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Heroes, Villains, One-Dimensional Characters : High Quality or Low Quality?

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This is actually a thread I've made in the past but I feel there is a need to bring it up again simply to gauge how much the community, roleplay, and characters have evolved since, as that was my original goal- To entice growth and prosperity with not only the characters but the community itself both in terms of quality roleplay and consistent delivery on said roleplay. Not much has been edited or removed, I'm looking to see if my opinions, viewpoints, ideas and concepts still hold up AND gauge the general idea of the community on this topic.

For future reference, I'm not trying to insult or agitate any specific group or person in question.

Finally, I didn't make this thread just to rant, I made this thread to spark discussion, debate, and for lack of a better term, controversy. I want to hear opinions, facts, arguments, everything you guys and gals have on your mind about this. I just ask that you keep it mature and civil, because I am NOT against antagonists, robbery, torture, or hostile actions, but I AM against one-dimensional characters with no real motives or reasons for their actions. A majority of my argument lies in the actual meat, content, the substance of the post- Not just the questions at the very end. Those are just to entice a response.

Quite a while ago, I was taken hostage and tortured for much longer than I would've liked. Keep in mind, this was by complete strangers, with their reason being "I'm a bad person". It really made me think about how evil characters are interpreted on DayZRP, and how cartoonishly evil and ridiculous they some of them truly are.

This sparked me to address my thoughts and ideas on how the antagonist characters are done and presented to some friends and then ask around between staff members and community members on what the whole deal was, get elaboration on rules, et cetera. Please don't post anything along the lines of "If you feel a rule was broken, then make a report", I made this topic specifically to be discussed among the community of DayZRP, not as a complaint or a venting tool.


"People's behavior makes sense if you think about it in terms of their goals, needs, and motives." - Thomas Mann

The general opinion I received was-

"A character does not need a legitimate IC or OOC reason to be evil or do evil things."

I've not been part of the community for as long as most people, I do not know if this was the accepted idea before, but I do know that it is, from my experience, the accepted idea now. I come from a different kind of community, one in which things such as motives, goals, development, character story, flaws and strengths are easy to see and discover if you put in the time and effort.

The difference between that community and this community is the amount of people in it. That community was roughly 12 - 20 people. This community is in the hundreds in terms of population and everyone lives in different timezones. Obviously that makes it more difficult for people to learn about the backgrounds, motives, and goals of a character on an individual basis, however that doesn't mean that the people should not make engaging, realistic, and in-depth stories.


"Evil is relative - and what I mean by that is that our villains are as complex, as deep, and as compelling as any of our heroes. Every antagonist in the DC Universe has a unique darkness, desire, and drive." - Geoff Johns

What I've noticed-

There's a hefty amount of antagonist characters who are evil for the sake of being evil, which takes little to no effort and most definitely does not build a good story, or give people the resources to build a good story off encounters with said characters. From my perspective, DayZRP Lore Masters and multiple Admins (Like Terra, for example, with her thread in the Lore & stories section), take immense pride in creating fantastic, elaborate stories that are both engaging to the people involved and the people watching from the sidelines. Not to mention, Lore Masters take it upon themselves to work directly with people who post group ideas to ensure that group stories and lore fit well with the story and lore of the server, and do the best they can to help mature and grow the stories they see.

The point I'm trying to get to is that despite all this, there's a severe lack of actually good villains. For every good hero, there must be an even better villain, otherwise the story will fall short. The villains I've seen and heard of on DayZRP, outside of a handful of examples, have practically no real defined goal or motive for their actions, nothing that could actually justify their interactions with people, only things in which a person could look at, shrug, and reply "Eh, good enough, I guess".


"The fact is that the antagonist in a movie the usually the most fun to play. You can stretch the role and do so much with it." - Robert Z'Dar

What I'm trying to say-

Antagonists are absolutely required. I'm not saying "There should only be good people" or "Bandits should be restricted". However, I am saying that if someone is to play an antagonist, they should put a lot of time and effort into making the antagonist dynamic, believable, and most importantly, realistic. They should put as much time, or possibly, even MORE time than those who make simple neutral or good guy characters. Of course there are good antagonist characters that have time put into them, and I'm not ignoring those characters or saying that they don't exist. They clearly do and they are absolutely fantastic. However, nothing throws off a person more than someone who acts or speaks without reason. It's a sign of a poorly thought-out routine, or story, or character. I'd like to see people put in a lot of story and depth to a character, I'd like to see people create a personal story that has a clear beginning, middle, climax, and end, I'd like to see people create good roleplay.

Some people didn't just one day abruptly go "Let's become slavers". They built up toward it and made an effort to turn a simple idea into a massive and powerful antagonistic faction that has legitimate goals, motives, and reasons for everything they do.

A lot of the antagonist roleplay typically sucks or is below average, but when it's good, it's absolutely astounding how good it can actually be. Something small and insignificant at first can be grown through proper development and storytelling to build up to a villain role in a place like this.

Keep in mind all of this also applies to hero characters as well. This wasn't made with just targeting antagonists in mind, although I focus immensely on it. All of these points could easily be turned to fit the concept of a hero character. Why is the character being a good guy hero? Do they actually have any reasons? Are these reasons realistic or cartoonish?

This also, in theory, applies to people who make the, as the community calls it, "Supersoldier" character. A character who once was or "currently" is part of a military or is based out of an armed forces unit like a PMC or a mercenary group. What reason do they have showing up in Chernarus? What do they hope to accomplish in the epicenter of the infection? Are these reasons realistic or cartoonish?


 

How do you think antagonists could be improved on DayZRP? What about the heroes?

Is the line "I'm a bad person", a justifiable excuse for an antagonist? How so? What about the opposite, "I'm a good person" being a justifiable excuse for a hero?

Do you think the way antagonists are currently handled is damaging roleplay? How about the heroes, are they damaging roleplay?

Do you think we need more or less antagonists/protagonists? Why is that?

Where do you think the issue with stuff like this lays? Laziness of a player? Inexperience in roleplay? Circumventing rules?

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Gotta agree with most of what you said here, it is kinda hard to find decent bad guys, personally i think its because of lack of development from the character in most stages (I am being very general here btw) but yeah as i said its lack of development as most people kinda tend to go oh yeah i wanna be a bad guys so thats what im gonna do rather than letting experiences shape how their character sees things, intereacts etc etc. I dont know i think its a mindset thing rather than the rp itself, character development is (IMO) What is lacking. 

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33 minutes ago, Oisín said:

Gotta agree with most of what you said here, it is kinda hard to find decent bad guys, personally i think its because of lack of development from the character in most stages (I am being very general here btw) but yeah as i said its lack of development as most people kinda tend to go oh yeah i wanna be a bad guys so thats what im gonna do rather than letting experiences shape how their character sees things, intereacts etc etc. I dont know i think its a mindset thing rather than the rp itself, character development is (IMO) What is lacking. 

So what you say is that rather than the characters letting themselves shape out to be an antagonist, the player determines that they WILL be an antagonist either by pre-writing a backstory or by streamlining their experiences in roleplay, correct?

 

That's another good thing I probably missed- People scripting their RP to follow a certain path, railroading their RP to fabricate a villain rather than let one form naturally.

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Maybe I've been lucky or hanging out with the right folks but most of my hostile encounters on DayZRP have been great. I've been robbed, beaten and tortured countless times but behind every blow I could see a glimpse of my captors motives. I don't want the "bad folks" to go all Bond vilain on me, explaining the big picture, telling me about their rough childhood or how he sold his mother for a can of BeanZ™; I want to be afraid, I want to feel his pain, I want to guess it, make my theories, find the guy again, get back to him and see if I was right. 

I've had my share of drop secs, ten weapons, but it is not the average. 

Hostile RP so far for me is top notch. I'll live the rest of my days with the vivid memory of the night someone gauged my eye out.

Your points are mostly valid but I feel like you're trying to say that you need fleshed out character to have good roleplay, and I think that's obvious.

And I believe it's tough to be a real bad guy in the virtual world when you're a not so bad guy in real world, there is some glorification of evil bound to happen.

Edited by Hoodlum

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40 minutes ago, isocade said:

Antagonists are absolutely required. I'm not saying "There should only be good people" or "Bandits should be restricted". However, I am saying that if someone is to play an antagonist, they should put a lot of time and effort into making the antagonist dynamic, believable, and most importantly, realistic. They should put as much time, or possibly, even MORE time than those who make simple neutral or good guy characters. Of course there are good antagonist characters that have time put into them, and I'm not ignoring those characters or saying that they don't exist. They clearly do and they are absolutely fantastic. However, nothing throws off a person more than someone who acts or speaks without reason. It's a sign of a poorly thought-out routine, or story, or character. I'd like to see people put in a lot of story and depth to a character, I'd like to see people create a personal story that has a clear beginning, middle, climax, and end, I'd like to see people create good roleplay.

I could not agree more. First day I joined the server, my character was one of those hero types. I found people with alike minds and I even made a group based off of it. Problem was, there were too many bad people and we couldnt overcome them. Eventually an idea for a new group was presented to me. It was a bunch of crazy scientists who conducted experiments on people. It was the most unique thing I have ever heard. I played with them and worked myself into a leadership position, and the people in the group amazed me. The amount of time they spent developing their characters blew my mind. From that point on, I developed my charecter. I went from being the generic everyday supersoldier trying to help others, to taking on a role as one of the most edgy psychotic characters. I took things that actually happened to me in game and turned them into a story. Brady Barns didnt become just one of em, "hey im a bad guy now." He changed, he was developed into what he is now. Thats why I feel disrespected when groups tell me they dont want me(which is nearly all of them). Most groups feel like a guy that literally carried around a human pet with a leash around its neck a little "too edgy." They think that the fact I have a necklace with fingers on it is too much. Little do they know ive been developing my character for MONTHS. In a few weeks I will be on the server for a year, and I will celebrate the fact that everyday I put a little bit of effort to make my character what he is now. 

As for the rest of this post, I do think there are too many antagonists. I think that there are those few who do try to be unique, and different with there characters. They try to take the opposite side of things and in the end it just doesn't work out ever. They either become an antagonist in the end or they are killed off by all the other antagonists. Its a cruel server for those trying to be unique, and sadly its not going to happen overnight where we can have nearly everyone in the server change. I dont even think anyone in the server does want to change. Over the past few months I have implemented this idea of "control" into my roleplay. Although its for RP, it is completely true. People who are antagonists have control over the weak. It feels GOOD to have control over everything. Now that theyve had a taste of this control they dont want to turn back, which is what happened to me. I started as a hero character, than once I got this idea of control(literally controlling a human being with a leash) I never turned back. 

I do think there are groups trying to turn away from the everyday generic players, such as Sine Nomine, but honestly its hard. Trying to think of something that goes away from all aspects that this server is the hardest thing. Your either a hero group saving people, or a bandit group trying to steal from people. Very few groups have strayed from this. Sine Nomine came up with a great IDEA for a group, but the goals and aspirations of the group are pointless. Yes they came up with something thats new and unique, something that brings a little spice and everything nice. But what they are doing in game, asking all the questions is pointless. I wont go into too much detail, but I do think there needs to be a little development in characters, and even groups. Unique groups need to have a real purpose, something that isnt going to go nowhere. SOF for example, got information on people, conducted experiments on people and took REAL notes on each person. We were scientists with a goal to accomplish, we did kill, we did hurt a lot of people, but atleast we were the generic supersoldier hero group, or even a group of bandits killing and stealing everything they see. 

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11 minutes ago, isocade said:

So what you say is that rather than the characters letting themselves shape out to be an antagonist, the player determines that they WILL be an antagonist either by pre-writing a backstory or by streamlining their experiences in roleplay, correct?

 

That's another good thing I probably missed- People scripting their RP to follow a certain path, railroading their RP to fabricate a villain rather than let one form naturally.

Aye pretty much, they let their OOC mentality mostly prevail over their characters, which we are all guilty of at times, of course, but yeah IMO backstories are more how you ended up here, what you done before etc. IMO again, you shouldn't have an overall predetermined mindset of I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna be a bad guy and I'm doing it because I wanna be a bad guy, not that there is anything wrong there either I've done that but its just that that limits a lot of rp options and that character may tend to follow hostile groups rather than moving on or changing due to what he/she has seen or done. As well as the fact these characters could be around for a long time, some long term consequences may not be taken into effect but that's a different topic within itself.

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I think telling people "I am a good/bad person" is a good enough way to simply explain why you're doing what you're doing. "Why did you give me this can of beans?" "I AM A MORALLY LAUDABLE INDIVIDUAL AND UPSTANDING COMMUNITIY MEMBER WHO'S DUTY IT IS TO HELP THOSE IN NEED." okay... that's a little much compared to "I'm a good guy, I like to help people." In real life I consider my self a good person, and I don't really think I have a reason to do good, I just do...

 

The same goes for hostile RP. "Why are you robbing me" "Because I want your shit, fuck you I'm a bad person, that's why" I think that's also a perfectly justifiable reason. Do you want the person to go on a 12 minutes story about how their wife was murder because they decided to be kind one time? Are you going to try and talk them out of stealing your shit? I somehow highly doubt it.

 

I would like to add, I do agree things sometimes because stale or repetitive with all encounters going into 3 categories: 1) Players who are super friendly and literally just trying to give food away. 2) Players who are super hostile and only want to fuck with other people for their own entertainment. 3) players who don't give a fuck about you, offer minimal RP and slip away when they get the chance.

 

I think player #3 is the worst. If you don't enjoy my RP or are bored, or have somewhere to go, at least have the decency to say that. The majority of my encounters have been people giving me really awkward hellos, shitty elevator talk. They're there for 30 seconds and suddenly just decided to dip, not allowing roleplay to grow or develop.

 

Finally, in an effort to breath some fresh air into RP, my friend and I have started roleplaying as two really frail and naïve foreign exchange students from Brooklyn who generally just say really absurd and stupid shit. We tend to carry all worthless supplies so if someone takes the time to rob us, they will find nothing of value too. We literally carry around books, vitamins, alcohol tinctures filled with water, and absolutely worthless shitty clothing.

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Although I've only recently joined here, I completely agree that multilayered characters will improve the RP experience. Good or bad is merely a point of view. Each character or group has choices that are weighted and deliberated on. Ultimately a choice is made that is perceived to be 'good' or at least beneficial from the decider's standpoint. If another party has a conflicting opinion about that decision, it is perceived as 'bad'. 

To be able to judge actions and occurrances from our character's perspective is what allows for great roleplay, not the OOC perspective that is brought to the table. 

As a newcomer I strive to progress my character in game, rather than relying on backstory alone. The choices I am faced with determine which path I'll take. The problem is that we're 2+ years into the apocalypse and character development in game is crystalizing. A lore wipe will certainly help newer players like me to grow to be more interesting.

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This made me think of the Stanford Prison Experiment a little. Even if people aren't evil, or never thought they could be, being in a position of power will change how they behave. That might include being a leader of a group or having someone tied up on their knees in front of them.

While some people create characters just to be a "baddy", some people can't help it. This comes from how they really try to show everyone else their characters mindset, and even how their own OOC mindset is. People like being in power, as well as showing off.

I find characters that are evil or bad justified by the classics, "My entire family was murdered in front of my eyes" or "I was tortured for weeks upon weeks", are shallow. Using the first example, psychologically speaking, having your entire family murdered in front of you, and getting out of feeling lost and massively depressed, as well as not having ended your life at this point, will most likely push you to seeking revenge. Pushing that anger onto other people, and going on a torture spree towards people who were innocent to that situation, unless you have one or more mental disorders, either from before or that was triggered by the experience, seems completely unrealistic to me. If you have managed to avenge your family, it could go multiple ways, you can end your life because you reached your goal and want to be reunited with your family again, or you wander aimlessly until you manage to find a new goal to latch on to. If not being able to avenge your family, losing motivation and becoming "dull" seems like the most likely outcome.

I've personally experienced many GREAT hostile RP-sessions, from being tortured myself, or just robbed, to doing the same back. My first character went from being a nice, quiet and shy girl in to a more "bad/evil" mindset, mainly for her own protection, because she was scared. She joined those who had tortured her, but eventually left when she felt they were a threat to the life of her unborn child.

However, the above is mainly targeted at baddies. When it comes to hero-types or nice characters, I find it much easier to justify their actions.

This can be everything from a good upbringing, happy family etc. to having experienced something, may that be good or bad, in life that either makes them who they are, or they turn for the better. In our society, and world views, no one is born bad or evil, that is something we learn or pick up later in life. Having a nice character doesn't need as deep of an explanation or justification imo, than a bad character needs.

Like Hoodlum said, and I couldn't agree more,

2 hours ago, Hoodlum said:

It's tough to be a real bad guy in the virtual world when you're a not so bad guy in real world, there is some glorification of evil bound to happen.

To answer some of your questions directly,

Do you think we need more or less antagonists/protagonists?:

No, I don't think there should be "two" specific storytellers, like in books. While role-playing is storytelling, it is not just one POV on the good side and one POV on the bad side. The concept of DayZRP is to keep it as realistic as possible (with all the weird bugs and zombies and stuff ;-) ). Therefore I think that it should rather be a spectrum of people, like in real-life. Basically, imagine high school, there are nice people, bad people, people who keep to themselves, groups of friends, groups of people with the same background (i.e. sports, or in DayZRP's case as an example, military.)

Where do you think the issue with stuff like this lays?:

Some people like to create as little background/be as minimalistic as possible for their character so they can develop them through experience and everyone elses storytelling. Some people don't know where to go with their characters and takes it as it comes, basically no background at all, just a name, usually they tell people to fuck off when asked about their past. Others role-play themselves, or use themselves as inspirations. I don't think that many people put massive efforts into background, voice/speech, acting, how their bodylanguage work (for the those who either only textrps or do both). So laziness might be a big factor. Not everyone think there is that much behind a person or their behaviour. People like myself, who aren't used to writing, finds stuff like this hard and end up with a very "flat" mindset towards this. Examples being,

"X gave food to Y for free, because X is very nice", and, "Y offered X food for free, but X said no and decides to hold him up at gunpoint to take the food by force, because X is bad", and while thinking this, having "This is TOTALLY justified" on repeat in their head.

Some people do try and circumvent the rules though, by creating a character that is a serial killer so they can kill without consequences. Luckily, this is against the rules! :D

 

Edited by Bunny

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4 hours ago, Bunny said:

I find characters that are evil or bad justified by the classics, "My entire family was murdered in front of my eyes" or "I was tortured for weeks upon weeks", are shallow.

You can thank movies for that. People that have never encountered actual evil IRL and have only seen it in movies/bad soap operas apparently tend to think that's actually how that works.

 

Personally I just start each character with a background and an amalgamation of personal goals and limits and just see where it takes him/her. Admittedly so far that's usually defaulted to me being a nice guy, but I don't feel restricted to that. My guy might naturally default to helping strangers in need, but if the situation calls for it I'll take a few fingers. IMO leads to deeper, more meaningful characters than linear one-track minds.

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I have been playing my main character (Axel Rike) for some time now and he started as a more lawful good type of character with emotional and moral dilemmas.

He has now evolved into a hyper survival-sensed Leader of people and is very detached and morals have changed to the current world. He was a cop and a damn good one. But he couldn't be defined by a true hero or bandit tag as his moral alignment shifts to his needs to keep his people safe.  

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A few responses here talk more about their character and method of designing said character rather than the discussion of the main topic.

 

On 3/18/2017 at 8:51 PM, Bunny said:

-snip-

I like a lot of what you say here. People who get a taste of power grow addicted to it quickly and look to stay in control, in power. I'm starting to agree with the thought that it's not that people don't put effort into their stories or don't think it's necessary, but more because they haven't actually given it an extensive thought- So it's not that they're intentionally slacking on it, but rather that they're more focused on a very barren template and hope to get the rest of the story in-game, but run into people who don't really help contribute toward building a story for the character.

 

On 3/18/2017 at 7:54 PM, ArnieB87 said:

The problem is that we're 2+ years into the apocalypse and character development in game is crystalizing. A lore wipe will certainly help newer players like me to grow to be more interesting.

Forgive me for cherrypicking this part of your post out. Four or five months ago if you had said this to me, I'd have swore up and down and argued for ages- But to be quite, a lore wipe does honestly seem like the best course to take for both the life expectancy of the server and for the roleplay quality to start going back up. In addition to that, it'll also help new players significantly.

 

On 3/18/2017 at 7:37 PM, Stellaboy said:

The same goes for hostile RP. "Why are you robbing me" "Because I want your shit, fuck you I'm a bad person, that's why" I think that's also a perfectly justifiable reason. Do you want the person to go on a 12 minutes story about how their wife was murder because they decided to be kind one time? Are you going to try and talk them out of stealing your shit? I somehow highly doubt it.

It's not that at all. Although it'd be a bit cartoon-ish for something like that to happen, what I'd like to see is some other kind of reason aside from "I'm a bad person" or "I want your shit", even if it's a lie. Aside from "Wrong place, wrong time", I've yet to have been given a reason as to why these hostile acts are happening. Many people say "It's the apocalypse, everyone is an asshole, get over it" but I do believe that's a poor reason to explain why a character is the way they are. No one needs to get their life story explained every time they do a hostile act, that's not the goal or message I'm trying to pass along. What I'm trying to say is - If you're going to the acts and dialogue of a bad person, allow it to have some kind of depth that's been both written and developed.

 

On 3/18/2017 at 6:55 PM, Brady said:

-snip-

Although your post came before Bunny's, the topic of control comes up here. The idea of being able to control groups of people should be expanded a bit more, at least from my viewpoint. I've only seen one kind of control going around in the past- Control through fear. Masquerade, Coldwater, Kingdom, New Moon, et cetera. Yes, they do have a lot of people, but that only supplements the reason as to why they truly control, which is fear. People are afraid of running into these kinds of groups at a bad time because they'll lose everything, or get taken as a slave and sold off somewhere, or be forced to work on some kind of project.

Now the problem doesn't lie with those groups at all, the problem lies with the niche group of people who encounter those groups and deny their roleplay in one way or another.

Someone taken by Masquerade, they repeatedly try to run away until they're gunned down or executed. Why? They don't want to roleplay with them and instead decide to risk a NVFL violation so they can roleplay elsewhere. Seen it happen a couple times.

Someone taken by Plantation/New Moon or whoever ran the plantation idea into the ground like thirty times- They work and work and then eventually are let go or escape (not sure how it works, never experienced it myself), but then instead of letting their character be developed from the experience, they just act as if nothing happened until the topic comes back up again, then they try the best they can to shoot up the group that wronged them because reasons, rather than try to avoid the group or rally against said group, anything aside from channel their inner CS:GO and go on a rampage.

 

On 3/18/2017 at 6:53 PM, Hoodlum said:

-snip-

It'd be bitter of me to say "you've just been roleplaying with the right people" or "you're just lucky, you'll see". It'd also be a poor argument. What you say in the post is true, but to think that's a majority of the antagonists that're in DayZRP would be foolish of anyone. It's a very nice idea, but I'm not quite ready to call it a reality just yet. Perhaps that's just my own restraints telling me to hold back. Having an antagonist go, as you say, Bond Villain on someone would be borderline-comical, however as mentioned above, I'd like to see some kind of reasons for their actions even if it'd be a lie. I've been told by various people in OOC (forums, teamspeak, etc) that there is no need to have a reason to be a bad guy because it's the apocalypse. However, when asked about a good guy, I've been told there needs to be a reason to be a good guy because it's the apocalypse.

I'd say a bit more but my time is running short at the moment of making this post.

Thank you all for the contribution and discussion, I hope to see a bit more of it next time I return!

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Ahhh, Stuff like this.

I've always thought about stuff like this, but a lot of people like playing the bad guy. I hear this sort of thing in real life to, I always hear my lot saying to lads in the street and stuff " We all can't be a badman can we? " and it's the same for DayZRP, We all can't be the edgy bad guy.

I mean, at the end of the day mate we can't limit how many good guys and bad guys there actually are, but I get what you're saying 100%. I mean, personally for me, I hopped in game the other night, met a good lad that legit rolled with me for a good 3 Hours IC before I logged off. I've not been initiated on in a long time... A very long time. I think that's probably because the way I speak in game and the things I do make's people think " This guys got back up, don't do it " I guess. I do wish however that people legit like, character develop a lot more.

For example, one of my favourite characters, Daniel Balfour went from a 100% bitch to a full on Merc when he found out Bobby Balfour was his father (I know, great RP Right?). This was due to character development.

But yeah mate, I get what you're sayin' but... It's just one of them, we can't really do anything about it. 

Just one of them mate. 

 

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