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John

Issues this Community is facing

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John    270

@Rolle It seems to me that there are three major issues in the community that have been persistent for some time  If more people would like to add their own issues (and a detailed breakdown) then I would be all for it.

  1. A lack of standardization of punishments for forum and in-game rule breaks: There has been a pretty consistent trend toward opaque, confusing, and incongruous punishments.  Some scream bias, but I think it has more to do with a lack of transparency and an adequate explanation of why punishments are as severe as they are.  If you want more severity against rule-breaks in the community, then that's fine; but at the very least make these decisions and goals more apparent so that the Community writ large can adapt to them without needless bans.  Bans are what dissuade people for exploring new forms of RP, meeting new people, or voicing their opinions.  We're not perfect beings here; we have emotions and concerns and many in the Community are simply young.  With standardized, transparent punishments, the Community could better mould itself to the direction you want to take it, rather than forcing change through attrition alone.
  2. Slow development time and "stale RP": Now the first portion of this is entirely out of your hands (but it's a gripe that I'm sure you've heard nonetheless).  However, the stale RP that has taken over the Community, in my opinion, is more out of a lack of ambitious initiative from RP'ers on the whole.  There's been discussions (and perhaps consensus) on a lore reset either next update or for Beta, but thus far no real plans for that, from what I've seen.  In the meantime, there should be an attempt to view the current state of RP and determine why it's gone so downhill.  I think the real issue is that there has been no vision taken by Staff to drive the RP in a specific direction.  In this quasi-anarchistic system you've created, the people who want to only Bandit RP will continue to only Bandit RP (and shit on anyone who prefers Campfire RP or Hero RP or whatever other RP) and then every other type of RP'er will continue their own type as well.  This makes it so that things become predictable.  The same players keep rehashing the same ideas (sometimes quite literally) with different characters or ones that should have died a long time ago.  Attempts to change the face of the RP (Settlements, Factions, soft-Perma rules) have put a bandage on a bullet hole (except, unlike in DayZ, that bandage isn't doing shit to stop the bleeding ).  If you create a clear vision for the RP and push it toward a goal (whatever that may be), then you would probably see some actual character and group development and the RP would become fresh again.
  3. A divide between new members, OGs, and staff/you: This is a deep one.  Lately, it seems that there has been a growing rift between OGs and the Staff, with new members getting sucked into the void it's created.  OGs have been pretty vocal as of late and have been consequently silenced or so frustrated they've worn themselves out.  Staff and ownership have taken more sever steps toward stopping such frustrations from being voiced.  For instance, Staff Feedback.  It was closed because you were tired of seeing people only preaching "staff bias" or giving negative feedback.  While that's not entirely accurate (I saw plenty of people say things like "great job Staff!" or "keep up the good work!"), I think that if a majority of the feedback thread is saying there is perceived bias, then you need to take a look at the way things are structured in order to eliminate that perception (see point 1).  Or, you could eliminate the people who have made that observation; but again, that doesn't solve the problem.  New members are now being caught in the middle of this very public divide and as a result (though I've not seen the metrics), I would posit that most new members don't hang around long, or are given points and bans and don't come back.  This is making it so that there is no fresh blood coming in willing to make suggestions because those who do are quickly banned and those who don't will see OGs or veterans shut down or silenced for being "memers" or "instigators."  While I'm not a fan of memes myself, there are more constructive ways to approach your Community than by seeing it burn.  Scorched earth policies are great in the short term, but once the dust settles and the embers turn to ash, your lands are barren and your people are left in the cold.  A successful business (that relies on "premium" members) can't survive if the people who've given to it continue to be silenced for wanting their money to mean something.

-snipped- tags for people to see the post.

Edited by Static

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Post    0

Lol. Um, well I'd post but not sure @Rolle really wants my opinion or thoughts, though I still love him deep down. If it's wanted or asked sure I'd offer ideas constructively, but I don't want to waste my time if nothing is looking to change.

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Ron    809

" A divide between new members, OGs, and staff " but pointing certain people out to share thoughts instead of appreciating everyone's opinion on the matter ... appears weird to me.

Edited by Ron

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John    270
Just now, Ron said:

" A divide between new members, OGs, and staff " but pointing certain people out to share thoughts instead of appreciating everyone's opinion on the matter ... appears weird to me.

To be clear, I did ask Mental to bring along anyone with a dissenting view.  I only tagged people who I'd seen on previous posts that take care to provide good arguments and don't derail things by being dicks or lashing out with passive aggressive memes. Also, Ron, the following isn't directed at you, but anyone who reads this:

ANYONE IS OBVIOUSLY FREE TO DISCUSS THIS, I TAGGED PEOPLE WHO WOULD I THOUGHT WOULD BE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED.

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Rolle    2932

1. We have standardized punishments for reports that the staff follows. I'm not sure if the list is available in public anywhere (the one I found is a sticky in GM forums), but it's pretty well known what gives 3, 5 and 7 day bans. I'm unsure what exactly you mean in this point?

2. Well, I can create new rules and enforce them, but I can't force people or groups to push forward their development and create awesome story lines. I set the frame around the picture, but you the players must create the painting. It's something that the LM team takes care of.

3. People will always scream bias when things don't go the way they want to, it's the easiest way to shift blame and it has been happening since the beginning. We still have plenty of newcomers joining the website and attempting whitelist, just take a look at the home page statistics. Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to discuss or suggest in this point, can you dumb it down for me?

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Ron    809
4 minutes ago, Static said:

To be clear, I did ask Mental to bring along anyone with a dissenting view.  I only tagged people who I'd seen on previous posts that take care to provide good arguments and don't derail things by being dicks or lashing out with passive aggressive memes. Also, Ron, the following isn't directed at you, but anyone who reads this:

ANYONE IS OBVIOUSLY FREE TO DISCUSS THIS, I TAGGED PEOPLE WHO WOULD I THOUGHT WOULD BE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED.

Alright, then it simply appeared different to me as it was meant probably -  Thanks for clearing that up.

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Caesar    438

@Rolle

Probably not a bad idea to sticky a similar (nicer looking) post on top of the report forums for guidance. Also GM's need to stop using the "case by case" basis terminology as it doesn't particularly properly describe the intention. 

Standards that are modified by the circumstances is a better description (only if appropriate).

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AndreyQ    0

1. What Rolle said. The standard punishments used to be in the rules, not sure why they are gone.

2. Seeing as the lore wipe is not happening anytime soon, expect RP to be like this for the next months. I played yesterday and it was horrible at best. There is not fix to it.

3. While there is a wall between some members of staff and the community, that's not the case with all. There are a few that are approachable and just because we question one's judgement does not mean there is a "divide" just conflicting opinions or mistakes.

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John    270
19 minutes ago, Rolle said:

1. We have standardized punishments for reports that the staff follows. I'm not sure if the list is available in public anywhere (the one I found is a sticky in GM forums), but it's pretty well known what gives 3, 5 and 7 day bans. I'm unsure what exactly you mean in this point?

2. Well, I can create new rules and enforce them, but I can't force people or groups to push forward their development and create awesome story lines. I set the frame around the picture, but you the players must create the painting. It's something that the LM team takes care of.

3. People will always scream bias when things don't go the way they want to, it's the easiest way to shift blame and it has been happening since the beginning. We still have plenty of newcomers joining the website and attempting whitelist, just take a look at the home page statistics. Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to discuss or suggest in this point, can you dumb it down for me?

 

Sure thing.

  1. My issue with standardized punishments is twofold: the first (and primary) being it isn't publicly available (to my knowledge), the second being punishments are doled out for things that go outside the norm like the Chernov issue (don't want to start a separate discussion about that since that's where I came from) and in recent knowledge the decision to change the way false reports are handled.  
  2. I understand the analogy, but I think the frame is...fraying?  It seems that RP has staled because that frame is not as clearly defined as it once was.  Without it, we're a bunch of toddlers running around wildly marking walls with crayons.
  3. I think the bias argument can be put to rest (at least in part) by making public those standardized punishments for both game and forum infractions and sticking to them.  I think that the Whitelist applications are not a particularly good indicator of retention (again, I don't know where to find retention metrics).  It seems to me however that new players will play for a bit, see things are less than ideal (or get points/temp-bans for rule breaks that they don't fully understand), and decide not to return to the community.
Edited by Static
So el Presidente can see it

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Shark    0
9 minutes ago, Rolle said:

1. We have standardized punishments for reports that the staff follows. I'm not sure if the list is available in public anywhere (the one I found is a sticky in GM forums), but it's pretty well known what gives 3, 5 and 7 day bans. I'm unsure what exactly you mean in this point?

I'd have to disagree on this point, given the recent 7 day ban (later 5) for what was considered RDM. When everyone else seems to see it as a standard RDM but it is punished well above and beyond what everyone is used to, it does make us curious as to what else may be changed. I'm still unsure if the RDM standard of 3 days was completely removed or if it was still down to misunderstandings. 

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John    270
3 minutes ago, Andrey said:

1. What Rolle said. The standard punishments used to be in the rules, not sure why they are gone.

2. Seeing as the lore wipe is not happening anytime soon, expect RP to be like this for the next months. I played yesterday and it was horrible at best. There is not fix to it.

3. While there is a wall between some members of staff and the community, that's not the case with all. There are a few that are approachable and just because we question one's judgement does not mean there is a "divide" just conflicting opinions or mistakes.

1. Great, I'd love to see this return

2. Disappointing, but fair.  I would like to see more discussions driven by the LMs to plan for that wipe, as well as updates to the progress being made in that regard.

3. I think it's more of a perceived rift that adversely affects new members' perceptions of the Community.  While the divide may be imagined, the tension is certainly there and it affects new people.

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Brad    158

A lot of my current concerns are in this thread

(where we had some pretty good discussion that I'm hoping @Rolle will look upon, if not already, and consider the ideas put there regarding opening/changing feedback)

Obviously there are some things that are going on right now that won't be solved over-night, but I can agree there seems to be a larger disconnect between the community (especially some veteran members) and staff then ever before, but the hope would be this can repaired with some respect and thoughtful discussion.  

Edited by Brad
Forgets to link thread

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Rolle    2932
21 minutes ago, Static said:

Sure thing.

  1. My issue with standardized punishments is twofold: the first (and primary) being it isn't publicly available (to my knowledge), the second being punishments are doled out for things that go outside the norm like the Chernov issue (don't want to start a separate discussion about that since that's where I came from) and in recent knowledge the decision to change the way false reports are handled.  
  2. I understand the analogy, but I think the frame is...fraying?  It seems that RP has staled because that frame is not as clearly defined as it once was.  Without it, we're a bunch of toddlers running around wildly marking walls with crayons.
  3. I think the bias argument can be put to rest (at least in part) by making public those standardized punishments for both game and forum infractions and sticking to them.  I think that the Whitelist applications are not a particularly good indicator of retention (again, I don't know where to find retention metrics).  It seems to me however that new players will play for a bit, see things are less than ideal (or get points/temp-bans for rule breaks that they don't fully understand), and decide not to return to the community.

1. Chernov thing is a call by me, it goes outside all rules and standard punishments. This will never change as it's the only tool against abuse of grey areas in the rules. And I don't like the idea of having my hands bound and get spit in my face in my own community and not be able to do anything about it.

2. The frame was just refurbished, with new rules that were open for suggestion from the community for many many weeks and there were multiple release candidate drafts that all community members could comment on. Dozens of suggestions were created which helped to shape the frame to what it looks now. Some parts are my own additions (like the settlements and factions), but the rest was up to debate. I do not think there is anything wrong with how the rules work right now.

3. Well, any suggestions how to keep players who haven't read the rules properly, without banning them? For example I had an idea that newcomers should be given some slack and not get warning points when they make simple mistakes on the forums, to increase retention and not have people leave the community over petty things. But then a thread was created where people complained that it was bias and everyone should be treated equally and receive warnings. So that went into the bin.

I don't think the current dissatisfaction with staff and newcomer retention rate are affecting each other too much. I see similar numbers on registration and whitelist acceptance as I did pre-0.61, when we had similar activity.

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Dax    116
5 minutes ago, Tosh said:

I'd have to disagree on this point, given the recent 7 day ban (later 5) for what was considered RDM. When everyone else seems to see it as a standard RDM but it is punished well above and beyond what everyone is used to, it does make us curious as to what else may be changed. I'm still unsure if the RDM standard of 3 days was completely removed or if it was still down to misunderstandings. 

The punishment length was derived at by both cow and myself, This was done because of a post saying that things had changed internally in staff but unfortunately due to some clarification it ended up at the 7 days it was originally verdicted as and then reduced for obvious reasons. The original punishment assigned was within the standard punishments guide lines we adhere too on such things at the time of writing it.

 

With that said the amount of virulous posts going on is ridiculous, I'm not denying that there has been issues but WE are trying to address those currently and get our house back in order, but its also a double edged sword as we also need the community to be onboard as well. Sure you can be critical and express an opinion but please do it politely and in a constructive manner and then there wont be any problems. Those of you that know me from my time here before should know im fair and will freely listen to anyone who wants to express concerns about an issue.

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Caesar    438

Dax explained it more eloquently than I did.

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John    270
2 minutes ago, Rolle said:

1. Chernov thing is a call by me, it goes outside all rules and standard punishments. This will never change as it's the only tool against abuse of grey areas in the rules. And I don't like the idea of having my hands bound and get spit in my face in my own community and not be able to do anything about it.

2. The frame was just refurbished, with new rules that were open for suggestion from the community for many many weeks and there were multiple release candidate drafts that all community members could comment on. Dozens of suggestions were created which helped to shape the frame to what it looks now. Some parts are my own additions (like the settlements and factions), but the rest was up to debate. I do not think there is anything wrong with how the rules work right now.

3. Well, any suggestions how to keep players who haven't read the rules properly, without banning them? For example I had an idea that newcomers should be given some slack and not get warning points when they make simple mistakes on the forums, to increase retention and now have people leave the community over petty things. But then a thread was created where people argued that it was bias and everyone should be treated equally and receive warnings. So that went into the bin.

I don't think the current dissatisfaction with staff and newcomer retention rate are affecting each other too much. I see similar numbers on registration and whitelist acceptance as I did pre-0.61, when we had similar activity.

1. Fair enough, like I said my primary concern is having these punishments made public/easily accessible again.

2. I was away from the Community (RL stuff) for a good chunk of time these discussions took place.  So, admittedly, I am at a bit of a disadvantage in this regard.  I just haven't seen much of an update lately.  The Settlements/Factions are good in theory, I do think that more work needs to be done to polish it.  I like it though, it is a good example of an executive implementation that shakes up RP and could possibly advance it.

3. Please check out this post.  Many of my thoughts on the matter of retention are there.

5 minutes ago, Dax said:

-snip-

With that said the amount of virulous posts going on is ridiculous, I'm not denying that there has been issues but WE are trying to address those currently and get our house back in order, but its also a double edged sword as we also need the community to be onboard as well. Sure you can be critical and express an opinion but please do it politely and in a constructive manner and then there wont be any problems. Those of you that know me from my time here before should know im fair and will freely listen to anyone who wants to express concerns about an issue.

 

2 minutes ago, Caesar said:

-snip-

Not to step on toes, but can we keep it on topic here?  I'm glad that situation was sorted.

Dax, I think that's what I'm trying to do here.  My suggestions have usually been thorough and open to discussion.  Can't speak for everyone, of course.

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Wendsill    0
18 minutes ago, Dax said:

With that said the amount of virulous posts going on is ridiculous, I'm not denying that there has been issues but WE are trying to address those currently and get our house back in order, but its also a double edged sword as we also need the community to be onboard as well. Sure you can be critical and express an opinion but please do it politely and in a constructive manner and then there wont be any problems. Those of you that know me from my time here before should know im fair and will freely listen to anyone who wants to express concerns about an issue.

I'm glad you are saying that you are approachable and willing to listen to issues the community has. I'm also glad we have to be contructive and politely when we formulate those concerns, but lets be honest nothing has changed lately, nor will going to change at all. No matter how things are formulated, you (staff) will pretend to listen but not amend your ways even when those ways area clearly wrong. 

Show me staff is willing to amend and I might adjust, untill then you and every other staffmember is -to put it bluntly- just full of bull.

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John    270
11 minutes ago, Wendsill said:

I'm glad you are saying that you are approachable and willing to listen to issues the community has. I'm also glad we have to be contructive and politely when we formulate those concerns, but lets be honest nothing has changed lately, nor will going to change at all. No matter how things are formulated, you (staff) will pretend to listen but not amend your ways even when those ways area clearly wrong. 

Show me staff is willing to amend and I might adjust, untill then you and every other staffmember is -to put it bluntly- just full of bull.

Looks like they're willing to amend to my position that punishments should be posted publicly. 

Looks like they're willing to discuss member retention. 

This post is indicative of the insulting, rude dissenters they're talking about. You may call it blunt, but there's a difference between being succinct and being brief but rude. 

Edited by Static

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AndreyQ    0
49 minutes ago, Static said:

 I would like to see more discussions driven by the LMs to plan for that wipe, as well as updates to the progress being made in that regard.

Trust me, they want to do that as well.

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Wendsill    0
3 minutes ago, Static said:

Looks like they're willing to amend to my position that punishments should be posted publicly. 

Looks like they're willing to discuss member retention. 

This post is indicative of the insulting, rude dissenters they're talking about. You may call it blunt, but there's a difference between being succinct and brief but rude. 

Maybe you should have browsed the forum abit and read all the posts where staffmembers promise all kind of things and then see for yourself how many of those promises have been kept, or how many times concerns like these have been posted and staff promised to listen.

I'd have been insulting if I'd take things down to a personal level, or if I singled out a person, neither of which I've done. Whats insulting is that the community points out issues for months and that nothing happens with it.

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AndreyQ    0

Also the tension you are talking about it's mostly created by people that hop in every staff related thread just to insult them without giving a shit about actually improving this place. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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John    270
4 minutes ago, Wendsill said:

Maybe you should have browsed the forum abit and read all the posts where staffmembers promise all kind of things and then see for yourself how many of those promises have been kept, or how many times concerns like these have been posted and staff promised to listen.

I'd have been insulting if I'd take things down to a personal level, or if I singled out a person, neither of which I've done. Whats insulting is that the community points out issues for months and that nothing happens with it.

I gave you a clear example in this very thread where a staff member and Rolle both agreed with me on something and it seems they'll try to amend it.

Either contribute to this topic or begone. I don't want to see useless posts on my thread.

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Castiel    1124
2 minutes ago, Andrey said:

Also the tension you are talking about it's mostly created by people that hop in every staff related thread just to insult them without giving a shit about actually improving this place. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is accurate. While there is a large amount of people who only want to see this place succeed and grow, there are of course a few people who just want to be toxic and jump on the bandwagon to insult every so often. Never once have I considered Chernov to be one of these people and I think his warning history shows that. He was not spitting anywhere. If you want to ban the toxic people from this community then go ahead, it's your community, but at least get them and not just anyone whose singular post pisses you off. Hell, one of them is in this thread.

I personally don't think there is anything that the Staff team specifically can do to increase the quality of role play on the servers, that one is up to each and every one of us. Give what you expect to receive.

As for the newcomer retention, I believe implementation and proper use of the mentor programme as a form of rehabilitation is a more positive way to "punish" newcomers who break the rules. If I got banned in my first week for something I didn't fully understand yet (and you cannot, reading the rules does not equal applying them IG) I would feel disheartened to say the least. They should be given the choice between a week or two in the mentor programme with an experienced role player, or the standard ban punishment for their rulebreak. Hell, even getting dragged into a Staff channel and have the rule and situation explained to them by a Staff member who knows what they're talking about would be good enough to help a newcomer understand what they did wrong and want to continue playing. I've banned enough people in reports to know that people don't really learn from their mistakes with this system. Every month or so there is a small wave of new players who continually get into reports and punished for the same things over and over until they are eventually permabanned for it and replaced by another group of newcomers who are destined for the same fate.

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Castiel    1124

Well that's one toxic person gone. dealwithitparrot.gif

Perhaps now we can discuss the thread's topic. I'd be interested to know what the Staff team thinks of the idea above, not mine by any means but several ideas I've seen from community members mushed into one post.

Edited by Castiel

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