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Rory

Bad Attitude in Hostile Situations?

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14 hours ago, Tony said:

-snip-

   Hey Tony, i doooo love my discussions with you as you can keep a level head.  Now, I wouldn't be disgusted because tbh, if you read the original comments , you'd see while obviously not a personal attack, there were broad statements made at half the community. Now I consider myself in that half of community, and I spoke about it. I go into more detail with specifics in my reply to Rolle. I wouldn't say that how long someones been here has zero reflection on their ability as a roleplayer.  Sure, many could come here with all the knowledge of how to properly roleplay and play on the server right off the bat. But many have to learn from experiences that you can only get by what? Playing the game. You're right everyone was a whitename, but it's not the color of your name that makes you a whitename, it's the quality of roleplay that you provide, the knowledge you have about the server, and tbh yea most people use it as an elitist thing because they've been on the server longer than some.  Now personally I use the word to call out people who don't know what the fuck they are doing. In the instance of the posts earlier, I didn't call out her time played because I didn't believe in her roleplay capabilities but because I don't see how she can make a claim like knowing what a 'seasoned bandit ' is like, and making huge claims like ''a lot of the bandit characters are interested in RP on here.''  I'm of the opinion that if your making claims like that, you should at least know what your talking about and I don't think being here less than a month provides enough time to see all sides of any rp. 

However I agree with what you say about the report of course. Sorry for the late reply, didn't see the post.

Edited by Undead

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23 hours ago, Tony said:

Here's the thing with the disgust man, it's not just on -this topic-, it's about every topic, it's about the conversations I've heard in a teamspeak over the last year. It's this casual dismissal of new players. It's this negative stigma of new players. It is a very general uninviting attitude, an attitude that does shine poorly on us all as a community. -Whitename- is a term that only exists here. We literally invented a brand of prejudice... how can I not be disgusted? Teach them... don't shun them.

And whilst I get what you're saying, you need to address how you opened that. "What would you know? You've been here this long!" Which is the equivalent of 'GTFO NOOB'. If you said that to me back when I came in, I'd have a que of videos waiting for you, literally waiting to feed you your own foot in a manner of speaking. There's other dayz roleplaying communities. I came from 4 before I even touched dayzrp. Now here's the thing man, I belong in that half of the community as you do, but I also belong in the other half. From the second I initiate on someone though it is my personal mission to give them the best damn roleplay experience they've had. And I can safely say that is the exact same attitude regarding my group. Our entire hostile structure is built around developing peoples characters. Most of them -come back-.  That's taken the concept of seasoned bandit and transformed it into something on a whole new level.

With that said I have no issue with just jacking peoples shit, nor do I shooting someone in the face. What I take issue with is jumping down someones throat on a whim, and singling them out when they instead generalise. It's chastising someone for an opinion, which is no different than criminalising someone for a political/religious stance. You yourself are a seasoned roleplayer never mind a bandit. You literally not only know better, but you embody it. You created a name for yourself that is symbolic at this point with the community... I do not over exaggerate this. There are very few players who have literally ingrained themselves as pillars of the communities story. Something that is lore merely on the tongues of in game characters. You are Austin Maverick. You are 'The Horsemen'... a character on level with the likes of Sylvester Todd, Lyca, Duncan Evens, Joffery, Marshal... names like that.  It's symbolic... so when I say that... I expect better.

You let your emotions affect you here, no doubt over a piss poor report structure, rule structure and response structure. The fact people see their friends banned time and time again isn't going to do wonders for community moral. Especially over silly, pathetic shit. I am pissed off at it. But do not let this compromise your roleplayer conduct. Be better than that. Change what's wrong with this structure from the inside, rather than fall victim to it. It's not even the admins fault the rules are the way they are, it's the communities due to years of bitching, whining and griping about every little thing to the point they had to change the rules over and over and over because some over sensitive entitled fool wasn't happy they got robbed before their friends could save their dank lootz. This is a very by the book system, but at this point the book needs to be god damned burned because it's stopping the fun at this point. We need a new book with less of all that shit hindering our abilities as roleplayers.

 

 

Goddamn +1

I don't think I've had a post on this website I have wholeheartedly agreed more with.

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If some one keeps on shit talking after you have threatend him so many times, then in my opinion you have all the rights to kill him. The hostage taker shouldnt be punisched in this instance since he is clearly showing NVL and non-compliance.

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I admit bad attitude should be punished but only ICly. If you don't like your hostages talking smack, why not insist on gagging hostages with a rag and duct tape whilst they are handcuffed? If you really wanna push it with the torture to make em shut up, get them handcuffed on their knees over a pond or body of water and emote your foot to the back of their head forcing them to drown temporarily if you wish so. Shit, if you want information from a non-compliant hostage without the back chat, sew their lips shut and make them write it out on a piece of paper.

I understand that this conflicts with some of the interpretations of current Powergaming rules .. but in all serious, a simple gagging is not going to cause permanent scars or affect the status of ones character for an un-seeable future. Infact, I believe the ability of captors to do this to their captives would make for interesting roleplay, instead of this common mentality of killing people because of this "they spoke up when they were not meant to so I shot them" bullshit mindset. One definition of powergaming is as such, "Powergaming is the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie." ... In no way does the act of gagging actually violate that specific definition. 

Never understood why some people from both sides of the argument just get so salty in regards to the back and forth smack and then it gets onto these forums.. its a game. Think creatively how you could potentially stop a hostage or captive from speaking and realize that fantasy ingame, instead of taking the cowards way and just shooting people for the sack of it to "shut them up" and ruining RP for all.

 

0:50

Edited by Sulla

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36 minutes ago, Sulla said:

I admit bad attitude should be punished but only ICly. If you don't like your hostages talking smack, why not insist on gagging hostages with a rag and duct tape whilst they are handcuffed? If you really wanna push it with the torture to make em shut up, get them handcuffed on their knees over a pond or body of water and emote your foot to the back of their head forcing them to drown temporarily if you wish so. Shit, if you want information from a non-compliant hostage without the back chat, sew their lips shut and make them write it out on a piece of paper.

I understand that this conflicts with the Powergaming, in some interpretations but in all serious, a simple gag and tag is not going to cause permanent scars or to some degree, effect the status of ones character for an un-seeable features. Infact, I believe the ability of captors to do this to their captives would make for good roleplay, instead of this killing people because they spoke up when they were not meant to bullcrap. The definition of powergaming is such, "Powergaming is the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie." ... In no way does the act of gagging actually violate that specific definition. 

Never understood why some people from both sides of the argument just get so salty in regards to the back and forth smack and then it gets onto these forums.. its a game. Think creatively how you could potentially stop a hostage or captive from speaking and realize that fantasy ingame, instead of taking the cowards way and just shooting people for the sack of it to "shut them up" and ruining RP for all.

Now I wouldn't usually comment on threads like this, however, I feel the need to provide reasons as to why gagging and other methods of keeping a hostage quiet aren't allowed here because of the rules. The following is take from the rules page;

Quote

'Powergaming refers to forcing an action, condition or belief upon another players character beyond what the game mechanics allow.'

Stopping someone from talking by using means that aren't incorporated in the game is against the rules, therefore without permission of the person you are trying to shut up you cannot force them to keep quiet as this applies a condition that is beyond the game mechanics. The only way this could work is if you get rid of the rule, slightly extreme I know, or by giving the rules some exemptions, which I wouldn't recommend as it can be abused. 

 

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48 minutes ago, Emerald Knight said:

Now I wouldn't usually comment on threads like this, however, I feel the need to provide reasons as to why gagging and other methods of keeping a hostage quiet aren't allowed here because of the rules. The following is take from the rules page;

Stopping someone from talking by using means that aren't incorporated in the game is against the rules, therefore without permission of the person you are trying to shut up you cannot force them to keep quiet as this applies a condition that is beyond the game mechanics. The only way this could work is if you get rid of the rule, slightly extreme I know, or by giving the rules some exemptions, which I wouldn't recommend as it can be abused. 

 

 

Emerald, I agree with you to some extent in-regards to Powergaming rules. DayZ already incorporates actions that limit player actions and senses, such as handcuffs and placing burlap sacks over people's head, albeit, yes, they are in-game mechanics. For the sake of realism, which I know is a dodgy word used within this community in relation to IC and OOC actions reflected, would it not be expected in a real life situation where a captor requires a hostage to be kept alive, but whom requires censor, to gag said hostage until they've learnt their lesson instead of "ultimatum" of shooting people on the basis of speaking when captured.

For the sake of roleplay and realism, would this particular action be justified to warrant an exemption in the rules? I sure think so. I understand the concept and action of powergaming and consent, but with that in mind, there are realistic scenarios in this game that may warrant the use of a censor of particular individuals. However, I understand how this can be abused in the long-run but with certain rules in place (such as a strict time limit of censor), perhaps there may be a possibility of this happen. However.., this post is just a thought. If this suggestion is steering off the original content of the post, I do apologize and will take it somewhere else. 

 

Edited by Sulla

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Disclaimer: this reply will not be a reply to address my OOC attitude, I have already covered that in my previous replies.

 

Prior to these logs, my character was pissed off. He had also had a large quantity of painkillers put into him to help him with a wolf bite to his forearm earlier. My character was mouthy, I am fully aware of that. He commented quite a fair bit on the fact that Phoenix claimed she had saved our lives and we were out of danger, yet at the same time Stitches' character was telling us the exact opposite through his gesture. 

 

46:12 - "I don't care to hurt nobody" said by stitches. Phoenix explains it's 'good cop bad cop' situation. 

46:58 - Stitches explains that pointing a gun at me back in kab keeps his people safe.

Before this log, I had absolutely nothing to believe that we were out of danger. My character was mouthy quite a lot of the time however Phoenix took the time to explain the situation, stitches too. Stitches gave entirely valid reasoning for pointing a gun at my character. After this explanation, my character's attitude was toned down (acknowledged by Phoenix IC). My character is nowhere near as mouthy once again. 

 

49:08 - My character makes the comment that he is grateful for being alive, just not in a very good mood.

55:30 - stitches states he ain't fond of killing.

1:00:57 - stitches points a gun at me again and moves to a better position to view us.

1:04:00 - Stitches boasts about killing somebody by "doing a 180 and blasting a motherfucker"

1:06:25 - Stitches makes another threat to throw us away back to the people who originally had us captive.

1:08:00 - My character laughs at how easily Phoenix's makes it sound to find medical supplies. He makes a comment about her highness, meant more as a joke.

1:08:22 - Stitches points a gun at me again.

1:08:30 - I make a comment on the fact that Stitches claims to not want to kill people, yet most of what he has done has indicated the opposite. I say "he's full of shit" A few seconds later I am killed for said comment.

 

Now for the real analysis of my IC behaviour. Between the logs of 46:58 (prior to) and 1:08:00 my character made 0 remarks that were mouthy. That's more than 20 minutes where my character was calm, and collected and the roleplay continued through the typical hostage situation (albeit a rather calm one). This situation had Phoenix telling me constantly IC that we were out of danger, Stitches reinforcing that, and that was made evident for approximately 20 minutes. That is a long time for character emotions to calm down. 

So, in regards to stitches killing me. The roleplay prior to the cabin had been fairly calm. The situation seemed okay for both sides. Phoenix even acknowledged my character's attitude had fallen. Previous logs from the report indicate that stitches was claiming he didn't like to kill people. However, the logs from end of the video clearly state otherwise. My character laughed (rather rudely) at Phoenix's notion that medical supplies might've been easy to come by. Stitches brings up my character being mouthy once again. He now points a gun at me. This, combined with all of the previous comments about us being safe from harm, brought my character to make the comment that he thinks they are "full of shit" when they say they do not want to harm us. I am killed for this comment.

There were 20 minutes of calm roleplay between my character being mouthy the first time, and the comments that stitches killed me for. At no point in this were any situation did Stitches attempt to get my character to shut up other than with the threat of death (once directly, before my character calmed down) and actually killing me. Stitches put very little effort into actually trying to roleplay out a situation with a mouthy hostage. His go-to response was "shut up or die", the very kind situation that the rules on ruleplay try to stop. He did not need to kill me, he had many, many alternatives to try and further the roleplay. Instead he chose to kill me. Those 20 minutes of calm roleplay are very significant, it indicates a lengthy amount of time where the roleplay was the typical 'hostage / captor' situation. Only after that am I slightly mouthy once again, brought on by Stitches' IC actions.

Whilst yes he could kill me (as per rule 8.5.2) it by no means  meant he should've just executed me for this. Rule: 

  • 5.3 You may not focus on out of character gains to the detriment of RP. "Rule play" is prioritizing rules and OOC information above more appropriate IC actions or behavior. Always prioritize role play over rule play.

As shown above, the other rule involved in this situation (and ultimately the one that got Stitches the 5 day ban) aims to provoke more RP means of dealing with hostile situations. Stitches executed me for very little reasoning, the 20 minutes of calmness really solidifying what I am saying. There is some in-depth analysis of the situation above, pulling every little relevant detail as to why i am certain it was ruleplay for him to kill me.

This is the very last time i will be responding to this thread. If anybody would like to personally discuss this in a constructive manner, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, this thread clearly goes to show that the two sides of this argument will never agree with each other and thus this thread just needs to die off. 

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Both sides of this thread are the reason I haven't even attempted logging onto the servers. This thread is proof of all the shit wrong in this community.

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Stitches put up a report on Galaxy and other members of The Family for the exact same reason you did not too long ago  which for the most part was a salt fest because it didn't go his way, much like this report you threw up. It got people in trouble. Now the fact he pretty much did the exact same thing that he reported, it makes him by all accounts hypocritical. 

What this means is you're both wrong. Both sides had ample opportunity to talk this out, both times and both he and you in separate situations instead decided it wasn't worth it and went through with the report, knowing in the end it would damage the other person. Just because the rules say something, it doesn't make them 100% right. There was justification for hurting you. Would I have went as far? No... not me, but I am well aware other people might. 

Your conduct had been atrocious from the second you were in that RP right up until this point where you sit here literally trying to excuse yourself on the way you handled this, remain on a high horse and carry on like you didn't do this out of spite. 

Stiches -DESERVED- this. Let me make that clear from the get go, because no more than a week or two before this, he did exactly the same thing. This is karma if ever I saw it. But that doesn't excuse this either, because at the end of the day it's still wrong.

That book as I said needs to be burned, stop quoting it for justification for shit RP. Roleplay over ruleplay? How about REALISM OVER ALL THINGS. IC'ly doming people who step out of line set examples and besides it's not like you exactly wanted to be there. Need I remind you the example Glen served in the walking dead? And he didn't say shit, Darryl did, but that crap there was frickin -powerful-

And the thing is, yeah it'll seem like you are being singled out here, but it's only because you are the example for this particular situation. This attitude exists, it's happened hundreds of times and all of it... avoidable. It exists because of that rule structure and it exists because of a poor conduct mentality. We need to start over....we fucked up. This is DayZ Roleplay, not MyLittlePony Roleplay.

I am so -done- with self entitlement. 

Edited by Tony

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Back in like 2015 and way before then, people used to execute all the time, whether they had IC reason or not.
I remember executing @ChilliMcNugget's character Maria in Olsha when I was on my first ever character Jo Cooper.

I had taken her hostage for things she did and we were inside of a barn, she was telling me things. My character had no Reason to let her go after what she did, she needed to die. You didn't even have to ask for permission to execute back then, People just did it and nothing ever happened because that's how it was back then.
There was no such thing as a hostage shittalking you, that person would've been dead. 

Situations where you'd execute someone who didn't do anything for something their friend said are great RP but will get you a banstrike. It's dumb IMO.

Not every character will torture someone, it's sadistic. 
As long as it makes IC Sense for your character to kill someone, it should be fine. It's literally ruleplay to use the rules to protect you from dying in a hostile situation.

I agree stitches probably overreacted a little and could've beat Para up a bit, but the discussion here isn't practically about the report. That's over and done with, it's about the fact that the rules state clearly that you can execute a hostage for being mouthy, yet you get banned for it. There's a grey area and it needs to be sorted out.
 

Edited by Phoenix

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Can someone explain to me why it's not the hostages' own fault for getting killed when they badmouth their robbers? There are mentor programmes and a lot of roleplay guides available, so there shouldn't be much doubt that (much like in real life) you shut your mouth and obey when a gun is pointed at your head.

Whatever the reason might be, I think we can say for certain that once they start bad mouthing, they realise their life is in the robbers' hands and that in a real situation they would be fucked. And since there are so many guides and mentor coaching etc. I believe we want somewhat realistic RP. 

We shouldn't have such a taboo on losing your 'cool', meaning, accidentally dropping your roleplay act and being seriously pissed off for being robbed. Hostages go through this sometimes and try to get under the skin of the bandit and annoy them. "Na na na, cant touch this, I am protected by the rules!" Or even worse: "He killed me WTF I only said he was a ugly cunt. Report incoming". 

Anyway, to the point. Stop reporting bandits if you're a hostage and you've been acting like you can respawn. You know staff might just favour you, but damn, you'd be an asshole both ingame and IRL. (Just to cover myself, this is not pointed at anyone in particular).

Edited by Misty
Wunsleh

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To add further to my statement earlier, I remember a report involving Kenji and a few others and in said report Kenji was reported for shit talking and disobeying his captors which ended up with Kenji being banned for NVFL. He then posted a ban appeal going into detail why this wasn't NVFL, which also had a discussion thread where near enough the entirety of everyone who posted on the thread agreed that what Kenji did was not NVFL. When the ban appeal was solved the staff members reviewing that case also came to the conclusion that Kenji broke NVFL by not obeying his captors. So why, in this case, was the verdict not NVFL for the hostage but it was Ruleplay for the hostage takers?

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11 minutes ago, Emerald Knight said:

To add further to my statement earlier, I remember a report involving Kenji and a few others and in said report Kenji was reported for shit talking and disobeying his captors which ended up with Kenji being banned for NVFL. He then posted a ban appeal going into detail why this wasn't NVFL, which also had a discussion thread where near enough the entirety of everyone who posted on the thread agreed that what Kenji did was not NVFL. When the ban appeal was solved the staff members reviewing that case also came to the conclusion that Kenji broke NVFL by not obeying his captors. So why, in this case, was the verdict not NVFL for the hostage but it was Ruleplay for the hostage takers?

*sighs* 
I am going to say it out loud because as of the last week things have been coming up that make it so I can play less and less, and genuinely a few points if it counts as flaming or being disrespectful (which I don't agree it will be) wouldn't matter to me. 

The person who got banned has been on the hit list for a while hasn't he? I know it, the reported knows it, the reportee knows it. 
End of the day a staff member made a report about a situation that involved someone who has been in the sights of a lot of people for a while... and the report was just enough grey area for the staff to slam the verdict down on who they viewed was in the wrong ,as opposed to a full regimented and measurable right or wrong ruling, which cannot be done with all the rules so that's fine. 
They used the grey area to slam it down on the guy who has consistently been in reports to the point of being on the verge of being banned.  He is now perma'd... 

This entire thread... this entire topic, can be summed down to a grey area where neither side of the argument is fully right and in turn every case must be looked at by a staff team seperatly... 
This time, it was more advantageous to deem the line of blame fell on the hostage taker rather than hostage... 

Do I think it is an ok choice for the staff to make? Not my call, their server... 

Do I think only one party getting even aknowledged with rule breaking whilst the otehr doesn't even have their rule breaks aknowledged but with the punishment of "verbal warning" is right? Hell to the no... 

Personally I would of been chill with them admitting "hey, they both did shit wrong, but we are gonna only gonna give Para a verbal warning because he's our boy / he knows better / *Insert reason for verbal warning only here* " 

But nope... they just give him a rant and not even the aknowledgement that his actions were against the rules... 

Being biased is fine, not being honest about being biased is a cardinal sin... 

Enough said really. 

anyway without further a 

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@Emerald Knight preach +1

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34 minutes ago, The Traveler said:

This entire thread... this entire topic, can be summed down to a grey area where neither side of the argument is fully right and in turn every case must be looked at by a staff team seperatly... 
 

anyway without further a 

 Is what a guilty hostage would say. 

Everything can be summed down to a grey area and is supposed to be looked at case by case, because these in-game situations have infinite variables. Its an exploit that hostages can use should they go out of character, for whatever reason it might be, during a hostage situation. Their defense is they're a tough survivor who doesn't flinch when he's on the wrong side of the barrel. I don't see anything about that written in any roleplay guide besides "How not to rolepay".

It looks like this:

1. A bandit robs you. Fuck, you lose your gear.
2. You badmouth the bandit 
3. The bandit warns you. (If the bandit kills you, go to step 9)
4. You badmouth the bandit
5. The bandit warns you. (If the bandit kills you, go to step 9)
6. You badmouth the bandit
7. The bandit kills you.
9. You make a report for bad RP or gear RP. 

That is how a REALLY obvious situation would be. Of course, very simplified, but the problem is not grey at all. The problem is that these people are very bad at roleplaying as a hostage and containing their real-life emotions. A mix of this is deadly and reports end up in the hostage's favour if they manage to hide their bad roleplay with excuses that are not really verifiable, like saying their character is a tough guy who doesn't beg for his life. To the sum of this all, you just need to add one spark: The bias that bandits are bad at roleplaying and only care about gear, which is still a huge thing if you read the forums.  

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2 hours ago, Misty said:

The problem is that these people are very bad at roleplaying as a hostage and containing their real-life emotions. A mix of this is deadly and reports end up in the hostage's favour if they manage to hide their bad roleplay with excuses that are not really verifiable, like saying their character is a tough guy who doesn't beg for his life. To the sum of this all, you just need to add one spark: The bias that bandits are bad at roleplaying and only care about gear, which is still a huge thing if you read the forums.  

 

 

I wrote a long reply which deleted itself.

 

You get a watered down Version.

we have two categories of toxic play styles here that boil over into OOC madness.

Second Life DayzERP'ers  and DieDieNeverComplies.

 

First group is just bothered that their planned Roleplay for the evening has been ruined, so they shut down and basically act like children and unrealistically. most often they instantly start screaming on TS that they are making a report if the Initiation drops.

 

The second group thinks that they are PVP gods and aren't interested in characterization or story development.  These people hate reports and respond super aggressively when reported. if you move an inch after being initiated on you will be shot in the head because its easier for the bandit. they look for reasons to kill you.

 

 

I see you people who fit this category, ive heard you little britches scream and cry cause 1 man initiated on you. Ive heard you bad bandits say how you only want to kill and ive seen you do it. All of you terribly Suck and need to find a middle ground. maybe smoke some pot or get laid you virgins. 07 <3

 

 

--SweetJoe out.

 

 

Edited by SweetJoe

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Some really ridiculous posts in this thread.. Of course there's a chance of you getting seriously injured or dying if you don't behave as a hostage. Don't we want to play realistic here? It's just stupid to avoid death at all cost. It comes for every man in the apocolypse..

Edited by Vicious

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If you were to talk back to me I would slap you with a salmon,  It would go something like this...

//Permission to slap you with a salmon?

If you don't know what quality RP is you would probley say...

//No...

To which I would be sad that I had to take points to teach you lesson.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mr.Panda said:

//Permission to slap you with a salmon?

You don't have to ask permission to do that unless it causes them some sort of permanent Scar or Harm or something.

I've seen a lot of people overuse the //permission to... thingy lately. If it's not permanent, don't ask for permission. It just causes more unnecessary OOC Chat.

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Just now, Phoenix said:

You don't have to ask permission to do that unless it causes them some sort of permanent Scar or Harm or something.

I've seen a lot of people overuse the //permission to... thingy lately. If it's not permanent, don't ask for permission. It just causes more unnecessary OOC Chat.

You are telling me I don't have to ask to hit people with a salmon?!?!?! ... Are you sure?

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17 minutes ago, Mr.Panda said:

You are telling me I don't have to ask to hit people with a salmon?!?!?! ... Are you sure?

So long as it doesn't leave any permenant damage, yes, quite sure.

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1 minute ago, Emerald Knight said:

So long as it doesn't leave any permenant damage, yes, quite sure.

What if I hit you with the salmon and it kills you?

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Just now, Mr.Panda said:

What if I hit you with the salmon and it kills you?

No idea. If you have valid KoS rights because I didnt comply to your demand I'd be fine with that but if I did obey and you hit me and killed me that would be against the rules

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Panda said:

What if I hit you with the salmon and it kills you?

If it kills you its a DayZ Bug or the person was low on blood and it isn't your fault.
You can't just not hit someone just because it could kill em. So what if it does, they spawn at the coast.. Biggie?

We only need to ask for Permission if it could leave a permanent problem to the player.
You wouldn't IRL ask someone for permission to hit them with something lol. Just do it. Whatever happens happens.

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