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Roland

Safe zone discussion

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1 minute ago, Rolle said:

We have to think long-term. Nobody wants to spend every evening on the server sitting in SZ and guarding shit. How long people would be able to keep up with it, a week, maybe two? Then everyone would get bored of it and stop logging in. The SZ is supposed to be self-sustaining without us having to intervene in game since we lack numbers or ability to guard it for extended periods of time.

 

If it were to be contained on S2 then we could just start and stop the server whenever SZ is "open". But we can't close the SZ by any means IC or in game by building a wall like we used to do in the mod.

Well I mean if people are getting bored, isn't that when the rp should stop or change. As to sitting around guarding things there are plenty of people who do that right now. There are groups that literally do this currently.

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Maybe have the safe zone maintained by the rules for a set amount of time to show the faction having power and then further down the line , have their power decrease and have if people still want the location to be a gathering point, work to defend it? because as people have been saying it makes sense early on in the apocalypse 

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4 minutes ago, Beni said:

Maybe somewhere closer to the triangle but not too close?

Was already brought up, I think it's best to keep it as far away from popular areas as possible, that will create incentive to travel and also reduce the number of people in SZ. We don't want to have half of the server in there all the time and that would happen if it's near a popular hotspot location.

 

4 minutes ago, Beni said:

What if, around 6 months after the outbreak, the safezone goes to shit and the UN get fucking slaughtered and then, another safe zone ran by survivors is taken and the rules change slightly... (that's if the safezone is UN ran, of course) 

That's cool, this idea is more for the first iteration of the safe zone. There may be other iterations depending on how the SZ is received, if it's popular, how the LMs story goes and event outcomes that happen.

4 minutes ago, Beni said:

Also, @Rolle... Would camping outside the safezone (Say in a treeline) be allowed? Because well, this would happen in the real world... Bandits waiting for people to go out of this safe zone, and then follow them to a secluded area, grab them and torture them?

It will definetely happen and as I wrote in OP it is a concern because then nobody can get in or out of the SZ. But it makes no sense to restrict camping outside of the SZ, I don't want to touch or make any special rules for any area outside the SZ.

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5 minutes ago, Beni said:


 

Remember that u can logon s2 when there are no players, swim to the island, login and never have to worry about hostile rp. Since ghosting would be allowed. Camping would be useless because anyone who wants in can just appear in.

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I am really excited for this. I'm completely split between the two islands, and cannot really make a choice. If you're worried about too many people talking in VOIP because of the compactness on prison island, just know that no matter what island or area it will be, people will most likely gather into a big cluster anyway.

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Just now, Undead said:

Remember that u can logon s2 when there are no players, swim to the island, login and never have to worry about hostile rp. Since ghosting would be allowed. Camping would be useless because anyone who wants in can just appear in.

Well fuck me sideways and call me a Sasha Grey that's utter shite. 

We'll find a way Undead my mate... We'll find a way.... 

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Can I get a airfield kos zone if you guys get a safe zone :DDDD???????

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About your ghosting idea, @Rolle, do you not think that there should be a risk factor in traveling to and from the SZ? It would be a path of lost traders/survivors looking to sell their goods. Any self respected bandit would jump on the opportunity. 

Just my thoughts.

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Just now, Undead said:

Can I get a airfield kos zone if you guys get a safe zone :DDDD???????

The whole map is already a KoS zone, haven't you seen the reports?

If we peaceful RPers take a small, unused part of the map and claim it as our own with our own rules I don't think it will disrupt the hostile RP that you love so much in any way. You still have an entire map for yourself and your dank initiations and firefights. If you don't like peaceful RP just don't go to the SZ. It's not like you can stumble upon Skalisty by accident.

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oh my.. Colony v.2 inbound

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Just now, Kevin said:

About your ghosting idea, @Rolle, do you not think that there should be a risk factor in traveling to and from the SZ? It would be a path of lost traders/survivors looking to sell their goods. Any self respected bandit would jump on the opportunity. 

Just my thoughts.

I know, that's why I wrote I didn't like the ghosting idea, but in worst case scenario if nobody can get in or out, we need to have a solution and that was the only idea I could come up with.

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Just now, Rolle said:

I know, that's why I wrote I didn't like the ghosting idea, but in worst case scenario if nobody can get in or out, we need to have a solution and that was the only idea I could come up with.

As previously suggested, Green Mountain.

Skalisity would be cool, but the beaches can be camped. Not having a gun out in front of a zerg of bandits isn't fun. GM however, you'd be able to sprint off of the mountain in any direction, to immediate towns, or various forests. 

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Right, I think that a safe zone could be a wonderful idea, but I would like to suggest some alterations to it, if I may.

In my humble opinion, a safe zone shouldn't be as safe and protected by rule armour as much as is suggested. That takes a lot of the tension out of the game, which is, let's be honest, the fun part. The way it is right now, it'll either be full and anyone looking for some hostile RP won't find any or it'll be empty and useless because the people on the server will want to actually go out and have some fun besides mundane small talk.

So here's my suggestions on improving the safe zone:
1. Dealing with campers
This would be an easy fix if the people enforcing the rules in the safe zone were given authority not just over it, but around it as well, say, a radius of 500 m around the safe zone. This could also provide for some interesting interactions like, for example, a survivor is running towards the safe zone from bandits/zombies/wolves/etc and is then aided by the protectors of the zone, who would fire warning shots and then kill shots if the threat gets closer than 100 metres. Think the Duty base in STALKER. Now that's just ideas, these numbers or responses to threats are not concrete, mind you. But how would they defend the are around the safe zone if it's an island, you ask? Well, this brings me to my second point.

2. Safe Zone location
The islands are too isolated. I think it would be a lot more organic if the zone was somewhere on the mainland, but still away from any high-traffic areas. It gives a chance for people to randomly stumble into it in their travels or incorporate it into their routes. It would be still out of the way, but close by at the same time if it were, for example, in the Gvozdno summer camp or the Quarry near Kamensk. There also many other wonderful locations in South Zagoria, way more beautiful and appealing than the islands to the south.

3. Danger in the safe zone
I think that it's good that people can feel safe inside the safe zone (duh) but we shouldn't overdo it. It's a mad world, after all, even so early on, so I think there should be some leniency here. My suggestion is to keep the no weapons IC and OOC rules but don't get completely safe space. Allowing melee weapon initiations and minor street fights that are only enforced IC'ly should be okay. For example, 4 friends find a lonely survivor chilling in the safe zone in a dark corner where the zone's protectors are currently absent. They pull out knives and bats and rob the guy and try to escape as quickly as they can because he'll already be running to alert the authorities. Again, that's just off the top of my head, but mainly I want to counter the no shit talking rule which is a tad unrealistic. Allow it, because people will be people. And then deal with it IC'ly. If they troublemakers start pulling guns, then yes, enforce the OOC rules and ban them, but if they're just having a heated argument, deal with that IC'ly, get a tribunal going, call a judge. If they stop shouting and decide to let their fists do the talking, then do the same or even exile them for X amount of time from the safe zone. I believe that would make it a lot more interesting than it being happy fun land.

That's what I got for now. I had another thought, but I got interrupted 4 times while writing this, so it left my head. If it was anything important or productive, I'll make sure to add it.

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the problem and reality with this situation.. the ratio of people at the start of an apocalypse that would become bandits from the get go is very very low.. unfortunately you are all accustomed to being "dickhead bandits" as its what you enjoy and the percent of bandits to survivors at the breakout is going to be highly unrealistic.. can you all not see and accept this? is being a "PvP big boy" all that you can do ? come on.. show us your RP skills and show a lil'bit of diversity..

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2 minutes ago, Rolle said:

The whole map is already a KoS zone, haven't you seen the reports?

If we peaceful RPers take a small, unused part of the map and claim it as our own with our own rules I don't think it will disrupt the hostile RP that you love so much in any way. You still have an entire map for yourself and your dank initiations and firefights. If you don't like peaceful RP just don't go to the SZ. It's not like you can stumble upon Skalisty by accident.

While I understand where you are coming from, the problem lies in what server it is on. You mentioned earlier that having it on Server 2 is a possibility and I think that would be a good compromise (not too keen on the PvE only idea tho). If we had the SZ on the same server as the people who wanted to get into more unpredictable or hostile roleplay, there would be an issue of one side taking up too many spots on the server and having a queue be active constantly. If they were separate, it would prevent that possibility. 

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12 minutes ago, Rolle said:

The whole map is already a KoS zone, haven't you seen the reports?

If we peaceful RPers take a small, unused part of the map and claim it as our own with our own rules I don't think it will disrupt the hostile RP that you love so much in any way. You still have an entire map for yourself and your dank initiations and firefights. If you don't like peaceful RP just don't go to the SZ. It's not like you can stumble upon Skalisty by accident.

I mean it does effect me it's taking players and great rp'ers i can rp with with hostile rp. As much as I think those ''dank initiations ''  are interesting i've enjoyed both sides of rp quite a bit. I have characters that play with the trust and are ''campfire'' rp'ers. And as someone who has been on both sides of the equation I feel as though it does effect other people. Idk man even when I was campfiring rp'ing with blazer and the rest of the trust, I still liked that I could be initiated on at any time. It's an important part of the dynamic that is this server and adding a place where that's impossible just seems necessary.  

 

The kos zone was a meme. I wouldn't actually want that, can't get any rp out of that. Might as well just play pubs.

 

I will say this, at least this post has brought a lot of the community together. If you join ts and look at the temp channels you'll see staff members, campfire rpers, filthy bandits, all discussing this topic so I guess that's a positive. 

Edited by Undead

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9 minutes ago, Methias said:

the problem and reality with this situation.. the ratio of people at the start of an apocalypse that would become bandits from the get go is very very low.. unfortunately you are all accustomed to being "dickhead bandits" as its what you enjoy and the percent of bandits to survivors at the breakout is going to be highly unrealistic.. can you all not see and accept this? is being a "PvP big boy" all that you can do ? come on.. show us your RP skills and show a lil'bit of diversity..

Just cause you put the flame in "Quotes" Doesn't make it less hurtful :(

But I can tell you as a "dickhead bandit" That I'm not concerned with that at all. I enjoy playing for realism, I can see myself robbing someone for food, or a weapon because I'm scared, or hungry, but I probably wouldn't kill them cause to take a life would be a big thing! Even tho I'm a "PvP big boy" My concerns rest with rivalries between two parties who want to be at the SZ at the same time, then we both get 3 day bans for saying mean things about each other.

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Guys, seriously, what's the problem? You're all saying most of the community won't like this, then cool, you can still RP elsewhere then because not a lot of people will be there. On the other hand if people do like the idea and want to use it, and hey, even if half the server is there most the time, so what? that's obviously what they want. All i'm saying is that it can and does work. Other communities have done HALF-ASS attempts at this and it worked, i'm sure you guys could do a proper job of it. It can totally fit in RP, just like how apparently up to 100 people can die in South Zagoria every day for 3 years and still have a populace from all the world. Some of those people even come back from the dead on a daily basis. Oh and the fact that there would be safezones with overwhelming force behind them, especially at the start of an outbreak. Try take on an actual military compound fully garrisoned with your ten man "dunkin" squad, see how that goes.. :P 

Why not just try it guys? :) 

And yes, i enjoy hostile RP, but i also can see quite clearly that not everybody does, and that's ok too. Right? 

Edited by KronicMunky
Spelling!

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21 minutes ago, Ghoozovich said:

1. Dealing with campers
This would be an easy fix if the people enforcing the rules in the safe zone were given authority not just over it, but around it as well, say, a radius of 500 m around the safe zone. This could also provide for some interesting interactions like, for example, a survivor is running towards the safe zone from bandits/zombies/wolves/etc and is then aided by the protectors of the zone, who would fire warning shots and then kill shots if the threat gets closer than 100 metres. Think the Duty base in STALKER. Now that's just ideas, these numbers or responses to threats are not concrete, mind you. But how would they defend the are around the safe zone if it's an island, you ask? Well, this brings me to my second point.

I really didn't want to extend any special rules beyond the SZ area itself. The distances are hard to define, there are no clear lines and it leads to odd situations on the shore where one moment you are safe and you take a few steps and you suddenly get initiated upon.

 

21 minutes ago, Ghoozovich said:

2. Safe Zone location
The islands are too isolated. I think it would be a lot more organic if the zone was somewhere on the mainland, but still away from any high-traffic areas. It gives a chance for people to randomly stumble into it in their travels or incorporate it into their routes. It would be still out of the way, but close by at the same time if it were, for example, in the Gvozdno summer camp or the Quarry near Kamensk. There also many other wonderful locations in South Zagoria, way more beautiful and appealing than the islands to the south.

Like I wrote in the OP I think it's extremely important to have clearly outlined boundaries or buffer zones and the islands fit perfectly for that.  The water buffer between island and mainland is also great because it clearly separates the SZ from the rest of the map. When we had the old TP on mainland it was often unclear where exactly the safe zone ended which lead to many awkward situations.

 

21 minutes ago, Ghoozovich said:

3. Danger in the safe zone
I think that it's good that people can feel safe inside the safe zone (duh) but we shouldn't overdo it. It's a mad world, after all, even so early on, so I think there should be some leniency here. My suggestion is to keep the no weapons IC and OOC rules but don't get completely safe space. Allowing melee weapon initiations and minor street fights that are only enforced IC'ly should be okay. For example, 4 friends find a lonely survivor chilling in the safe zone in a dark corner where the zone's protectors are currently absent. They pull out knives and bats and rob the guy and try to escape as quickly as they can because he'll already be running to alert the authorities. Again, that's just off the top of my head, but mainly I want to counter the no shit talking rule which is a tad unrealistic. Allow it, because people will be people. And then deal with it IC'ly. If they troublemakers start pulling guns, then yes, enforce the OOC rules and ban them, but if they're just having a heated argument, deal with that IC'ly, get a tribunal going, call a judge. If they stop shouting and decide to let their fists do the talking, then do the same or even exile them for X amount of time from the safe zone. I believe that would make it a lot more interesting than it being happy fun land.

In an ideal world where everyone cares about realistic RP that would work great, yes. however we have to face the reality that A LOT of people in this community are here to PvP with no KoS rule and role play is just a side effect of that. They will not play fair and when faced with a choice of authentic role play or more kills/gear/rule play, the latter will take the priority. Hence why the rules are structured the way they are. Just like you say, those things should be restricted because "people will be people".

As for dealing with things IC, I've already responded to that, we don't have human resources to do that, the SZ must be self-sustaining 24/7 if required. And the amount of trouble makers would quickly overwhelm the faction members or guards.

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25 minutes ago, Methias said:

the problem and reality with this situation.. the ratio of people at the start of an apocalypse that would become bandits from the get go is very very low.. unfortunately you are all accustomed to being "dickhead bandits" as its what you enjoy and the percent of bandits to survivors at the breakout is going to be highly unrealistic.. can you all not see and accept this? is being a "PvP big boy" all that you can do ? come on.. show us your RP skills and show a lil'bit of diversity..

I don't need to show you or whoever us is shit tbh. Since when does the opinion of community members who probably havent experienced half  these people's rp. There don't have to be bandits there can certainly be looters, and robbers and the like. Have you ever seen a riot? Put that on a country wide scale with nothing but small groups of military left to stop you. Yea gonna be plenty of hostilities . People are fucking shitty. What the fuck is a PvP big boy? What so hostile rp isn't actually rp it's just pvp? If i'm good at hostile rp it doesn't show my ''rp skills''. Please. 

Anyway getting a bit offtopic. That's not the problem and if you think it is you should check your reality. 

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6 minutes ago, Rolle said:

- snip zone -

 

Aye, fair enough, maybe I am being a bit of an optimist regarding some things since I am here to actually RP. What a weirdo, I know. But jokes aside, on a serious note, borders outside the island aren't too hard to define if the safe zone is in the right place. As long as it has walls of some description, there you have it, that's your border. But naturally, that'll have less of a buffer between the zone and the "outside world" because of the lack of water, but could be an idea for the future it goes better than expected. Which it might. I still believe in people.

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28 minutes ago, Methias said:

the problem and reality with this situation.. the ratio of people at the start of an apocalypse that would become bandits from the get go is very very low.. unfortunately you are all accustomed to being "dickhead bandits" as its what you enjoy and the percent of bandits to survivors at the breakout is going to be highly unrealistic.. can you all not see and accept this? is being a "PvP big boy" all that you can do ? come on.. show us your RP skills and show a lil'bit of diversity..

Ah yes, because people wouldn't loot at all when it comes to the apocalypse. 
Imagine if you actually made friends with other groups through RP to prevent such things, if making friends ICly to deal with said issues perhaps it's your RP you should be looking at instead of judging others so quick.

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Just now, Mexi said:

Ah yes, because people wouldn't loot at all when it comes to the apocalypse. 
Imagine if you actually made friends with other groups through RP to prevent such things, if making friends ICly to deal with said issues perhaps it's your RP you should be looking at instead of judging others so quick.

^This shit right here 

People will be ass holes no matter what you do not everyone would be "God the world ended better help my fellow man and help others before myself!"

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2 hours ago, Rolle said:

... back then serious RP wasn't as enforced as it is now.

 

 

Camp Klen. Probably my favourite of the old Trade Posts.

Edited by ChernaBus

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KronikMunky said it best, I think, with, "what's the problem?" While I certainly don't regard hostile role players as "big boy PvPers," I find it hard to not to agree with what Rolle says in that a lot of people seem to be here for PvP without KoS. To some extent that doesn't even bother me all that much, because as anyone who has ever captured me will likely tell you, I don't get bitchy about getting captured, robbed, tortured, or anything else. As long as you put in the RP, you can have your way with me any way you want.

The way I see the safe zone is that it brings another option for the people who get sick of constant initiations and torture, and I don't think it's a problem to cater to those players just as well as the server caters to the more PvP-happy crowd. Hell, if they want to make a permanent move to Skalisty (my vote for it out of the two islands) then I'm cool with that, too. I'll certainly be going there to enjoy some trading, chatting, gathering information, scouting possible future targets, etc. This doesn't in any way hinder the fun you can have anywhere else on the server, and if you feel as though this takes away some of your potential targets, I'd suggest you simply look for targets elsewhere. Bad guys attacking bad guys (in my experience) brings about much more change and great RP than bad guys going after good guys all the time. Suddenly people have to face the decision of, "wait, whose side am I on here? The Renegades or The Clowns?" That's a shitload more morally problematic than Renegades VS Outrun ever was, and to me that makes it all the more interesting.

As for suggestions for the SZ... I don't know, I'm not necessarily great with balancing rules. I would like to see less rules in regards to verbal hostilities, perhaps even fisticuffs, but I'll wait and see what makes sense to me once I get my eyes on the lore of the group that runs the place.

All in all this looks like a good thing for the server, I think, and I can't wait to see it up and running.

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