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Jared

New NLR rules

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Jared    9

Back in the day if you were killed  you only remembered the events leading up to it and that's it. This prevented ongoing hostilities of "You shot me, i remembered because I didn't die". The only questionable thing that used to happen is that individuals whom you executed conveniently came back but with no knowledge. Now you just remember everything? How does that work? Doesn't that just give people even more reasons to be super hostile and give more execution rights? I have heard on multiple occasions in game of scenarios including one where someone got shot in the chest in front of everyone and days later he just strolls in the camp with full knowledge and starts beef with the people who did it. HOW IS THIS A THING? 

Edited by Jared

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William    398

Not really sure why they changed it to be honest, but once you die you don't have KOS rights on your killer, obviously. 

I do agree that it can be pretty frustrating

Edited by Will

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Jared    9
1 minute ago, Will said:

Not really sure why they changed it to be honest, but once you die you don't have KOS rights on your killer, obviously. 

I do agree that it can be pretty frustrating

It really has nothing to do with frustration, just stupidity. How are storylines suppose to complete or feuds stop if there is never an end. No conclusions, just constant fighting? If I wanted a problem to be somewhat resolved before, I shot you in the face and that was it. You don't remember it, you can't. 

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I was a fan of this because of many reasons.  

1.  The awkwardness of running into your attackers.   "Yeah we fucked that guy up for messing with us."   "uhh I don't know what you are talking about I don't remember".   "Like yeah dude, you were shit talking us, we captured you told you not to mess with us."     "Yeah I dont remember sorry man"

Or

"Dude why are you so hostile toward me for "      "ummm because we have gotten in a lot of firefights and you killed my people". 

"ummm I dont remember.  sorry cant help you out with that one."      "Yeah dude, we battled.  I shot you."

Umm yeah sorry bro, dont remember that at all either."

2.  It allows built up hostilities.  You can remember that epic 40 minute execution now and have an actual IC grudge.  It was supposed to make people think twice before killing someone because execution rights.  

 

Now after the smoke as cleared, I feel that this rule is extremely weak.  Now if this rule was paired with some time of permadeath then I can see it working much better.

@Cow made a thread about that a month ago.  Who knows if that will ever get done though. 

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William    398
8 minutes ago, Jared said:

It really has nothing to do with frustration, just stupidity. How are storylines suppose to complete or feuds stop if there is never an end. No conclusions, just constant fighting? If I wanted a problem to be somewhat resolved before, I shot you in the face and that was it. You don't remember it, you can't. 

Well from an RP standpoint that's not the best way to solve an issue. Is it? I'd rather toture someone who I had problems with, so they would remember it, but that's just me of course. 

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Kat    101

But since your character never really dies, unless you decide to perma, there was always the possibility of interacting again at some point.  Putting the new rule in allows for continuation of a hostile relationship.  Now, this is not to say that the "victim" should show up the next day like nothing happened.  The intent seems to have been to allow the shot character the time to heal from his catastrophic wound and build some hate and animosity toward those who shot him.  Whether people are playing that way or not, is an entirely different topic.

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Jared    9
7 minutes ago, Will said:

Well from an RP standpoint that's not the best way to solve an issue. Is it? I'd rather toture someone who I had problems with, so they would remember it, but that's just me of course. 

Patience isn't everyone's virtue and everyone's RP is different. 

 

7 minutes ago, Kat said:

But since your character never really dies, unless you decide to perma, there was always the possibility of interacting again at some point.  Putting the new rule in allows for continuation of a hostile relationship.  Now, this is not to say that the "victim" should show up the next day like nothing happened.  The intent seems to have been to allow the shot character the time to heal from his catastrophic wound and build some hate and animosity toward those who shot him.  Whether people are playing that way or not, is an entirely different topic.

So group A and group B can just keep continually capturing, torturing and executing each other without consequence or resolve? Rules are put in place because someone at some point and time did the opposite, if there isn't a guideline or rule stating what someone remembers, when they remember it or even if they remember it at all then it will be abused. 

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7 minutes ago, Jared said:

Patience isn't everyone's virtue and everyone's RP is different. 

 

So group A and group B can just keep continually capturing, torturing and executing each other without consequence or resolve? Rules are put in place because someone at some point and time did the opposite, if there isn't a guideline or rule stating what someone remembers, when they remember it or even if they remember it at all then it will be abused. 

Its a flawed rule that I think paired with some form of permadeath would be awesome

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Kat    101
3 minutes ago, Jared said:

So group A and group B can just keep continually capturing, torturing and executing each other without consequence or resolve? Rules are put in place because someone at some point and time did the opposite, if there isn't a guideline or rule stating what someone remembers, when they remember it or even if they remember it at all then it will be abused. 

Rules are put in place and abused all the time.  It is up to the players involved to make it realistic.  If shooting someone in the face doesn't actually kill them, then why the hell not remember it and let a deep seeded anger and resentment grow?  Let's get this "mature community" to play this game in a "mature" way.  Don't look for ways around rules or give others ideas on how to circumvent them.  Take the parameters given and structure your role play accordingly.  Remembering getting shot will go a heck of a lot further in developing hostilities amongst groups and furthering the possibility for some pretty cool story lines than forgetting the jack wagon who put a cap in your ass.

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Species    237
22 minutes ago, Kat said:

But since your character never really dies, unless you decide to perma, there was always the possibility of interacting again at some point.  Putting the new rule in allows for continuation of a hostile relationship.  Now, this is not to say that the "victim" should show up the next day like nothing happened.  The intent seems to have been to allow the shot character the time to heal from his catastrophic wound and build some hate and animosity toward those who shot him.  Whether people are playing that way or not, is an entirely different topic.

The only issue with this "time to heal" scenario is people just hop on an ult, same person and attitude, till their actual character has "healed." People are to built on being the winner they don't think about continuation of story, it just becomes a pride measuring contest.

Its flawed and as @Rampage and @Cow suggested it needs a permadeath rule to accompany it.

Edited by Species
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Kat    101
Just now, Species said:

The only issue with this "time to heal" scenario is people just hop on an ult, same person and attitude, till their actual character has "healed." People are to built on being the winner they don't think about continuation of story, it just becomes a pride measuring contest.

Its flawed and as @Rampage and @Cow suggested it needs a permad watch rule to accompany it.

I agree.  I'm just responding to the issue posed about why the rule exists.  In theory it is an excellent idea, in practice, not so much.  But in regard to the permadeath issue, there were very strong opinions on that topic and it didn't go far.  Do I think it should be a consequence of certain situations, absolutely!

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Jared    9
1 minute ago, Rampage said:

Its a flawed rule that I think paired with some form of permadeath would be awesome

Knowing that a character could be permed would drastically change how people play in this community. There is no fear of death, only fear of reports. If I knew that if I keep running my mouth with a gun to my head that I would be killed off I might shut up, might. Why don't we playtest it? 

Could that bandit group you don't like finally be killed off? Did your favorite hero just fight his last fight? NOPE?! Why not? If doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is the definition of insanity, are we not all insane to expect anything different if things stay the same?

 

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Species    237
Just now, Kat said:

I agree.  I'm just responding to the issue posed about why the rule exists.  In theory it is an excellent idea, in practice, not so much.  But in regard to the permadeath issue, there were very strong opinions on that topic and it didn't go far.  Do I think it should be a consequence of certain situations, absolutely!

Agreed like most discussions it kind of does out, probably like this one will. The time to heal scenario would be great, but as you said in practice it does not happen. "Maturity" will never really be achieved because of people's mentality around the game. But, if there was something that was added that said, "Hey you've 'died' 6-7 times now by the same group, you have to permadeath now."

Of course the count would only go up based on actual in the rules kills and not KoS/RDM scenarios.

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Jared    9
1 minute ago, Species said:

 

Of course the count would only go up based on actual in the rules kills and not KoS/RDM scenarios.

In all actuality it should. If you die to a horde, it should count. Catch a stray bullet, counts. Executed, counts. People will bitch, as that is human nature, but with adversity comes change and growth.

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1 minute ago, Jared said:

Knowing that a character could be permed would drastically change how people play in this community. There is no fear of death, only fear of reports. If I knew that if I keep running my mouth with a gun to my head that I would be killed off I might shut up, might. Why don't we playtest it? 

Could that bandit group you don't like finally be killed off? Did your favorite hero just fight his last fight? NOPE?! Why not? If doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is the definition of insanity, are we not all insane to expect anything different if things stay the same?

 

Preaching to the choir my friend.  It would be nice to experiment with this to see how it would work in game.  Might add a little spice to the game and actual bring fear in which you would have to carefully make decisions.  I know a good amount of staff agree with it, hence why @Cow made the suggestion, but people are afraid of change I guess. 

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Jared    9
5 minutes ago, Rampage said:

Preaching to the choir my friend.  It would be nice to experiment with this to see how it would work in game.  Might add a little spice to the game and actual bring fear in which you would have to carefully make decisions.  I know a good amount of staff agree with it, hence why @Cow made the suggestion, but people are afraid of change I guess. 

Sometime decisions need to be made for the greater good of all. 

 

Maybe the permadeath rule apply to members of groups and factions, that way natural order and progression can take effect. Making it one of only a few disadvantages of joining a group or settlement. Important people shouldn't be untouchable, doesn't matter what side of the hero spectrum you play. Groups can rise and fall just a naturally as settlements, and should be treated as so. 

Edited by Jared

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Just now, Jared said:

Sometime decisions need to be made for the greater good of all. 

 

Maybe the permadeath rule apply to members of groups and factions, that way natural order and progression can take effect. Making it one of only a few disadvantages of joining a group or settlement. Important people shouldn't be untouchable, doesn't matter what side of the hero spectrum you play.

How it was supposed to work is this.  Let's say you and I rob, kidnapp, torture and kill each other a bunch of times.  This would be considered built up longstanding hostilities in which next time one of use died to the other would result in a permadeath.   However if you performed those actions on me and I did nothing in return then I would only gain execution/permadeath rights on you.    I think it was suggest to put a number on it.   So lets say the number was 5.  each of us would have to do 5 hostile actions on one another to gain Perm rights.  Something like that.  Im sure details can be ironed out. 

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Jared    9
2 minutes ago, Rampage said:

How it was supposed to work is this.  Let's say you and I rob, kidnapp, torture and kill each other a bunch of times.  This would be considered built up longstanding hostilities in which next time one of use died to the other would result in a permadeath.   However if you performed those actions on me and I did nothing in return then I would only gain execution/permadeath rights on you.    I think it was suggest to put a number on it.   So lets say the number was 5.  each of us would have to do 5 hostile actions on one another to gain Perm rights.  Something like that.  Im sure details can be ironed out. 

I think maybe 5 deaths in total not 5 for each individual scenario and not like it's impossible to track. That gives plenty of reasonable miracles for which you can survive and continue but just enough to be more careful if you hope to draw your story out more. The system should be unforgiving but fair and logs are constantly checked anyway. 

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I don't think this rule will never be perfected with no grey areas. Here is a my opinions on quotes from your OP:

This prevented ongoing hostilities of "You shot me, I remembered because I didn't die"

The old rule did indeed make it more difficult for people to seek revenge because of the unlogic reason of them not remembering the event, which is an easy way out but not optimal if we value roleplay over rules. I have always believed that people wish to be able to seek revenge and such after a hostile situation because they get a thrill of having someone who tries to hunt them down. The only people the old rule favoured were those who wished to do hostile roleplay and rob without having to deal any consequences unless they choose to. By choose to I am talking about the ongoing ignoring of this part of the rule that almost everyone did in order to continue roleplaying with each other. I believe that if people knew that both parties would remember everything they did to each other, they would be more careful about their lives and also getting into pointless fights.

The only questionable thing that used to happen is that individuals whom you executed conveniently came back but with no knowledge. Now you just remember everything? How does that work? 

This is where it gets difficult, which isn't the currents NLR's fault. The fact that people execute each other without the victim perming is just as stupid under this rule as the old one. I have always been a supporter for people to perma their characters more easily instead of letting them live trough numerous executions and gunfights. However, people have over and over argument against and sadly all we can do as of now is encourage them to perma more often or come up with a better idea. People always complain much more in the discussion than they do when the rules are actually put into practice. The NLR being a good example as yours are the first thread I have seen questioning it, compared to the old one that was constantly trashed. I also don't believe people should execute someone without knowing the victim will perma. It is just a quick way to end RP. Sure it would be realistic for your character to just finish the person off, but if you know that they won't perma, why expose both parties to the awkwardness that comes with?

Doesn't that just give people even more reasons to be super hostile and give more execution rights? I have heard on multiple occasions in game of scenarios including one where someone got shot in the chest in front of everyone and days later he just strolls in the camp with full knowledge and starts beef with the people who did it. HOW IS THIS A THING? 

No. You would still have to gain KOS rights the same way as you had to before. Just now you actually have a good reason to try and gain them instead of before when you just had to walk into their camp like an idiot, having no knowledge that he is surrounded by people who killed him, and OOC beg they will start shit.

 

PS: Not sure why it quotes you at the top...

 

Edited by Sofie

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