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Combatsmithen

What is meta gaming and what is not?

Question

I've seen videos and such, where people are communicating OOC like "he's initiating" or "who wants to initiate", I've even seen someone say where someone was before, and the videos were posted on the forums. And It appears how it's a lot of groups run around doing blisteringly fast and efficient robberies and everyone seems to know whats up and going on and exactly what to do. How the hell is this not metagaming? Any form of OOC communication should be forbidden! Because I've been robbed before by a group. Seperated out of line of sight. One guy literally told me to put my hands up. walked me out the door all the way to his buddies who were a good 100 meters away, who were also holding up my buddies. There is no way they communicated beforehand when exactly to initiate and take us hostage (good thing I whipped out my Mp5 after ducking down in a ditch and started the breakout gunfight which we WON agaisnt all odds). I would have heard a radio if it was in game communication, so they must have been communicating OOC. And I'm afraid I see quite a lot of this stuff. Also its very immersion breaking for the people doing it too, so its like they are only in it for the gear.

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Strawberry    169
Posted (edited)

I am sorry to say but it isn't real life.

It's not metagaming seeing how it's allowed within the rules to talk over teamspeak while playing the game; not needing to to hot mic in-game while you are speaking over teamspeak. Also there is no way to make you hear what they say over the radio, in a non complicated way. It's not really needed though, seeing how this is a video game and some unrealistic things are bound to be even in a roleplaying community.

Now; a lot of people are playing with IC teamspeak only, which I fully respect but like said it's not within the rules; that teamspeak is suppose to be a IC only radio. There can be OOC talk over teamspeak.

 

 

Edited by Strawberry

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Shadows    993
Posted (edited)

Communicating over teamspeak to coordinate an initiation is definitely not meta gaming...

 

Metagaming is very clearly defined in the rules: "Metagaming is a broad term generally used to define any strategy, communication, information or action in a game which goes beyond the game mechanics or the knowledge of your character. Most commonly it is used when a character receives information that they otherwise would not be able to receive in any reasonable way in game, i.e. pulse checking another player to learn their identity or gaining information through a radio despite your radio being taken away."

 

Talking about holding someone up over teamspeak would be in character not out-of-character, and talking out of character on teamspeak is 100% allowed as long as it isn't taken in game. For example, I can pulse check you and use your character name in teamspeak if it's out of character to just remember in case you need to report for example, but I cannot take and use this illicitly acquired name into the game.

Edited by Shadows

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Saradomin    334

Hello! In short, teamspeak is allowed to be used most of the times, exept when the rules state otherwise. You can read here on how teamspeak can be used.

 


Lets break down the rules regarding metagaming

Metagaming is a broad term generally used to define any strategy, communication, information or action in a game which goes beyond the game mechanics or the knowledge of your character. Most commonly it is used when a character receives information that they otherwise would not be able to receive in any reasonable way in game, i.e. pulse checking another player to learn their identity or gaining information through a radio despite your radio being taken away.

  • 11.1 You may not use metagaming to give your character information that he/she would otherwise not have access to or to gain any kind of advantage over other players.
  • 11.2 You may not use information posted on the forums, said in TeamSpeak or acquired in any other OOC way to get unfair advantage in game. You may however use information acquired through approved IC methods on our website like open radio chatter threads or the DayZRP map.
  • 11.3 You may not use or give any information about your killer or the location of your body after you are dead, unconscious, when surrendering (F2 animation), handcuffed or have had your radio removed from your character.
  • 11.4 If you are frisked or searched for items you must give away all items that are available on your character. For example you may not "hide" one radio if you had two and only one was taken, you can't have concealed weapons, grenades etc.

 

11.1 - This could be seen as the "main" rule of metagaming. This covers all of the other rules in one.

11.2 - What this rule says, is that you can not gain access on information, such as names, allies, camps and so on, that your charachter wouldn't know. For example, you can not watch a video in a media thread and then go in game and know that person A and B are friends because you saw it in the media thread. 

11.3 This rule states that you can not give away information after certain events. For example, if you get killed during a firefight, you can not say "Person A killed me in the police station" It also states that if you are surrendering - putting your hands up, is handcuffed or the radio removed - you can not say what is happening over ts, example - "Person A is robbing me in the police station"

 

Looking at these rules, we can see that if the information is gained ICly, you can tell your friend - Ok, lets rob those guys. In three, two, one.
You can also tell your friend on teamspeak "i am in this town if you want to meet up" and so on.

 

I hope this clears it up for you. If so, or any other answeres the question, please solve it as the guide below shows.

 

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3 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

I am sorry to say but it isn't real life.

It's not metagaming seeing how it's allowed within the rules to talk over teamspeak while playing the game; not needing to to hot mic in-game while you are speaking over teamspeak. Also there is no way to make you hear what they say over the radio, in a non complicated way. It's not really needed though, seeing how this is a video game and some unrealistic things are bound to be even in a roleplaying community.

 

 

I know. but you are supposed to play through your character, and your characters are supposed to communicate with each other in game . Gaining knowledge from an external source like teamspeak that your character wouldn't otherwise have in game. seems like metagaming to me. Like, how is your character supposed to know who is going to initiate, and when exactly to initiate? You are able to know that as a player by communicating via external sources, but you are supposed to play through your character and act as your character, and thus only have knowledge that your character knows. It's like someones character knowing all the lore even if their character did not witness all the events firsthand.

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Shadows    993
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Combatsmithen said:

I know. but you are supposed to play through your character, and your characters are supposed to communicate with each other in game . Gaining knowledge from an external source like teamspeak that your character wouldn't otherwise have in game. seems like metagaming to me. Like, how is your character supposed to know who is going to initiate, and when exactly to initiate? You are able to know that as a player by communicating via external sources, but you are supposed to play through your character and act as your character, and thus only have knowledge that your character knows. It's like someones character knowing all the lore even if their character did not witness all the events firsthand.

Because teamspeak ≈ a radio in game. 

Edited by Shadows

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1 minute ago, Saradomin said:

Hello! In short, teamspeak is allowed to be used most of the times, exept when the rules state otherwise. You can read here on how teamspeak can be used.

 


Lets break down the rules regarding metagaming

Metagaming is a broad term generally used to define any strategy, communication, information or action in a game which goes beyond the game mechanics or the knowledge of your character. Most commonly it is used when a character receives information that they otherwise would not be able to receive in any reasonable way in game, i.e. pulse checking another player to learn their identity or gaining information through a radio despite your radio being taken away.

  • 11.1 You may not use metagaming to give your character information that he/she would otherwise not have access to or to gain any kind of advantage over other players.
  • 11.2 You may not use information posted on the forums, said in TeamSpeak or acquired in any other OOC way to get unfair advantage in game. You may however use information acquired through approved IC methods on our website like open radio chatter threads or the DayZRP map.
  • 11.3 You may not use or give any information about your killer or the location of your body after you are dead, unconscious, when surrendering (F2 animation), handcuffed or have had your radio removed from your character.
  • 11.4 If you are frisked or searched for items you must give away all items that are available on your character. For example you may not "hide" one radio if you had two and only one was taken, you can't have concealed weapons, grenades etc.

 

11.1 - This could be seen as the "main" rule of metagaming. This covers all of the other rules in one.

11.2 - What this rule says, is that you can not gain access on information, such as names, allies, camps and so on, that your charachter wouldn't know. For example, you can not watch a video in a media thread and then go in game and know that person A and B are friends because you saw it in the media thread. 

11.3 This rule states that you can not give away information after certain events. For example, if you get killed during a firefight, you can not say "Person A killed me in the police station" It also states that if you are surrendering - putting your hands up, is handcuffed or the radio removed - you can not say what is happening over ts, example - "Person A is robbing me in the police station"

 

Looking at these rules, we can see that if the information is gained ICly, you can tell your friend - Ok, lets rob those guys. In three, two, one.
You can also tell your friend on teamspeak "i am in this town if you want to meet up" and so on.

 

I hope this clears it up for you. If so, or any other answeres the question, please solve it as the guide below shows.

 

Feels kind of cheese to me, being able to say exactly when to rob someone without the person you are talking to in-game noticing you counting down with your buddy. Unless your minds are telepathically linked as characters (very far fetched) then you both should not know exactly when to rob someone

Just now, Shadows said:

Because teamspeak =~ a radio in game. 

IRL you could hear someone talking on a radio with all their friends if they were 5 feet in front of you and talking to you..... I understand, that the in game mechanics are trash when it comes to radios. But for the sake of roleplay this makes no sense

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Saradomin    334
Just now, Combatsmithen said:

Feels kind of cheese to me, being able to say exactly when to rob someone without the person you are talking to in-game noticing you counting down with your buddy. Unless your minds are telepathically linked as characters (very far fetched) then you both should not know exactly when to rob someone

It might be a bit cheese, to some, however these are the current rules and this is how we play at the moment. If you want, feel free to put in a suggestion in the forums for change. 

https://www.dayzrp.com/forums/forum/7-suggestions/

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4 minutes ago, Shadows said:

Communicating over teamspeak to coordinate an initiation is definitely not meta gaming...

 

Metagaming is very clearly defined in the rules: "Metagaming is a broad term generally used to define any strategy, communication, information or action in a game which goes beyond the game mechanics or the knowledge of your character. 

 

How would your character coordinate an initiation in game? That's a strategy, communication, information, or action in game which goes beyond the knowledge of your character to know exactly when to initiate

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Shadows    993
1 minute ago, Combatsmithen said:

IRL you could hear someone talking on a radio with all their friends if they were 5 feet in front of you and talking to you..... I understand, that the in game mechanics are trash when it comes to radios. But for the sake of roleplay this makes no sense

IRL I can kill you in the middle of the apocalypse with no reason. Fun comes first, realism second. It has been suggested countless times but this is just non enforceable, and the in-game VOIP sucks and wouldn't allow you to whisper into the mic and other beautiful drawbacks this game has.

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Just now, Saradomin said:

It might be a bit cheese, to some, however these are the current rules and this is how we play at the moment. If you want, feel free to put in a suggestion in the forums for change. 

https://www.dayzrp.com/forums/forum/7-suggestions/

I feel like Im gonna get alot of hate because currently everyone and their mother is in a large group going around robbing people and communicating like this and I'm sick of it. Part of the reason I haven't played in nearly a week. Because since the rest of my group is away I don't stand a chance and I'm going to get robbed every 5 minutes.

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Shadows    993
1 minute ago, Combatsmithen said:

How would your character coordinate an initiation in game? That's a strategy, communication, information, or action in game which goes beyond the knowledge of your character to know exactly when to initiate

Yes, an initiation is a strategy but that's not what the rule mentions. The "strategy" here would be using teamspeak which does not go beyond the knowledge of your character because they know what frequency to talk into on their radio.

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1 minute ago, Shadows said:

IRL I can kill you in the middle of the apocalypse with no reason. Fun comes first, realism second. It has been suggested countless times but this is just non enforceable, and the in-game VOIP sucks and wouldn't allow you to whisper into the mic and other beautiful drawbacks this game has.

That makes you a madman, naturally, Humans that have any kind of sense of the value of human life and their fellow species, will not shoot each other on sight, unless at the moment it's total chaos, riots, shit burning down and your life is in danger.  But if you walk into a random stranger on the road during an apocalypse, chances are they won't shoot you on sight. The only reason this happens in Vanilla Dayz is because its a game and there are no psychological repercussions for your actions.

You may get robbed, depending on how desperate the person on the other end is, but you probably wont get shot unless that person has lost all sanity.

It is part of the reason the Military transitioned to Human shaped targets from bullseyes. They were finding very few soldiers were actually shooting to kill, so they went to human targets to try and condition soldiers into killers.

5 minutes ago, Shadows said:

Yes, an initiation is a strategy but that's not what the rule mentions. The "strategy" here would be using teamspeak which does not go beyond the knowledge of your character because they know what frequency to talk into on their radio.

Saying what I said before, if you are standing within 5 feet of someone, and someone says "take em out!" on the radio, you would hear them, you would also hear them talking with their buddies over the radio too.

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Shadows    993
1 minute ago, Combatsmithen said:

That makes you a madman, naturally, Humans that have any kind of sense of the value of human life and their fellow species, will not shoot each other on sight, unless at the moment it's total chaos, riots, shit burning down and your life is in danger.  But if you walk into a random stranger on the road during an apocalypse, chances are they won't shoot you on sight. The only reason this happens in Vanilla Dayz is because its a game and there are no psychological repercussions for your actions.

You may get robbed, depending on how desperate the person on the other end is, but you probably wont get shot unless that person has lost all sanity.

It is part of the reason the Military transitioned to Human shaped targets from bullseyes. They were finding very few soldiers were actually shooting to kill, so they went to human targets to try and condition soldiers into killers.

But I could. The thing is as much as it may sound nice to have this perfectly realistic, there comes a point where you need to balance realism with fun.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Shadows said:

But I could. The thing is as much as it may sound nice to have this perfectly realistic, there comes a point where you need to balance realism with fun.

Of course you could. Will you? No. Most likely not. Unless you are insane. Are you insane?

This isn't an argument of realism vs fun, this is an argument of your character having some sort of telepathic radio which only you and your group can hear but nobody else, even if they are standing right next to you. To me at least this is borderline game breaking

Edited by Combatsmithen

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Shadows    993
Just now, Combatsmithen said:

Of course you could. Will you? No. Most likely not. Unless you are insane. Are you insane?

This isn't an argument of realism vs fun, this is an argument of your character having some sort of telepathic radio which only you and your group can hear but nobody else. To me at least this is borderline game breaking

But this literally is fun vs. realism, is it not? Your argument of it being "game breaking" makes no sense because this doesn't break the game, but rather is just a downside of this being a video game and not real life.

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Nihoolious    1092

At the end of the day, this is a video game. I'm all for being serious but I also want to have fun. Forcing people to be in character 100% of the time they play here with no breaks would not be fun imo. Our rules for metagaming are not as strict as you want because it would alienate a lot of the playerbase. I think our current rules for metagaming are a healthy balance between serious but not ridiculous.

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Posted (edited)

The whole point of RP. Is to be in character. Right? Alienate the playerbase? The playerbase that all they want to do is rob, steal, kill, pillage, like some sort of savage barbarians with a small amount of roleplay? And communicating via a mean that your character may or may not have in game?

6 minutes ago, Nihoolious said:

At the end of the day, this is a video game. I'm all for being serious but I also want to have fun. Forcing people to be in character 100% of the time they play here with no breaks would not be fun imo. Our rules for metagaming are not as strict as you want because it would alienate a lot of the playerbase. I think our current rules for metagaming are a healthy balance between serious but not ridiculous.

drop weps 10 secs

Edited by Combatsmithen

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Shadows    993
Just now, Combatsmithen said:

The playerbase that all they want to do is rob, steal, kill, pillage, with a small amount of roleplay?

This sounds like more a mindset or just bad experiences that you should be reporting more than "Teamspeak ruins my immersion"

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Nihoolious    1092
Just now, Combatsmithen said:

The whole point of RP. Is to be in character. Right? Alienate the playerbase? The playerbase that all they want to do is rob, steal, kill, pillage, with a small amount of roleplay? And communicating via a mean that your character may or may not have in game?

drop weps 10 secs

Alright, it a appears that you have a skewed view on what kind of people play on the server. I can assure you the entire playerbase are not bandits, quite the opposite really. You probably just had a bad run in with some of the bandits and it seems like the server is full of them when that is not the case. 

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Just now, Nihoolious said:

Alright, it a appears that you have a skewed view on what kind of people play on the server. I can assure you the entire playerbase are not bandits, quite the opposite really. You probably just had a bad run in with some of the bandits and it seems like the server is full of them when that is not the case. 

I've probably met like 5 bandit groups for every 1 friendly group I've come across.

I kind of expected a whitelisted community to be more dedicated to the RP ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

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Shadows    993
Just now, Combatsmithen said:

I kind of expected a whitelisted community to be more dedicated to the RP ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bandit groups do provide roleplay, however it seems this has turned more into a salt thread about you getting held up rather than a question so I presume your question has been answered.

/close this tbh

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Pussy    311

Pretty much assume that people are speaking to their friends over their "radio" (teamspeak) unless you initiate on them and RP taking that radio from them. In the case that your radio is taken from you, and you continue to speak to your friends on TS about the robbery, that's meta gaming.

I know a lot of people who carry a radio with them in game for the sake of realism, but it really isn't necessary. One of the groups I ran around with in the past would often speak both in TS and in game in regards to things they thought the surrounding individuals should hear. An example of this would be when we were with a large group of people we were unsure of, we would often say both in TS and in game "Yeah, I'm by the apple orchard outside of Berezino with about 5 other people." This effect was for the sake of realism, but mostly just to freak the other people out, knowing that we may have support if they tried to rob us. Once again, doing this is unnecessary. 

Does it kind of suck? Meh. I understand that it could be something to get used to, but I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal unless you're actually breaking the meta gaming rule. Does it make total sense? Nah. But, I guess nothing is stopping you from role playing with only IG radios if that's what you prefer. Good luck trying to sway the popular opinion though. 

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William    397

It looks like you got plenty of answers to your question.

If you still are confused for whatever reason you can go ahead and message another support member.

/Closed

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