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John

The super-soldier problem

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John    270
Posted (edited)

Hello again community! I've been giving a lot of thought as to how and when to bring this topic up. With the whitelist version of the lore being released, and with many criticisms of the heavy military presence in Chernarus, I decided now is probably the only time I can do this. I get the impression that some of you have a skewed opinion of military RP, with good reason, and I wanted to address it.

Why the "super-soldier" stigma exists

Simply put, inexperienced or lazy role-players have tarnished what should be a complex and interesting choice for a character archetype. Many new players familiar with Arma and DayZ, but unaccustomed to role-playing, enter this community playing what they're familiar with. Usually, that's milsim, which is a decent way to develop PVP skills and an overall poor way to develop RP abilities. Milsim is inherently limited because it focuses on only one aspect of what it means to be in the military: combat. The fact of the matter is that whether you're literally a bioengineered super-soldier, Russian Spetznaz, or a Radio Operator in the US Marine Corps, you still have a personality and a humanity that needs to be shown. Unfortunately, that side of the spectrum tends to fall short.

Another reason I've seen is avid public DayZ players come into RP and tend to be surprised by how easily they can gear up. They seem to forget the point of the community and go for the high tier equipment. Afterward, they may struggle to find a reason they have access to and knowledge of military hardware. So, they claim to be a soldier. It's a poor foundation for a character, because there is usually little thought into the lore and no consideration for what goes into that RP. Consequently, these players will act tough and one-dimensional, often with poor validations for their presence in Chernarus.

These two common occurrences put a damper on what should be an enjoyable RP experience for everyone involved. Frankly, it's a damn shame.

Why the "military RP" stigma exists

This is a pretty complex issue, but I'll do my best to dive into it. First, I believe that most people in the community lament military role-players because of the "super-soldier" stigma. While I don't think it's the only reason, I do believe that improving RP interactions between military and civilians characters could help to reduce the issue. But I think that the overall distaste for military RP, specifically US military RP, is both a cultural concern and a perception about what defines roleplay.

I'll try to tackle the cultural considerations first, though I'm probably not going to convince anyone about how unfair the perspective is. Look I get it. The US military sticks its nose just about anywhere it can, and that causes friction and often pain for many. That might annoy you, it might even make your character hostile to US forces. I'm all for IC tension, but what frustrates me is the tendency by many in this community to resist even the existence of US groups. Such OOC resistance is unfair and surely personal  (or political) in nature. I won't try to contend with the political arguments, but the desire to not even accept the possibility and reality of a US presence is no better than admonishing the simple existence of bandits on the server. There are a lot of good reasons for Americans to be in Chernarus, so while you may disagree that they should be there, the fact is that they would be there. I encourage you to show your dislike of Americans IC, so long as it makes sense for your character. Remember though, an average Chernarussian wouldn't have forgotten the US military role in the civil war (some government officials or nationalists might not care though).

Now that that's off my chest (I'll step back from the soapbox for a moment), I'd like to get into the idea of what defines good, complex RP. Frankly, there are many definitions. But one consensus I seem to come across time and again is that military RP is lesser because it cheapens the experience. There is a perception that all servicemen are somehow trained to deal with survival situations. The fact is that most military members never even see combat, let alone have survival training. That's usually limited to a select number of units and is a highly specialized field. While it's undoubtedly true that most in the military will have a slight advantage over the average survivor, the misconception of this rock-solid Bear Grilles-like military survivor is only perpetuated by the "super-soldier" stigma and those who exemplify it.

A lot of people in this community look at these servers as opportunities to play a kind of character they can relate to. Because of that, they may have a desire to see other characters similar to them, and violent or military ones definitely don't fit the bill. Unfortunately, this game is based on a mod from a milsim game. On a base level, we all recognize this, but for some reason try to separate that from what we want in the game. While I can understand the desire to challenge yourself and play in an environment in which you or your character is less suited, I think it's unreasonable to expect others not to RP how they want, as long as it's not deranged or against the rules. If the RP is good, why reject it?

Why the thread?

Well, for one, I believe that there may have been a misunderstanding of my and potentially others' comments about NATO, the US, and general military RP in the past. I wanted an opportunity to present what I thought to be the most prevalent reasons that people don't want militant characters in the community. I also wanted to open this up as a chance for you to relay your concerns; not just to me and my group, but to military role-players as a whole. I want to hear them so that I may begin to address and rectify them on the forums, within my group, and in-game with you all. My hope is that you can at least see the intentions for this iteration of military groups in DayZRP is well-meaning and that I'm open to hearing and discussing your concerns as a community. I want to dispel the stigma and make military RP both genuine and enjoyable for all of us.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Edited by Static

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There isn't resentment against military characters. There is against those that say they're in the military that cannot feel pain and are practically indestructable. 

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John    270

Yeah of course, and I write that in the OP. But I've definitely seen people say "oh a super-soldier" without giving someone a chance. You may not personally have that inherent resentment, and that's great, but it does exist out in the community.

I think it's healthy to dislike bad RP in general, but it seems to go beyond that.

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S.Bradley    4

From what I've seen about Super soldiers in the community is As you stated most are newer players who are trying to get the hang of RP and the easiest way for them to explain their amazing ability with a rifle and survival abilities is well military. (<<< current lore)    I'm with the UN as an Oncologist so what I'm hoping to see from your NATO group is hopefully abolishing the whole Idea that Every super soldier is almighty and powerful with out giving anyone a chance because if they continue hating to new super soldier then that will just hurt the new lore coming out where military organizations have a large role in lore.

My bad on any grammar errors didn't proof read 

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John    270
4 minutes ago, S.Bradley said:

From what I've seen about Super soldiers in the community is As you stated most are newer players who are trying to get the hang of RP and the easiest way for them to explain their amazing ability with a rifle and survival abilities is well military. (<<< current lore)    I'm with the UN as an Oncologist so what I'm hoping to see from your NATO group is hopefully abolishing the whole Idea that Every super soldier is almighty and powerful with out giving anyone a chance because if they continue hating to new super soldier then that will just hurt the new lore coming out where military organizations have a large role in lore.

My bad on any grammar errors didn't proof read 

I'm definitely hoping to keep NATO within the realm of believability. I'm going through every character that joins and giving them personalities to play aside from "I'm a soldier, hear me roar."

Most people in NATO CFOR weren't deployed for combat unless they were supporting the fight in Takistan, so we aren't looking to gun people down in the streets. Our goal is essentially the same as it was before: ensure stability in Chernarus, or at least assist in restoring order. And you won't see this group go the way of other major lore groups, down the path of banditry or, God forbid, cannibalism. I'm planing for multiple story arcs, and those aren't in them.

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   64
Posted (edited)

I don't mind the appearance of military characters, for the current lore suggests that you'd run into these sort of fellows occasionally.

This kind of concept just has bad reputation because I have met characters who are ex:

- US Marines Weapons Specialists

- "The" Sniper Corps

 

So I'd prefer this to be toned down.

...

Also hello everyone! I haven't posted on these forums nor played on the server for a while! :D

Edited by SirGunman

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Ninja    189

I just hate people who walk up to others and be a dick for no reason, like literally no reason just because they are in huge groups, the super soldier attitude.

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   594

There's gonna be a lot of mil RP with the lore wipe

Deal with it.

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John    270
Just now, Kevin said:

There's gonna be a lot of mil RP with the lore wipe

Deal with it.

So you didn't even read it, did you?  I literally talk about how mil-RP is and can be great.

21 minutes ago, SirGunman said:

I don't mind the appearance of military characters, for the current lore suggests that you'd run into these sort of fellows occasionally.

This kind of concept just has bad reputation because I have met characters who are ex:

- US Marines Weapons Specialists

- "The" Sniper Corps

 

So I'd prefer this to be toned down.

Yeah, I hope to see people choose actual units and not make stuff up.  People should do their homework on military characters.

17 minutes ago, Ninja said:

I just hate people who walk up to others and be a dick for no reason, like literally no reason just because they are in huge groups, the super soldier attitude.

I'll keep that in mind when NATO rolls around as a group every once in a while xD

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   594
Just now, Static said:

So you didn't even read it, did you?  I literally talk about how mil-RP is and can be great.

I'm not home right now and I see 8 paragraphs and the thread titled "The super soldier problem" so yeah tldr

Guess I'll take a peak later.

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MEczyTAL    5
Posted (edited)

I've seen good and bad Military RP'ers... However, most of them are just ignoring other players and rush trough NWA fot loot. Some are banditing to rob you... And one of the ten is asking you for information... But my point is... it's too many of them in the community. Server is lacking the decent civilian characters. And people just don't want to play civilian, because most of the military to civilian interactions are
1. hands up
2. ignore
3. Do you have any information?
And the circle closes.
...Most of the military characters don't even try to tell or make any stories, and if they do - they do it between themselves.

Edited by MEczyTAL

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Pep    264

Don't really mind your NATO idea so as the U.S army, I think its great and you can potentially do a good job with it. 

its just that later on it will cause troubles when you see more and more of those ex navy seal sniper heli crash sole survivors. 

so sometimes its just better to not touch that subject at all rather than trying it to see if it fails or not since its just a lazy excuse for newcomers to RP.

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John    270
1 minute ago, Pep said:

Don't really mind your NATO idea so as the U.S army, I think its great and you can potentially do a good job with it. 

its just that later on it will cause troubles when you see more and more of those ex navy seal sniper heli crash sole survivors. 

so sometimes its just better to not touch that subject at all rather than trying it to see if it fails or not since its just a lazy excuse for newcomers to RP.

Yeah I'm hoping that with the inclusion of character page requirements, newcomers and lazy RPers alike won't be able to get away with BS shit like "I jumped out of a crashing helicopter to save the universe with my laser gun that I powergame to have."

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   87

I'll admit, whenever I bump into a new person and during name swaps he (always a he) includes some kind of military title, IRL I usually roll my eyes and resign myself to sub-par RP. That being said, I've definitely gotten to see both shitty mil-RP and good mil-RP, and a military background CAN make for some really good RP material.

I think one of the substantial road-blocks is lack of research. If all you know of military life comes from playing CoD, then of course you're going to RP as a supersoldier, because in CoD/Battlefield/Halo that's what you ARE. Arma's not AS bad at this, but still imperfect. There is no substitute for going on a Google spree reading up about stuff, or asking others; I remember a rather nice hour spent talking to an older gentleman about his experience in SpecOps (lol) during the cold war. Turns out Special Forces can actually be a really, really boring post.

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Goryan    7

I have never played a soldier.... and will probably never.  Might be too boring to know all the "stuff".  

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John    270
1 hour ago, Goryan said:

I have never played a soldier.... and will probably never.  Might be too boring to know all the "stuff".  

Thing is, they don't know all the "stuff," at least not most of them do. 

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TheMilkman    4

I never realised how bad this has gotten until just today when I went to the refugee UN camp in game. Out of the 13 people there (Excluding UN soldiers) There was only one man along with me who didnt have an M4 or fully kitted AKM with sights and stuff. Really does ruin the immersion

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Rory    1558
2 minutes ago, TheMilkman said:

I never realised how bad this has gotten until just today when I went to the refugee UN camp in game. Out of the 13 people there (Excluding UN soldiers) There was only one man along with me who didnt have an M4 or fully kitted AKM with sights and stuff. Really does ruin the immersion

That's why the UN should enforce taking those away from them. Like the VDV do.

On 7/20/2017 at 10:11 PM, Static said:

Yeah I'm hoping that with the inclusion of character page requirements, newcomers and lazy RPers alike won't be able to get away with BS shit like "I jumped out of a crashing helicopter to save the universe with my laser gun that I powergame to have."

Idk about that bud. I've seen a looooooot of horrible RP'ers today w/ @Para and my group and yesterday in Stary. 
The fact you have to have a char page doesn't stop someone from trolling or being overall lacking any kind of sense.

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Glitch    15

Mentor Program. There are a lot of threads that are addressing points and aspects of RP that people have problems with. I get it, it's annoying and it can ruin RP but there are resources for those that seem inexperienced.

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RogueSolace    455

Thankfully I've had a lot of good interactions with VDV and the other groups running around so far.

Due to an rp with @Otter yesterday I can sort of see where some things could come off as not what they are.

 

Essentially he showed up and was trying to direct players to the UN camp. several were arguing about it with him, he just kept directing them back to the camp.

I can see where someone could sort of misinterpret this as 'super soldier telling us what to do'. As you said its important to make these characters actual people, and Otter is very good at that, I think this is a good example. While some people could just be like 'I'm military, do what I say, stfu, do what I say because I'm here to help you.' His response was different.

He pointed out as the soldier: his objective is to get all civilians to the UN/NATO camp for testing for their safety and evacuation. He doesn't deal with the evacuations, that's the UN's process, not his procedure not his rules. His job is directing the civilians to them so they can get safely out of the country. Why are you running around abandoned towns and things when its obvious you need to get out of the country and the UN is the only way? 

His reason for being there is his government sent him to work with the other groups to evacuate the area completely. Then deal with all the sick people walking around (clearing them out/killing/however that's supposed to work for them). Then allow citizens safely back into their country so they can go home and be safe. Then he gets to go home.

Personal talks I've also learned that obviously as he is Russian, many people are simply hating him and his group due to stigma (which is what is supposed to be happening to a degree). He's just a soldier who was sent here, he wants to do what everyone else was, go home. He's just trying to do his job so everyone can go back to where they are happy.

 

My personal experience for super soldier is pvp who also in rp situations don't respond to damage etc. So if they're being injured they may not even notice. I'm aware that the super soldier thing here is different. I think @Static does a very good job of explaining it all.

Military are humans just like everyone else. They're trained to take over in extreme situations when most people lose the ability to think straight and have to be directed. It's part of the flight or fight response, there is also actually a freeze option most people don't know about. The body just sort of stops because it doesn't know what to do/deer in headlights/people just staring while an emergency is happening. That is the typical response people actually have. Some people are able to, and military/police/emt/first responders are trained to walk into a situation of everyone being in shock mode and start directing them to do things, which gives them something to sort of fix their attention on. "You, call 911. You, find some clean cloth. You, get all the people here over into a group behind that terrace" etc. If people are in shock and don't know what to do, they will immediately respond to given directions.

There are a ton of factors, but yes, remember and rp them as actual people. Are you a badass? Okay be a badass, but remember you're human. You respond to pain (unless you have nerve damage and then you could end up easily loosing a limb during a fight because you don't realize how hurt you actually are). 

You also know, when people who were at war Russians/Cherno suddenly go OKAY STOP THIS SHIT AND WORK TOGETHER- something SERIOUS is happening. Obviously when multiple world military/health etc branches are being put together, there's something serious happening. You want to try to keep that in mind, you're a person swept up in all of this, be it civilian or military.

 

 

 

 

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Malet    85

So, from what I gathered reading this thread 3 issues were pointed out. (Please correct me if I am wrong!)

1. Civilians carrying military grade weaponry.
2. Soldiers RP more as robots without personality and feelings.
3. Many new players without experience use the "Soldier"-Card to basically dress up like they used to do on public servers.

All three of these topics are rather hard to address, but I give it a try.
1. While disarming the civis from high grade weapons makes sense for Law enforcing groups like the CDF and VDV, it always leads to the "Soldiers boss me around. I hate them"-Situation and in the end a lot of bad blood. For the UN doing this is kinda difficult, mainly because their main objective is to protect the WHO-Staff and investigate whats going on. For this they kinda depend on the sympathy of the civilians. Otherwise every patrol and the camp itself will just become a permanent target.

2. Again, difficult. I, agree, showing no sign of fear or pain even if you are a trained soldier doesnt make any sense and is bad RP. Maybe due to training the tolerance range is higher, but they are nonetheless human. What makes RP'ing as a soldier kinda difficult is the fact how you are kinda limited in your options of interactions between the ranks and with civilians. A Mayor would most likely not talk about his feelings with his privates and a corporal barely makes friends with civis while they go fishing together. Being myself in the UN currently I know for sure that most if not all of our characters are well written with an individual identity and backstory that allows personal development. It's just difficult most of the time to play it out.

3. Like it was mentioned before - There are mentor programs and except showing them how much more than MilSim RP can be there is very little you can do to stop the m4-wielding, talking bushes you encounter here and there.

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Bloody_Tank    1
21 hours ago, Malet said:

1. Civilians carrying military grade weaponry.
2. Soldiers RP more as robots without personality and feelings.
3. Many new players without experience use the "Soldier"-Card to basically dress up like they used to do on public servers.

That is spot on, all the people that just are ex cops military and hunters. The people are just perfectly made for the world of dayz

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Keione    50
21 hours ago, Malet said:

So, from what I gathered reading this thread 3 issues were pointed out. (Please correct me if I am wrong!)

1. Civilians carrying military grade weaponry.
2. Soldiers RP more as robots without personality and feelings.
3. Many new players without experience use the "Soldier"-Card to basically dress up like they used to do on public servers.

All three of these topics are rather hard to address, but I give it a try.
1. While disarming the civis from high grade weapons makes sense for Law enforcing groups like the CDF and VDV, it always leads to the "Soldiers boss me around. I hate them"-Situation and in the end a lot of bad blood. For the UN doing this is kinda difficult, mainly because their main objective is to protect the WHO-Staff and investigate whats going on. For this they kinda depend on the sympathy of the civilians. Otherwise every patrol and the camp itself will just become a permanent target.

2. Again, difficult. I, agree, showing no sign of fear or pain even if you are a trained soldier doesnt make any sense and is bad RP. Maybe due to training the tolerance range is higher, but they are nonetheless human. What makes RP'ing as a soldier kinda difficult is the fact how you are kinda limited in your options of interactions between the ranks and with civilians. A Mayor would most likely not talk about his feelings with his privates and a corporal barely makes friends with civis while they go fishing together. Being myself in the UN currently I know for sure that most if not all of our characters are well written with an individual identity and backstory that allows personal development. It's just difficult most of the time to play it out.

3. Like it was mentioned before - There are mentor programs and except showing them how much more than MilSim RP can be there is very little you can do to stop the m4-wielding, talking bushes you encounter here and there.

1. The issue of "Soldiers boss me around. I hate them." is that if someone does not want their automatic rifle taken, they should hide it or simply attempt staying away from the CDF and VDV. As well, the CDF and VDV are the closest thing to a government we have, and if they're clearing infected for us and really doing all they can to help, someone complaining about them taking their gun is just salty imo. While I agree with the UN statement, I feel some CDF/VDV should be stationed at the UN refugee camp to ensure people aren't kitting themselves out.

Besides, why the hell do you need a full automatic rifle 20 days into the infection. And why would you bitch if a soldier took it? What do people think would happen IRL if they walked around like that? 

2. I couldn't speak on it, most of my RP with soldiers has been exceptional other than like two soldiers.

3. I don't think it's new players doing that so much that its that people seemingly forget that it makes no RP sense for someone to have a fully kitted automatic rifle because the parts for one MORE THAN LIKELY have to come from a military base, which most are off-limits to civilians. So if you're sneaking into a base to get parts or a rifle of that sorts, why would you openly carry it in front of the military.

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You have a good point, there really are too many people playing the ex-military or is military role. I think people need to expand there horizons on characters. My character spent time in the military but is more a cowboy gun ho guy then he is military.

 

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TheMilkman    4

I dont get why people go Ex Military at all. Just be like me and become a Cherno Russian Fisherman :D

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