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When can we use our KOS rights.

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So I read this report.   

Now this community member got banned for killing someone he had KOS rights against.  

5c8ff6015b.png

 

So my question is why was he banned for using KOS rights?  Accused was in an active firefight, the hostage ran away, looted up for a bit and came back during said firefight and confronted KillerWelden.  

In the verdict it was stated that he wasn't armed.  Well he had a melee and you have to ask the question, what if he had a hidden pistol?  The accused has no way of knowing what weapon he found in the amount of time he was gone.  Its is also very possible for him to have met up with a group member and be given a pistol.  KillerWelden does not have to retake him hostage or tell him to leave.  The OP obviously had radio contact after he was let go and knew of the situation.  If OP didn't want to die, he should never have come back to that area.  Since when is this rule play and how can Killerwelden know what he has or what he does not have.  Its quite easy to pull a pistol or a melee and attack or even distract while his friend gats him.  

I would like to understand and have a better explanation on why using your KOS rights is rule play in this situation.  Thanks

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I'm always ready to spray whenever a hostage comes back and confronts me. I usually kill them first if I told them not to come back. I try to keep my finger on the right MB lol. But I would have done the same thing as welden. Guess I would be at 26 points too. Lol

Edited by Diamond

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I would've killed him too. I mean you have KoS rights, YOU HAVE THEM. Why punish someone for doing something that's within the rules? I think these verdicts will confuse the shit out of new members. If he didn't want to die, he shouldn't have come back into that area. I mean if got taken hostage, I'd GTFO out of there and run until I was out of breath, the only reason he came back is rule armor.

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17 minutes ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

I would've killed him too. I mean you have KoS rights, YOU HAVE THEM. Why punish someone for doing something that's within the rules? 

  • 7.4 Remember that kill rights are still subject to rule 5.2. You shouldn't use kill rights in situations where it doesn't make in-character sense as it can be seen as rule play. In other words, obtaining kill rights alone does not give you explicit permission to use them. Think about if using kill rights is viable in the current situation.

I don't exactly agree with it, the guy came back after looting, his friend shot at Weldens friends, it's valid in my eyes. I wasn't there for the discussion of the report so maybe I'm missing something.

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NishiUrban    79

 Clearly KOS rights are part of the rules. So if you follow the rules while playing IG, it is obviously ruleplay. AKA, rules while playing. ;)

 

 No but seriously, shits broken. I just mentioned something about this very topic the other day. If the staff member writing the verdict acknowledges that the accused has KOS rights, guess what? Seems pretty open shut to me. Why complicate the verdict with personal opinions, and should have could haves? If you want to argue all the things that the accused could have done differently in this event, what about the OP? Why is all the responsibility pushed onto the accused? Can't you equally throw a bunch of things that the OP could have done differently in there as well. Like, idk, not going back into an active firefight that his friend was involved in?

 

 "Hey I just got robbed or etc by this dude, and my friend or friends have gotten themselves into a firefight with the individuals that took me captive, that is still ongoing. They killed one of my former aggressor's friends, and dude most likely has KoS rights against me for it. I know! I'll head on back in there, what could possibly go wrong?"

 If the OP had killed the accused, and the accused had thrown up a report against the op. Would staff have hit the OP with ruleplay for using HIS kos rights? Because if that's the case, then I guess KoS rights shouldn't even be a thing, since apparently no matter how you use them, you get hit with ruleplay since they are part of the rules. But if that's not the case, and Staff would have been fine with the OP using his KoS rights, I would like further clarification as to why that is an acceptable form of usage.

 

 After all. Next time someone holds me up, steals all my stuff, perma scars me, kills and eats my pet dog in front of me. And then lets me go, and I kill them. I would like to be sure I'm not going to get banned for it. K thanks.

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See I remember back when ruleplay just one simple situation. Basically you're after someone, you see somebody and initiate, you realize it's not who you want and you let them go free without taking everything. They come back and kill you, that's what ruleplay was.

But now it comes into so many different situations, most of which just become more complicated than they need to be. Most of the time it's just "You could have RP'd more", which I can understand, but some situations call for a kill, but gets deemed as ruleplay.

it's almost as if no RP can come from PvP. Weird.

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Rule armor. nuf said.

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Look. If I take someone hostage because I think he's part of a group or someone I know is hostile to me, interrogate him and then let him go with all his gear, telling him I'm sorry I thought he was someone else, then the guy comes back and kills me, THAT sounds like a situation where kill rights shouldn't be used. This is not one. This is just an interpretation that got skewed one way but could've just as easily been skewed the other way. Personally I see that the guy who came back could be accused of NVFL. I mean, he came right back to where he just got taken hostage, think about it for a second. You just got out of a really bad situation and managed to make it out alive, why the fuck would you go back?. The LEAST he should've done is stay hidden and wait for them to clear the area before going back. There was no way for the guy who shot him to know if he wasn't maybe coming back to get revenge kill with a hidden pistol or a melee weapon.

Edited by SomeWeirdAssGuy

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Weird... I thought during an active firefight you could kill whoever the fuck you wanted with worry of a ban, guess not. Things changing all the time.

To my knowledge KoS rights could used in any situation as long as they are properly obtained. The matter of using said KoS rights is the shooters choice on whether he/she deems them to be necessary. Using KoS rights also depends on the situation; Are you alone?, Are there a lot you?, Does killing this person make a difference in your roleplay?, Is there a chance this roleplay can progress?, etc.

The fact of the matter is, this situation took place in an active firefight, meaning kill or be killed. Not, I was taken hostage and then was killed during an active firefight, ruleplay. We might as well give everyone points for killing people they are having a firefight with, because "ruleplay", right?

His KoS rights were fairly obtained and he used them in a situation that deemed them necessary. I see nothing wrong it. I say he did what he was supposed to do, defend his friends and eliminate all enemies.

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Damn, people will try to get you banned for anything. He was told to leave twice and one of welden's friends died, but the OP of the report still decides to come back? Anyone in their right mind would have shot him. Makes more RP sense to kill him than to have to warn him again.

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Keione    50

More so my issue with the verdict is that it's apparent the OP and his allies were communicating via means outside of DayZ VOIP, so how can Staff hit someone with a Ruleplay Punishment and say " However, the OP took no part in the firefight, was not armed, and was only complying with the final demand that was given to him. You did have KOS rights, but you should not have used them in this situation. You could have told the hostage to leave as it was an active firefight, taken him hostage once more, or just left the OP alone and went after his friend. It is for this reason that you will be receiving a punishment for ruleplay. " without knowing if it was planned or not.

Like, sure give him Ruleplay if the guy was actually trying to Roleplay instead of feeding information and metagaming, but that's not the case. OP and his party wanted to finish off their robbers, hence the metagaming, and it's impossible to know if he came back with a concealed pistol. Weren't there dead bodies?

I don't see it as Ruleplay at all. His life was in danger so he protected himself. 

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The issue I have is in the verdict.

you state that you killed the OP for not complying to demands. As we can see in the video, the OP did comply with the final demand given to him. He was told to run to Kab naked, and that he could return once he did that.

Yes they did tell him to return, but they were not betting on a firefight to break out.  Plus they told him not to come back for at least 10 minutes and hostage showed up before hand.  The hostage takers were going to leave the area, however were forced into a gun battle. 

The hostage demands (don't shoot or the hostage dies) are no longer valid at this point as the OP was no longer your hostage. When the hostage was let go, his ally did shoot and kill Batok, which would grant you KOS rights on the OP. However, the OP took no part in the firefight, was not armed, and was only complying with the final demand that was given to him.

KOS were granted the moment his ally shot and killed Batok.  The hostage was in radio contact with friends.  There was a firefight and he returned.  He was armed with an axe and the key here is looking at the situation from both sides.  Here are the facts. 

Hostage was without clothing.  Hostage came back with clothing, raincoat to be exact.  Raincoat holds 4 slots and can hold a pistol.  There was plenty of time for ally of hostage to slip him a pistol.  It is unfair to expect hostage takers to know his intention.  Think about it, if you have a hostage and a firefight breaks out and person you have KOS rights on, who also has KOS rights on you comes back to the area of said firefight, how can the hostage taker know intention.  

Also how does the hostage have a radio as soon as he leaves?  Shouldn't he at least emote finding a radio before talking to friends?  

Also the OP knew a firefight was breaking out in that area as his friend shot them.  Why would he go back?  How would the hostage takers know his intent?  The hostage takers were leaving when they took shots.  

You did have KOS rights, but you should not have used them in this situation. You could have told the hostage to leave as it was an active firefight, taken him hostage once more, or just left the OP alone and went after his friend. It is for this reason that you will be receiving a punishment for ruleplay.

Yes, Weldon had KOS rights.  He used them legit.  When you are in a firefight and a hostage returns how is he supposed to know what his intentions are?  Is he going to stall them so his friends get a shot.  IS he relaying information? Does he have a weapon hidden in his jacket? Will he bust out his axe and kill someone?  Weldon valued his life by eliminating a threat.  It is unreasonable expectations for someone to read someones else mind on what they are going to do.  Plenty of times a hostage has returned and got a sidearm from a friend and joined firefight.  You cant ban someone for protecting themselves.  You cant expect them to take him hostage a second time.  

Lastly the OP got hit for badrp for not showing enough pain RP.  I have always had a problem with this rule.  It is impossible for a new person in the community to fully grasp how they are supposed to role play pain.  Its awkward in my opinion.  Instead of revoking his whitelist, maybe offer guidance and have a 2 minute chat with him or even write in verdict what he should do next time.  I think a verbal could have sufficed, especially if this was his first offense.  

Looking back at my first videos on dayzrp from 2013 I was horrid and novice at it.  I probably would react the same way.  Learning through teaching or surrounding yourself with good roleplayers helps improve. 

But given all the things I said, how can someone come to the conclusion that this is ruleplay, warranting Weldon a 5 day ban.  

So this is why I ask, when is it acceptable to use KOS rights?

Edited by Rampage

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Unknown Entity    126

Tbh the answer to this question should be very simple: If you have been granted KoS rights, use them whenever the fuck you want. Killing is part of the game, using valid KoS rights should not be punished.

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Rolle    2473

This is exactly why we have the rule 7.4 which specifically outlines that just because you have KoS rights doesn't mean it's ok to use them. We are primarily a RP server and as such kill rights should only be used when your or your friends lives are in danger. They should not be used solely because you have the OOC knowledge of kill rights - that's rule play. It must always make sense from IC perspective to kill someone and I guess in this case the GMs decided it did not make sense in that situation.

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Roach    1558

I agree with this. Sorry but damn this is going too far !

I am genuinely pissed off !

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Voodoo    371

So if KoS rights can only be used in certain situations which basically comes down to if its a firefight. I can now rob everyone i see without fear that i may be killed as long as i dont provoke the victim?

Should be fun seeing the spike in robberies now i guess. 

So if my group gain KoS in our settlement due to someone not following the settlement rules we can no longer kill because its ruleplay? Seems like a very gray area

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I disagree with the verdict as well. Plus one to Papa Roach. 

 

This is a "serious" roleplay community , we are supposed to invest into our characters and make them behave in a realistic manner to which you would if you were a part of the apocalypse.

In this scenario , the OP of the report was taken hostage by KillerWelden and co. They mutilate this fella "with his permission" and tell him to go away, not once but twice.

Yes he is told that he can return at a later time , the guy literally waits what? 5 or 6 minutes before going back? Now he has KOS rights on all those guys. His friend has KOS rights on all those guys and they are both at the scene of the robbery do to metagamed information. It seems unfair that KillerWelden was punished for RDM when the OP was told where to go and if he acted realistically to his character "Injured , mutilated , naked and cold" He wouldn't run right back to the place that this traumatic event just transpired.

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Grimnir    595

I am just sitting here wondering how the hostage showed value for his life by running back to the edgelord cannibals who tortured him for one hour...

I can see how this could be seen as ruleplay, but at the same time what did he expect? How does it make sense in any way shape or form to run back without it being badrp? 

 

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Unknown Entity    126

The thing is, using KoS rights, killing someone, can actually affect RP. It can lead up to personal character development (maybe it's the first time the character has killed, maybe it's the one time too many), it can lead to longterm group hostilities, it can affect the friends of the person who died.

Let's stop with the bullshit, killing someone is not the end of RP. If using KoS rights is an issue then KoS should simply be removed. Case by case doesn't matter, you get rights, you should be able to use them if you want to exploit those rights for RP. Not get slapped with "rule play".

1 hour ago, Grimnir said:

I am just sitting here wondering how the hostage showed value for his life by running back to the edgelord cannibals who tortured him for one hour...

I can see how this could be seen as ruleplay, but at the same time what did he expect? How does it make sense in any way shape or form to run back without it being badrp? 

 

 

That's normal! Rules protect him! Who cares about being tortured now tbh? Who actually RP's long term mental or physical damage? Very few. Running back up to hostile situations is normal, because you can't get shot.

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Well according to that situation you cant use your KOS rights as long as hes following at least one of your demands apparently it doesnt matter how many others he breaks as long as hes following one. In what world would a hostage return and just stand next to his captures after they had just tortured him and threatened to kill him if he came back? That is retarded classic abuse of the rules to give himself protection there is no valid reason why you would ever go back to those people whilst unarmed especially after your friend has just killed one of them.

The only Ruleplay was from the guy thinking he was protected by the rules.

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Roach    1558
5 hours ago, Rolle said:

This is exactly why we have the rule 7.4 which specifically outlines that just because you have KoS rights doesn't mean it's ok to use them. We are primarily a RP server and as such kill rights should only be used when your or your friends lives are in danger. They should not be used solely because you have the OOC knowledge of kill rights - that's rule play. It must always make sense from IC perspective to kill someone and I guess in this case the GMs decided it did not make sense in that situation.

 
 
 
 

I'm just gonna point out that it made sense that he used his KoS rights, heck I would've done the same and apparently many many many others. Just saying, this one, was not a justified ban. There are so many rules now, even I cannot comprehend all of them and clearly many in the staff contradict each other... it's become simply too confusing to even play anymore. All we can do is sit at a campfire and talk, cause anything else gets you reported or worse, banned. 

#SaveKillerwelden

 

FYI: I've had other friends that got banned before.
I never stood up cause I though all bans were justified, but not this time. So NO I am not bias!

Edited by Roach

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5 minutes ago, Roach said:

I'm just gonna point out that it made sense that he used his KoS rights, heck I would've done the same and apparently many many many others. Just saying, this one, was not a justified ban. There are so many rules now, even I cannot comprehend all of them and clearly many in the staff contradict each other... it's become simply too confusing to even play anymore. All we can do is sit at a campfire and talk, cause anything else gets you reported or worse, banned. 

#SaveKillerwelden

Plus one

Its almost as if people are convinced that no RP can come from PVP, and that killing anyone is a last resort. When I have KOS rights i will use them if me or one of my guys are at any risk from that person. Not only does it make sense from a roleplay position, but the way DayZ as a game is laggy and horrible means you literally can't take the chance in these situations.

I don't wanna be on the coast because I'm scared to use KOS rights that I validly have, just saying

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6 hours ago, Rolle said:

This is exactly why we have the rule 7.4 which specifically outlines that just because you have KoS rights doesn't mean it's ok to use them. We are primarily a RP server and as such kill rights should only be used when your or your friends lives are in danger. They should not be used solely because you have the OOC knowledge of kill rights - that's rule play. It must always make sense from IC perspective to kill someone and I guess in this case the GMs decided it did not make sense in that situation.

Ya but how do we know if that guy wasn't feeding him info on where we were at he was running around the field on where I died probably trying to find, my body or like I said give his friend info, the kill was legit that was not a good ban at all, like 100 percent, why run back knowing your friend is shooting???? To either A give info on locations, or B steal from the dead bodies, that situation was not ruleplay, honestly ruleplay makes zero sense, when we have to PLAY BY RULES. 

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   55

This seems that the rule 7.4 can be totally under the discretion of whoever is dealing with the report, because the rule is based on the judgement of actions. Instead of a rule such as NLR which has a black and white area, this rule is totally gray in my opinion. The accused should not of been punished with ruleplay, the OP knew what was going on around him and decided to tempt fate, why wasn't the OP hit with NVFL? An active firefight is not somewhere you should try and loot, since the OP went in actively knowing about the firefight, it is his fault entirely he died.

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This is not me in any way trying to be an asshole.  There are way too many rules.  Too many.   It is literally impossible to expect a person in a firefight to read a persons mind whether they are a threat or not.  It's impossible.  

If people are going to legitimately get banned for properly using kos rights then I honestly believe DayZRP should be a PvE community.   Zombies are back and we have wolves so it could work.   

So adding an addendum to the question.

Will dayzrp become PvE?     

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APureGamer    55
10 hours ago, Rolle said:

This is exactly why we have the rule 7.4 which specifically outlines that just because you have KoS rights doesn't mean it's ok to use them. We are primarily a RP server and as such kill rights should only be used when your or your friends lives are in danger. They should not be used solely because you have the OOC knowledge of kill rights - that's rule play. It must always make sense from IC perspective to kill someone and I guess in this case the GMs decided it did not make sense in that situation.

The GMs may have said it does not make sense. But clearly by the feedback of this thread it made sense to many people and has been justified as the wrong outcome. if thats the case something was clearly done wrong here and needs to be fixed. It really sucks to see threads like these.

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