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1 Hostility Per Execution?

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Basically this happened today. The group that performed it was within the rules so this isn't an attempt to throw anything towards them just a general question as to why this seems like it's a good idea. 

  • 8.2 A character that is taken hostage may only be executed once for a hostile incident that happened in the past where the character was responsible for, or participated in the incident.

 

How in any way shape or form does this further RP? The old execution rule was perfectly fine, allowing groups and characters to build hatred among eachother after a span of hostile encounters. Grudges were able to be built and quite frankly executions were meaningful and well performed, as they damn well should be. 

With this current rule it seems that there's really no point to executions. It's now just an everyday occurrence instead of this big moment in development spanned by numerous encounters and a growing hatred. Is this rule actually saying that if I get initiated on I get to go find the person, take them, and then execute them after 1 encounter with them? There's no fun in that. Executions are just going to become a poorly portrayed and thought out excuse to kill someone because well... The rules allow it. What is even the point of KOS rights anymore when I can just go find someone a month later and kill them for what they did? Quite frankly I see this as utter crap. This doesn't further RP, it diminishes it. 

Executions shouldn't be a "because I can" scenario. These moments are pillars of peoples character development. The choice you make of whether to or to not pull a trigger on a man tied up in front of you can mold your character for the rest of its life. Now its just a scummy excuse to get back at someone because they took your shit. 

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Keione    49

Agreed. It's bad enough people will take you hostage and leave you with absolutely nothing because there is a town nearby, would rather them do that though than just end me because of an incident they don't even know if I was a part of.

 

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In my eyes, execution rights should vanish as they do literally nothing. I already brought my concerns with the rules within staff so maybe there will be a change soon.

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Kanye    14

Agree with OP, the rights shouldn't be so easy to get, but they are necessary in many story arcs. Some people just need to get ended.

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This shouldn't be a thing at all for a lot of reasons.

Sure, sometimes there are extremely serious hostile incident that could potentially call for rights; however, there are also some real petty ones that don't. For example, with this rule people can get execution rights on them if they initiate on someone who's baiting, avoiding rp, etc. It makes literally no sense to include this rule and does nothing but hinder potential role play. It's clear that some people are also willing to exploit this rule to their advantage even when a situation doesn't call for an execution.

I'm really not sure what the thought process was when this rule was implemented since it's barely expanded on and there are endless possible exploits.

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54 minutes ago, Andrey said:

In my eyes, execution rights should vanish as they do literally nothing. I already brought my concerns with the rules within staff so maybe there will be a change soon.

I like the execution rights. Having a guideline for something as big as killing a character (sometimes permanently) should not be a goal that is easy to achieve. However I agree that the rule should be change. Curious on other peoples thoughts... Perhaps move this to gen discussion?

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Just now, Riggsee said:

I like the execution rights. Having a guideline for something as big as killing a character (sometimes permanently) should not be a goal that is easy to achieve. However I agree that the rule should be change. Curious on other peoples thoughts... Perhaps move this to gen discussion?

 

The thing with execution rights is that they are pretty redundant. You get execution rights on a guy, you kill the guy and then next day he is back. They don't achieve anything regardless of the amount of hostile actions you need.

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Eagle    346

If there was no such rule then people would end every single hostage situation in an execution because they can, the rule needs an overhaul or major changes to how the rule functions.

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NishiUrban    79

 The rules are truly mind baffling sometimes. So, if I initiate, rob, or commit some sort of hostile action against someone they can then find me who knows how long after the fact and execute me? And I can do the same against anyone who's done the same to me? That's pretty, vague. How hostile of an incident are we talking about? What's the bare minimum to gain a free execution right on someone? And what exactly needs to be done to meet the requirements of an 'execution'? Do I have to do some big rp things revolving around it? Or are we going to have people just put a bullet in someone's head, since technically they did it execution style?

 

 So am I to believe that I can't use my KoS rights whenever I want, because I run the risk of getting slapped with ruleplay > roleplay. But if I want I can use these nifty new execution rights just because I can? Or will I still run the risk of being slapped with ruleplay for following the rules? If I'm still going to run the risk of being banned, the rule seems flawed right out the gate. What's the point of making more rules that will get people banned if they actually use / follow them?

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Charlie    118

Yea I don't agree with this rule, this will shorten RP. Even though I guess you can just RP out that you some how survive. But in my eyes that's bad RP. Since it's going to repeat repeat repeat executions. 

I prefer to keep my victims alive to provide a story for them. Something to follow and work for. I hate killing a hostage "just because you can" you should only kill if the RP calls for it. 

In most of my characters stories he's lost body parts, became friends with people he's robbed or hurt. Or eventually just stay away from each other and prepare for the next possible encounter. Even sometimes results in a perma death. 

The rule would be fine if people wouldn't go "we have execution rights let's kill him" then no matter what that hostage says he will be killed. Just because the other guys can.

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NishiUrban    79

Actually, on second thought this makes perfect roleplay > ruleplay sense.

 

 So when I execute, or get executed, and the executed party is found again by the people who just murdered him like...yesterday. And he's perfectly fine. Then clearly whoever I execute for his hostile action, wasn't him or he would be dead. So then logically, I must have killed the wrong person if he is still alive, meaning I would still ICly have execution rights on him. I'll be sure to execute him right then and there, because that makes IC and roleplay sense. After all, if I don't execute him despite him somehow being alive after being murdered by me, that would be me taking the OOC rules into account and thus, would be ruleplay > roleplay.

 

 Do I got that right? Or would executing him at all, be ruleplay > roleplay, since it's an OOC rule? Cause I'm a bit confused.

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Castiel    1124

I mean, if some edgy group takes me and tortures me once why wouldn't I execute them the first chance I got? Whereas if I get initiated on and then it's a misunderstanding of course I won't hunt them down to end them.

It's really just about knowing when you should and shouldn't, when it makes sense and when it does not. Sometimes 1 hostile encounter does enough for me to want to execute them, sometimes it may take 2/3/4 etc. Depends on the severity of the situation. There would be no problem if you thought about the situation as your character and not as someone reading the rules of an online roleplaying community.

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Skinner    440

I agree with @Riggsee, this rule is in dire need of a change. I understand why some folks here are claiming it is needed, but allow me to point out how easy it will be to exploit and the consequences this will have on the RP and reports.

Let's say I play Bandit Bob:  

I rob people and ask for permission to cut their fingers off 2 minutes after I initiate. My RP is dank, or at least that's what I tell myself. Now after a week or so of robbing a dozen or so people, I find myself getting initiated on, I'm outnumbered and outgunned, but I raise my weapon and kill two before I get dropped. I get reported for NVFL but I argue to  staff that IC I knew that one of the hostage takers was one of the dudes I robbed last week and I remember them saying how they were going to kill me if they ever saw me again. OOC I knew they we going to execute me as well, since they had execution rights, so both IC and OOC my only hope to survive was to pull out my gat and try to sprint around like a chicken with my head cut off and see if I could kill them all. It almost worked! Please close report.

What is staff going to say then? Are they going to find  Bandit Bob guilty of  NVFL even though the rules and the RP both basically ensure that he was going to be killed if he complied and his only chance of survival was to try to shoot his way out?? How does this rule promote RP??

Edit: Don't even get me started on the disasterous effect this will have on the new permadeath rule being proposed. This rule change + Forced Pemadeath after set number of valid executions = an absolute disaster.

Edited by TheMatt924

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I guess making sense isn't a thing anymore, if I get taken by someone, they take my shit, hurt me, whatever...they are going to die. There are already enough ways to not die due to the rules. If you don't want repercussions after hurting or stealing from someone then change your playstyle.

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Castiel    1124
8 minutes ago, Billy said:

I guess making sense isn't a thing anymore, if I get taken by someone, they take my shit, hurt me, whatever...they are going to die. There are already enough ways to not die due to the rules. If you don't want repercussions after hurting or stealing from someone then change your playstyle.

Mhm mhm. Don't want to be held accountable for your actions? Don't want there to be consequences? Don't want the people you rob, hurt, humiliate and kill to be upset and angry with you? Do something different.

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   81

It kinda depends on the hostile situation. For example, Group A initiates on me, questions me for a bit, then realizes I'm not the person they're looking for and they tell me to get lost. Next day, Group B realizes I'm in tight with a group they are at war with; they initiate, gun down my best friend when he tries to run, then drag me to a secluded barn and torture me for an extended period of time, culminating with forcing me at gunpoint to cut one of my own fingers off with a rusty hacksaw.

Both of these are classified as "hostile situations", yet IMO one of these would in fact definitely merit a revenge execution, and one merits absolutely nothing other than general wariness of the group in the future. If this rule is going to seriously stick around, staff is going to have to stay on top of Ruleplay-over-Roleplay reports to limit salt executions.

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8 hours ago, Riggsee said:

I like the execution rights. Having a guideline for something as big as killing a character (sometimes permanently) should not be a goal that is easy to achieve. 

3

Let's be honest, roleplayers never die they're just missing in action.

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Keione    49
11 minutes ago, Castiel said:

Mhm mhm. Don't want to be held accountable for your actions? Don't want there to be consequences? Don't want the people you rob, hurt, humiliate and kill to be upset and angry with you? Do something different.

 

2 hours ago, Castiel said:

There would be no problem if you thought about the situation as your character and not as someone reading the rules of an online roleplaying community.

There is a line you have to tiptoe around between remembering this is a roleplay community and being completely immersed as your character.

If someone robs me in an apocalypse IRL, I'm waiting for the perfect moment and killing them. I'm not going into this hostage situation and giving him some speech before I do it - I'm shooting him straight up. But in this Roleplaying community, that's considered Ruleplay over Roleplay, and I'd be exercising my KOS rights wrongfully. 

There are too many situations where I could be wrongfully accused and someone ends my life and I have to spawn back on the Coast. It's not about the gear, it's the fact that I'd continuously have to make that long walk because someone wrongfully executed me, which I'm afraid will become more common with this rule. 

Besides, killing a hostage ends the RP right there. What about making them crawl back to town because you broke their knees, and running into them again and noticing their left eye is covered because you took it out? I dunno, I just think it's a scapegoat to gat people and get away from hostage RP for some people.

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5 hours ago, Castiel said:

Mhm mhm. Don't want to be held accountable for your actions? Don't want there to be consequences? Don't want the people you rob, hurt, humiliate and kill to be upset and angry with you? Do something different.

Are you not understanding the points people are making in this thread? Sure, no one is really debating it if you have literally scarred someone, but the more borderline causes need to be addressed.

 

It would be great if the admins came in and actually gave us more examples on how this new rules works and any/all exceptions it has, since the staff I've talked to seem to be confused on the details of it. A few scenarios that I could quickly come up with:

- Is there a level of severity required for the rights to be gained? Or can you just execute anyone who possibly made a mistake and initiated on the wrong person?

- Does someone get execution rights on you if they baited you into an initiation?

- What if they were avoiding rp and sprinting away, so you initiate and they don't comply.  Still gained?

- How large of a part does someone have to play in the hostile incident to get executed?

- Can everyone in the group execute these people or just the characters who were directly influenced?

I'm sure there are many more, but those are the one's I could think of quickly. We need to realize that this is literally going to destroy any hostile rp if it isn't reverted to how it used to be or further clarified. It's already been clear from the comments above that people are going to hastily execute people merely because they can without any thoughts of rp. If that was the purpose of the rule, then I guess ignore me.

Edited by Bruce

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Elmo    920
4 minutes ago, Bruce said:

It's already been clear from the comments above that people are going to hastily execute people merely because they can without any thoughts of rp. If that was the purpose of the rule, then I guess ignore me.

Isn't rushing an execution considered BadRP? I'm fairly certain I was told that before by a staff member (can't remember who, maybe they'll have better recollection) that rushing executions is BadRP.

If they break that rule, report them.

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Just now, Elmo said:

Isn't rushing an execution considered BadRP? I'm fairly certain I was told that before by a staff member (can't remember who, maybe they'll have better recollection) that rushing executions is BadRP.

If they break that rule, report them.

It can be, but what is considered rushing it? With the old execution rights it was at least kinda outlined, but this isn't. That's the problem.

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Elmo    920
Just now, Bruce said:

It can be, but what is considered rushing it? With the old execution rights it was at least kinda outlined, but this isn't. That's the problem.

To me it seems pretty self-explanatory what "rushed" means, in this context. 

You've brought up some good points though, I'll have to think about them. Never really saw it from that perspective before.

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Dustup    118

correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you previously need several incidents where a person or group took you hostage and robbed/hurt you before you gained execution rights as well as evidence of all those situations?

I can see how this could be abused with only one incident having had to occur in the past, e.g. I could just hang around the triangle on my own in decent gear (which doesn't take that long to replace)  "chumming the waters" so that I keep getting robbed, then after a week or so, go in a group or get a group to find and capture those people and start executing them one by one and then claim, "but they robbed/scarred me so I was using my validly gained execution rights."  I think that the 2 hour KOS is sufficient for one or two incidents by the same people, and yes there are people who will simply log after the 30 mins, thereby denying the hostage 1 1/2 hours of being able to find and kill them, but it still doesn't justify being able to execute someone because of a single incident.

I think that once you get to a point where you have been taken 3 or more times by the same person/people then I completely understand being able to use execution rights if you manage to capture them (although if you are in the same area and know that they hang around there, wtf are you doing back there in the first place other than looking to get robbed/killed), but a single incident is going to potentially cause a lot of unnecessary problems.

This rule could definitely use a slight rewording or some more clarity (or was this intentionally made to "discourage" banditry?).

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NishiUrban    79

 People claiming they personally wouldn't hunt someone down and execute them for the slightest transgression against their character, cool. However in a large community am I to believe others wouldn't? 

 

 My major concern with creating a new, ambiguous rule like this. Is that people will be banned for using this supposed execution right. If staff can't even agree on existing rules like KoS, and when it's apparently acceptable to utilize those rights. You'll have to forgive me if I don't have high confidence that there will be consistent rulings when it comes to when someone using these execution rights has done so 'legitimately'. 

 

 I play both hostile and friendly characters, so yes I might end up robbing someone and having them try and use these rights against me. That's not my primary concern however, it's not a matter of me not wanting to take 'responsibility for my actions'. So much as me not wanting to be banned for ruleplay, if someone happens to wrong me IG and I decide to use these apparent rights I gained.

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Para    193

IMO valid execution rights should be very hard to get, have to be earned with clear evidence, and should lead to a permadeath whether the hostage likes it or not. If you're caught after being hostile in game multiple times you would not survive at all, regardless of how many of you want to keep your characters. 

That way execution actually means something in game because right now, it means absolutely nothing other than that you have to spend an extra 30 mins running back from the coast to a place where you can grab gear again. 

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