to get you to move, someone initiates on you and tells you to move or you will die. You or your group use self defense kill rights to kill the initiating party. You get banned for baiting, as acting in a way that leaves other players no other choice but to initiate on you due to your behavior in order to continue their regular RP is considered baiting.

 

4. Two groups are hostile towards each other. Your group knows the position of the second group, so they send you in alone to their location so that you get initiated on and are taken hostage. Meanwhile, the rest of your group takes positions around the area in anticipation of the initiation. You get initiated on and draw the other group out of their cover. Your group then fires and kills the opposing group with ease, as your group didn't have to go through the risk of having to initiate on them and you helped to draw them out of defensive positions. You get banned for baiting, as risking your life and using tactics where people are sent in as bait straight to the enemy in order to gain self-defense kill rights for your group is considered baiting.

 

Also, in all of these situations, as per rule 7.4, any kill rights gained from the baiting are invalidated and any killers from your group will also get punished for any invalid kills that may have been gained from baiting. Baiting is also a 5 day ban offense now.

Of course, baiting can be done in many ways, but it's usually easy to spot since it has very close links with rule play (killing people simply because the rules allow you to - rule 7.5), NVFL (risking your life for something meaningless, just to gain kill rights for your group - rule 5.6) or disregard for fair play (using any kind of advantage that the rules may give you, even if it doesn't make sense IC or is not considered ethical/fair play OOC - rule 5.3).

I hope this clears it up for both community members and staff who handle report verdicts on how the rule should work and be applied when enforcing our in game rules.

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In the eyes of the vast majority the rule was fine but I guess it's time to tighten the grip around the section of RP you dislike.

Thanks for the update, Rolle.

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I always knew the rule to be like that did it really need clarifying?

Oh well at least its done now and sets it in stone for anyone that didnt understand it. These scenarios being added to the baiting section on the whitelist @Rolle ?

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Just now, Voodoo said:

I always knew the rule to be like that did it really need clarifying?

Oh well at least its done now and sets it in stone for anyone that didnt understand it. These scenarios being added to the baiting section on the whitelist @Rolle ?

We had two reports lately that were clear baiting however staff team was split about it, so I thought an update for everyone would be a good thing.

Yes, I will add two questions to the whitelist with the scenarios above.

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Thanks for the clarifaction about the baiting rules. I think it will help people understand it better.

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So wait @Rolle please don't tell me in that first situation you are saying you cannot initiate on someone who comes across your vehicle/stuff, that's just ridiculous. I can understand not shooting them outright, but at the same time you should still have the right to initiate on them yourself.

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10 minutes ago, Erik said:

So wait @Rolle please don't tell me in that first situation you are saying you cannot initiate on someone who comes across your vehicle/stuff, that's just ridiculous. I can understand not shooting them outright, but at the same time you should still have the right to initiate on them yourself.

Please read the entire situation description, the context is important. You make it sound as if it's never OK to initiate on someone who is taking your items. The key component in situation 1 is the fact that the person leaves the items or vehicles in a location deliberately, often in plain view and then watches over it from a distance, hoping that someone will come across them. Then uses that as a reason to rob/kill.

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^ Even I missed that further detail tbh, but I'm only half a mug of coffee in this morning...

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This is how I remember the rules. Thanks for reinforcing this one @Rolle

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Key word in the rule is baiting to use kill rights or self defense. If someone is stealing your car, you don't HAVE to use kill right.

1 hour ago, Rolle said:
 

3. You are at a hotspot location where a lot of players gather. You block a path leading to that area by for example blocking a road with a vehicle or stand with your character in a doorway. You do not initiate on anyone or act hostile towards anyone, but you don't move either, making it impossible for other players to pass. Finally, after talking and reasoning with you has failed to get you to move, someone initiates on you and tells you to move or you will die. You or your group use self defense kill rights to kill the initiating party. You get banned for baiting, as acting in a way that leaves other players no other choice but to initiate on you due to your behavior in order to continue their regular RP is considered baiting.

 

 

Weeeell you dont have to use kill rights, a simple right hook would have sufficed.

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I always say that once someone is dead, all RP is essentially over at that point for the two involved. I'm glad you're clarifying RP over Rule Play, and are also educating your Staff for future reports (as well us as community members). I 100% Agree with everything you wrote down, and I'm pleased to see it being enforced now! 

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I had thought these rules were already in place. In glad they're all finally legit. 

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Seems about where it was before I pretty much agree with what's here but the one thing I disagreed with on a previous report was the aggressive party initiating being considered baiting because they baited them into not complying or something ? Back with the whole duct tape bandit thing ( I won't comment as to the stealing of duct tape or whatever happened there as I wasn't involved) but if the party intitates and the other party doesn't comply that's completely their choice . The attempt was made to have them put their hands up for hostile roleplay unlike in these situations where kill rights are just used to kill people.

 

In my opinion this line of rp would be fine 

player a and his group enter town

they walk into group b's camp and one of the group members of A decided they want to steal a rifle as they don't have one

they do so but someone notices from group b and they start acting extremely aggressive  towards the person ( this is assuming there's no initiation from them)

group a seeing their boy get caught and knowing these people might fuck up their boy the thief initiate on group B and tell them to put their hands up or die so they can get their friend the thief outta there

group b doesn't comply and is killed

------------

Now if I'm not mistaken ( which I could be as it's very early ) that was pretty close to what happened in the vybor industrial a while ago and tbh I don't see anything wrong with that. In that type of situation there is time given to comply and get hostile roleplay while in the normal baiting situations kos rights are gained and used to end roleplay. As long as I can still initiate hostile roleplay I'm still a happy man.

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18 minutes ago, Undead said:

Seems about where it was before I pretty much agree with what's here but the one thing I disagreed with on a previous report was the aggressive party initiating being considered baiting because they baited them into not complying or something ? Back with the whole duct tape bandit thing ( I won't comment as to the stealing of duct tape or whatever happened there as I wasn't involved) but if the party intitates and the other party doesn't comply that's completely their choice . The attempt was made to have them put their hands up for hostile roleplay unlike in these situations where kill rights are just used to kill people.

Baiting is not exclusively used to kill, it can also be used to gain reason for initiation, as the rule 6.1 requires you to have. So no, finding an excuse or trying to provoke someone in order to gain a reason to initiate is still baiting, even without the killing. If it were allowed people could bypass rule entirely by baiting for the initiation reason and then robbing everything that moves, without ever having to justify any of their actions through IC.

 

20 minutes ago, Undead said:

In my opinion this line of rp would be fine 

player a and his group enter town

they walk into group b's camp and one of the group members of A decided they want to steal a rifle as they don't have one

they do so but someone notices from group b and they start acting extremely aggressive  towards the person ( this is assuming there's no initiation from them)

group a seeing their boy get caught and knowing these people might fuck up their boy the thief initiate on group B and tell them to put their hands up or die so they can get their friend the thief outta there

group b doesn't comply and is killed

------------

Now if I'm not mistaken ( which I could be as it's very early ) that was pretty close to what happened in the vybor industrial a while ago and tbh I don't see anything wrong with that. In that type of situation there is time given to comply and get hostile roleplay while in the normal baiting situations kos rights are gained and used to end roleplay. As long as I can still initiate hostile roleplay I'm still a happy man.

That's still wrong. You are the one who starts the hostility by stealing and in the end they get fucked over without doing anything hostile to you. It puts hostile RP at a large advantage and people who haven't done anything wrong end up dead. That will not be allowed on this role playing server. If you're gonna do hostile RP or kill someone you better have a damn good reason to do it because since lore wipe we're enforcing rule 6.1 like there is no tomorrow, and that reason better not be gained by baiting.

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Just now, Rolle said:

-snip-

But Rolle that happens anyway from people. In the situation provided there is actual reason to initiate both parties acted in a way that pushed the rp towards those hostilities. I don't see what's wrong with it when the people could honestly just initiated to get the rifle they needed. I don't see how one is different than the other. 

Party A wants the large amount of loot that party b has because some of the bandits in party a have nothing they initiate on party b for said rifle planning on giving them extended solid hostile rp but party b doesnt comply and they all die.

This is completely allowed by the rules but if some rp starts between the groups and they act hostile towards each other then I can no longer initiate ? I don't get it. One way or the other it doesn't put anyone at an advantage or disadvantage because you can initiate at any time. Half the time if you're walking around near the pub in cherno with the 20 or so people around there you're just waiting for an initiation to drop. I mean yea ic they get a bit fucked over but I don't see how that effects ooc . They have tons of options:

1. Comply, get hostile rp between the hostage taker and the hostage and then be let go fine and dandy no problems

2. Don't comply fight back, both sides have equal KOS rights at this point, the initiators actually have a disadvantage at this point because they have to wait for the hostages to act. They get the first move. Will they use dayz deysnc to drop one of the initiators , probably but then the fight begins.

3. They could win the fight and hold their positions defending their camp which is totally their option to choose

4. They could lose the fight and die, but thats a risk that is taken when you don't comply.

I still don't fully understand why it would be baiting to have the rp beforehand. If you want to take it to private messages so it doesn't clutter your thread i'm fine with that, but i'd really like to get a solid understanding on how it's gonna play out in game in the future so I know how to change up my rp. Thanks!

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No more hostile RP guys, even though it was promoted before 

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Honestly, I think things are being handled OOCly way too often right now. 

Why can't we just let RP be RP and let most of what happens be dealt with in game? When there are so many OOC things that affect what happens in game, it can get really stale, or can be difficult to even do anything without getting reported and/or banned. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Kyle_Jones said:

Key word in the rule is baiting to use kill rights or self defense. If someone is stealing your car, you don't HAVE to use kill right.

Weeeell you dont have to use kill rights, a simple right hook would have sufficed.

 

My man! I think people kill with too much ease when they really shouldn't. Non lethal means of engaging such as punching others out or using the stun baton to knock out players should be re-iterated and given some leeway in the rules to allow for RP. Sick of this ruleplay/killplay mentality. 

Edited by Furlean

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Also, as far as I know, none of the staff team was approached or consulted with this. There should have been a discussion within staff about what to do to fix the issues that you're seeing with the server.

This would have been much better instead of just jumping straight in and changing how the baiting rule has been enforced for 2.5 years. Maybe it's the salt in my system, but from what you've described, it seems that this is really going to hurt hostile RP a lot. Likewise, I don't think the baiting issue was that big of an issue. There have only been 2 reports on it in the last 2 weeks. It's not like the issue of people abusing alt characters to avoid consequences for their actions. That was an actual issue for at least a month before the lorewipe, but that was fixed by putting those who abused it on final warning due to their actions. 

I'm not saying people should be placed on final over this, I am just trying to compare two different issues that were handled differently. I understand you own the server and the community and are the final say on everything, but you should trust your staff team with the decisions they are making. If the decisions they are making is wrong, then a discussion within staff should be had. It's becoming more and more common to see you say things like "I got this", which sends everybody in staff into a panic, worried about who you're going to straight up ban, or worried about what you're going to do on the forums. It's clear that when you go to El Presidente mode, nobody likes it. So please, trust your staff team to make the decisions of the community. Otherwise, why even have a staff team if you don't utilize them fully?

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1 minute ago, Dusty said:

Also, as far as I know, none of the staff team was approached or consulted with this. There should have been a discussion within staff about what to do to fix the issues that you're seeing with the server.

This would have been much better instead of just jumping straight in and changing how the baiting rule has been enforced for 2.5 years. Maybe it's the salt in my system, but from what you've described, it seems that this is really going to hurt hostile RP a lot. Likewise, I don't think the baiting issue was that big of an issue. There have only been 2 reports on it in the last 2 weeks. It's not like the issue of people abusing alt characters to avoid consequences for their actions. That was an actual issue for at least a month before the lorewipe, but that was fixed by putting those who abused it on final warning due to their actions. 

I'm not saying people should be placed on final over this, I am just trying to compare two different issues that were handled differently. I understand you own the server and the community and are the final say on everything, but you should trust your staff team with the decisions they are making. If the decisions they are making is wrong, then a discussion within staff should be had. It's becoming more and more common to see you say things like "I got this", which sends everybody in staff into a panic, worried about who you're going to straight up ban, or worried about what you're going to do on the forums. It's clear that when you go to El Presidente mode, nobody likes it. So please, trust your staff team to make the decisions of the community. Otherwise, why even have a staff team if you don't utilize them fully?

This is the way the rule was implemented still in mod, it was done specifically to combat situations that I described above. Only the wording of it has changed since then to make it more simple, the spirit of it and the constraints were never meant to be changed. The rule should have always been enforced like described in OP, however somewhere in between then and now the understanding of how the rule should be applied was skewed. That's why I posted this reminder of how the rule really works and how it should be enforced correctly along with examples. The rule hasn't been changed or fixed in any way, it is the understanding and scope of the rule that needed to be refreshed.

I trust my staff team to correctly enforce the rules that me and the administrators have set in place, but I realize that we are all human and when knowledge is shared by word of mouth between people details are lost and the message warped. Even staff sometimes needs a reminder about how our rules work and how they should be correctly applied in game as it was intended when the rule was created. This is one of these occasions, and as you say the catalyst for it was the two recent reports where I saw how staff incorrectly understood and enforced the baiting rule.

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6 minutes ago, Dusty said:

Also, as far as I know, none of the staff team was approached or consulted with this. There should have been a discussion within staff about what to do to fix the issues that you're seeing with the server.

This would have been much better instead of just jumping straight in and changing how the baiting rule has been enforced for 2.5 years. Maybe it's the salt in my system, but from what you've described, it seems that this is really going to hurt hostile RP a lot. Likewise, I don't think the baiting issue was that big of an issue. There have only been 2 reports on it in the last 2 weeks. It's not like the issue of people abusing alt characters to avoid consequences for their actions. That was an actual issue for at least a month before the lorewipe, but that was fixed by putting those who abused it on final warning due to their actions. 

I'm not saying people should be placed on final over this, I am just trying to compare two different issues that were handled differently. I understand you own the server and the community and are the final say on everything, but you should trust your staff team with the decisions they are making. If the decisions they are making is wrong, then a discussion within staff should be had. It's becoming more and more common to see you say things like "I got this", which sends everybody in staff into a panic, worried about who you're going to straight up ban, or worried about what you're going to do on the forums. It's clear that when you go to El Presidente mode, nobody likes it. So please, trust your staff team to make the decisions of the community. Otherwise, why even have a staff team if you don't utilize them fully?

I disagree, nothing has actually changed. I looked over the rules page and have not noticed a single change as of this moment. All I see here is some more examples. Unless I'm blind and can't see it, Rolle isn't the one jumping to anything here.

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9 hours ago, Rolle said:

You stealing the item would put you directly at risk of getting caught (for example stealing right in front of a player, surrounded by their allies)

We've had multiple people who have now tried stealing from us whilst we're logged off or think we have logged off. We have one occurrence of video evidence of this. Does this mean we can shoot them? It's happened about 4-5 times now and it's getting really old really quickly.

The problem is, no roleplay is provided when they do so, they crash it then run off to get our other vehicle. OR we tell them to stop and they ignore us. OR they ruin our roleplay by doing these actions when they know it is the property of the United Nations. 

Plus the stories they tell us contradict us which irritates us even more. And the best part of it is, some of these situations are happening because this said person has been in our group before.

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1 hour ago, Mercy said:

We've had multiple people who have now tried stealing from us whilst we're logged off or think we have logged off. We have one occurrence of video evidence of this. Does this mean we can shoot them? It's happened about 4-5 times now and it's getting really old really quickly.

I asked staff a similar question a while back. The answer I got was, if they know it belongs to you then wait until you are out of sight or logged, but you catch them in the act, then you have gained kill rights, but you need to be 100% sure that they have otherwise initiate on them to be on the safe side

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