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Mass04

Interpreting hostility as initiation?

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Mass04    4

Forgive me if this is way too long, I'm not an avid poster on these forums.


So, my small group got into a situation last night where the resident bandits had qualms with us and made a lot of angry, hostile remarks towards us that ended up making us leave the area.
After we had left, it turned out their much larger group had started following us quite a ways out of the area and when my group picked up speed, so did theirs. It ended up with them chasing my group nearly 2km north and when a straggling group member got caught, they were captured and stripped of weapons. We attribute his survival to being the newest member of the group and seeming unaffiliated to us because of their lack of knowledge.


So I began thinking on this subject and a few thoughts crossed my mind. Thinking about rules 5.3 and 6.1, maybe 7.1 too? 
5 or 6 guys being chased by 10+ after the 10+ had acted in a threatening manner without actually initiating.
In a situation like that, you've got two options: Turn and shoot or keep running.
But because there was no initiation, the smaller group would have to turn, raise their guns and wait for the larger group to catch up so they could say "Stop following us or we'll shoot." Which gives up the advantage of distance and with the larger group being that close, outnumbering and outgunning the smaller group, it could be considered NVFL if the small group chose to initiate.


So that leads me to my question/suggestion because I don't know if there has been any talk on this subject before:
When a large party acts threateningly to a smaller group and then begins stalking them with what the characters would assume to be intent to harm/rob/kidnap/etc., couldn't the smaller party interpret that as a hostile action and begin a firefight, using the distance and any cover they've ran to as an advantage equaliser?


Obviously I understand there's a bunch of stipulations to this like the size of the two parties, the distance between them, what a suitable place to begin the fight is like, if the stalking group can be considered hostile, the fact that there wasn't a solid initiation, etc. A ton of reasons to be wary of a thing like this but I thought it might provoke some thoughts from the community so I figured I would post it and see what people think.

TL;DR : Can a smaller group interpret a larger group's threats and stalking as a form of initiation?

 

Edit: Might've been better for me to have posted this in discussions since, after reading the current replies, I realised I was hoping more for people's personal opinions than facts about the rules. It also might be too early to say that but that's just what occurred to me a moment ago.

Edit2: Also now just realised that I put this in the suggestions thread because I already know that you can't interpret threatening behaviour and stalking as an initiation and this was a suggestion of an edit to the rules that could be discussed.

Edited by Mass04

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If they threaten your lives then sure.

You also might want to make sure that you take all rules into consideration. A smaller group not complying to a larger groups initiation could be seen as NVFL depending on both parties size.

Edit : You should never assume the intent of another group. Sure they might act in a threatening manner but that might be purely for wanting to seem intimidating. Assuming a groups intentions can land you in a rather deep hole.

Edited by Bran

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William    398

If they directly threaten you with a consequence (death), then by all means go for it, but make sure it's not NVFL. 

However in these situations you need to be sure to state the difference between good hostile RP and a blatant threat. If someone goes up and calls you mean names, you obviously cant gat him right then and there. You should make sure to try your best to RP it out.  

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Skinner    440

No. No. Absolutely not. No. You can't interpret people speaking meanly to you or chasing you as an initiation. You can't even interpret them pointing a gun at you as an initiation. You can only "start a firefight" if they make a clear and explicit threat with clear consequences. For example, if they are chasing you and say "Stop or my boys will light you up!" or they point their rifles at you and say "Stop right now motherfucker!" with the obvious implication that they'll shoot if you don't stop.

TL;DR: No you can't just start shooting at people because they were speaking rudely and chasing you, they need to offer a valid initiation for you to gain KOS rights.

Edited by TheMatt924

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Only way you get KoS is from an initiation, following someone for a long period of time is not an initiation. The group would have to threaten your lives in order for KoS to be granted. 

EG;

'Stop running or you will all be shot' 

That would grant you KoS rights.

Chasing does not grant you KoS rights regardless of your group size. 

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13 minutes ago, TheMatt924 said:

No you can't just start shooting at people because they were speaking rudely and chasing you, they need to offer a valid initiation for you to gain KOS rights.

Except in the case of you telling them to stop following you multiple times, and they fail to heed the warnings. It can grant KOS rights after some time.

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   81

This is one of those cases where RL common sense has to take a back seat to game rules. Logically yes, if you're being pursued by a group that's been harassing and subtly (just enough to avoid meeting hostility standards) threatening you, if WOULD make perfect sense to shoot. However, there is no way to quantify "threatening" in the rules, hence why strong arming is still allowed. If you enable someone to shoot at you just because they feel threatened, this entire server would instantly devolve into the same state as pubs.

35 minutes ago, TheMatt924 said:

No. No. Absolutely not. No. You can't interpret people speaking meanly to you or chasing you as an initiation. You can't even interpret them pointing a gun at you as an initiation. You can only "start a firefight" if they make a clear and explicit threat with clear consequences. For example, if they are chasing you and say "Stop or my boys will light you up!" or they point their rifles at you and say "Stop right now motherfucker!" with the obvious implication that they'll shoot if you don't stop.

TL;DR: No you can't just start shooting at people because they were speaking rudely and chasing you, they need to offer a valid initiation for you to gain KOS rights.

He posted asking people's opinions on a possible rule change. Everyone here is already aware of how the current rules work.

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Mass04    4
36 minutes ago, Bran said:

You should never assume the intent of another group. Sure they might act in a threatening manner but that might be purely for wanting to seem intimidating. Assuming a groups intentions can land you in a rather deep hole.

Since I don't think people are notified of edits, I figured I would point out that I realised I posted this as a suggestion because I know it's not currently possible and wanted to see people's opinions on it as opposed to being told it's not currently possible.

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Mass04    4
7 minutes ago, FiftyFootAnt said:

This is one of those cases where RL common sense has to take a back seat to game rules. Logically yes, if you're being pursued by a group that's been harassing and subtly (just enough to avoid meeting hostility standards) threatening you, if WOULD make perfect sense to shoot.

Yeah, that's why I brought up rule 5.3, since I felt that bringing up ` "Rule play" is prioritizing rules and OOC information above more appropriate IC actions or behavior. Always prioritize role play over rule play. " ` was a way of alluding to people responding to hostility and potential endangerment with fight or flight in reality, making it a feasibly realistic action to pursue in-game.

13 minutes ago, FiftyFootAnt said:

 However, there is no way to quantify "threatening" in the rules, hence why strong arming is still allowed. If you enable someone to shoot at you just because they feel threatened, this entire server would instantly devolve into the same state as pubs.

I did mention that there are many caveats to this and I would really like to see people discussing those stipulations. Thanks for the input.

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3 hours ago, Mass04 said:

Since I don't think people are notified of edits, I figured I would point out that I realised I posted this as a suggestion because I know it's not currently possible and wanted to see people's opinions on it as opposed to being told it's not currently possible.

Ah okay, I was just answering how I saw it in the TL:DR.

Personally I would still see it as a problem as like I said before, you don't know what their intentions are.

If you know what their intentions are then you could possibly work your way around the chase by organizing something on comms such as an ambush, losing them in a town ect.

 

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Mass04    4
22 hours ago, Bran said:

If you know what their intentions are then you could possibly work your way around the chase by organizing something on comms such as an ambush, losing them in a town ect.

 

That was part of my original thoughts on the suggestion. Thinking about it, warning shots could be an idea, firing a few rounds at the ground / cover near the approaching enemies as a signal of your intent or a new form of initiation. 'Course, it'd need to be a few rounds and/or close to the approaching enemies to get the message across. Your thoughts? 

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