Rule 15 - Permanent Death Discussion

[Rampage 0]

The problem really isnt with the filthy "PvPers its with the more "camp fire" players.  When you kill a group 10 times over and they still respawn and continue to talk shit over radio forums or in game, that is the main issue.   If you don't want to get permd don't create hostilities and comply.  Its really that simple.

[Terra 2090]

2 minutes ago, Rampage said:

The problem really isnt with the filthy "PvPers its with the more "camp fire" players.  When you kill a group 10 times over and they still respawn and continue to talk shit over radio forums or in game, that is the main issue.   If you don't want to get permd don't create hostilities and comply.  Its really that simple.

Which also would not change a thing. If everyone would be super friendly towards each other, not creating hostilities ingame or on forum, those who want to rob you, those who want to be hostile, those "filthy PVP'ers" (I hate that term tbh) who want to hunt you, will just find another reason to do so. Same circle. I am not against that, as long as the roleplay is good and as long as everyone would take their char's seriously.

[Rampage 0]

Just now, Terra said:

Which also would not change a thing. If everyone would be super friendly towards each other, not creating hostilities ingame or on forum, those who want to rob you, those who want to be hostile, those "filthy PVP'ers" (I hate that term tbh) who want to hunt you, will just find another reason to do so. Same circle. I am not against that, as long as the roleplay is good and as long as everyone would take their char's seriously.

But that is the thing.  If you want authentic role play and you want to value your characters life you shouldn't talk shit to the wrong group and if a bigger more powerful group picks on you then you give in so you don't die.  Or get people to join you to fight them that's if you can beat them.  Either way it's not like I am supporting a perm upon one execution.  There needs to be multiple cases of hostilities.  

[ZeroRP 1936]

2 hours ago, Terra said:

My only fear with a perma death rule is, that those who actually take their chars serious, having a connection to the char, trying to create their own story, will the be the ones who have to perma - Those who dont care about their char's, those who dont have a connection with their char, will not be affected. They will just create a new one and will be as reckless as before, because they dont care if they have to perma or not. #throwawaycharacter

It will not force any "PVP-hungry" player to all of a sudden roleplay seriously.

A simple solution for this would to have a requirement of your character having to be set as active to your profile and also having to have an extensive background written in the background page, something like 1000+ words or something, not sure it could be done by linking it to the whitelist / steam like they have done recently, but it's a start.

I think it could be managed because in order to create a page you are required to have a name and other minor things filled out before it will let you post it, solution would be to add a requirement of x amount of words before you could post it, and if this was implemented they would also have to be set as active on their profile to even play. I think it's a good solution.

It might deter people who don't feel like writing a story from playing, but what is the point in someone being here if they don't care enough to write a detailed background for said characters? It would get rid of the people who don't even bother having a story or stop them from just writing W.I.P. on their page and being done with it.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Zero

[Osaka 231]

1 hour ago, Zero said:

A simple solution for this would to have a requirement of your character having to be set as active to your profile and also having to have an extensive background written in the background page, something like 1000+ words or something, not sure it could be done by linking it to the whitelist / steam like they have done recently, but it's a start.

I think it could be managed because in order to create a page you are required to have a name and other minor things filled out before it will let you post it, solution would be to add a requirement of x amount of words before you could post it, and if this was implemented they would also have to be set as active on their profile to even play. I think it's a good solution.

It might deter people who don't feel like writing a story from playing, but what is the point in someone being here if they don't care enough to write a detailed background for said characters? It would get rid of the people who don't even bother having a story or stop them from just writing W.I.P. on their page and being done with it.

Like @Terra mentioned earlier. those who value their character and are not murderous rage players all the time, but deliver epic hostage battles (like I had in the old days) are going to suffer the most from this.

Indeed, you get killed more than x times in a firefight you permadeath. Sure, but how about those who simply get into trouble a lot without seeking blood.  Not everyone plays a goody two shoes, and will retaliate when provoked. Will that count?

Because I know a bunch of "hostile" players who take roleplaying seriously and simply want some tension and adrenaline going while fully submerged into their character so everyone enjoys it.

This permadeath rule is clearly risen because of those who merely exist in the game to kill, and nothing else. Most of them get banned fairly fast, but new ones, and those with a little bit of cloaking skills will simply rejoin, re-whitelist and move on. The are active on various servers, and don't give a shit about a 5 day ban. 

tl;dr

Permadeath because of dying too much is tricky, and staff will have a handfull on this if it becomes a thing.

 

[DocTeeth 32]

I would suspect pvp trolls are few and far between most of us. I don't want to see the fall of hostile RP nor do I wanna see people willing to fight back fall victim either. I know it sounds silly but if you've gotten to 2 out of 3 deaths in a month... lay low. I mean if you IRL know you are being targeted and out numbered its feasible to think you'd lay low stay outta sight and such. Is it cowardly? Yeah but its one thing to stand up to a bully and its another to stand unarmed in a one to five fight and they all have weapons that could or will kill you.

Also with the idea that those claiming your death should be required to have some sort of proof. Be it video or the admission of the player would also negate some deaths.. it may be abused but if the person or persons that killed you don't think its worth your characters Perma it could build some kindness between us the players. 

And that's not to say we lack kindness in this group, but that we are human and as such can become frustrated which  can turn to anger.

[plattonterror 0]

Well i am also against perma-death.  I mean as an experienced DnD player i know how bad it is when you develop a character to a great point ony to loose him/her

The funny thing is that i had the same argue about perma-death with a RL friend of my just some hours ago . He insist on the realistic approach (meaning die once then you perma) and then create a new character witch he would be blood related with the character that just died and have the same personality.

But i strongly believe that this is no character development at all . And i really cannot find myself to ask for permission to perma another player's character cause probably it would piss him off loosing a character he likes to play with . I would get pissed off if my current character died and halted my progress with him. Its a matter of respect in the end at least from my perspective

 

[mrsiCkstar 2]

I am in favor of anything that gets people to think twice about what they are about to do. I don't care if it's bandits, heroes or neutral survivor types. There needs to be a consequence to the decisions you make. If you're a bandit, why are you a bandit? Why are you robbing people? In real life, I doubt it would be just for fun unless you're a total psycho. It would probably be out of necessity, because you think it's the best way to survive. But even then, every time you go rob someone, it would be a hazardous thing to do, because you might end up dead. Just like soldiers in a war who breach a compound. Every door could be the last door you go through.

We need an element in game that makes us constantly weigh the pros and cons of our actions. If you rob someone, is it worth the risk? Every bandit should have to ask themselves that question. Is whatever supplies you can get from that person worth the risk of possibly losing your life, or losing men? For hero types, is stepping into a situation to stop a simple robbery worth risking your life or the lives of your men? Right now no one cares. The worst thing that can happen is you lose your gear and you get sent to the beach. Then you just run to your barrel or tent and re-gear. Where is the tention? Where is the fear?

Then there are group conflicts and long time grudges. You've been beefing with another group and you encounter them somewhere and there's a firefight and people die. Yet the next day you walk into Kabanino and the same characters are hanging out doing the same thing. Immersion breaker and it makes absolutely no sense. Or you take their leader captive and you execute them, and then the next day he's on the radio chatter talking shit to you about how much of a bad ass he is and you better not mess with his people. It's stupid.

We need consequences. If you're going to be a bad ass character who talks big on the radios you should have the skills to back it up. If not, then you should be dead in a ditch somewhere.

I'm in the minority here I'm sure (and by minority I mean I'm probably the only one), but I would go so far as to make every death a perma-death. If you're careless and you fall off a roof you're dead. If you pick the wrong clothes and it rains and you die of hypothermia, dead. If you talk shit on the radio and when the chips are down you don't have the PVP skills to back up your mouth, dead. Bled out from zombies or wolves? Dead.

We need people to care about their lives, and the only reason we do that is because of the things we don't want to lose. If you don't want to die, then act accordingly. Behave like you actually care and value your life. Be a human being.

To the people who say that people who don't care about their characters will just die and make a new character and go rob some more people: So what? It doesn't change the fact that the desired result for your character has been reached. And the result I'm talking about is this: Your character has just lived through and survived a conflict. That's character development. The character you were in conflict with is dead. He or she will never be seen again. You've won, they've lost. Whatever new throwaway character that person creates to continue his PVP giggles has no affect on your character because you don't know of their existence. Their new character won't know of yours. If you eventually end up meeting that new character again, it will be a brand new person with a different name and you will begin a new story together. Instead of now, when it's the same name with the same story who you've killed 8 times before, yet somehow miraculously is resurrected each time continuing the same old beef that never ends.

To the people who say that they want to be in control of when their character dies: You still are. You're still in control of your own destiny. But instead of dying repeatedly and deciding you're above the laws of physics, you're now controlling your destiny through your very actions in game.

Like I said, if you don't want to die, then act like it.

[Honda 493]

Due to the appearance of recent discussions, I think this thread should be brought back to life. This is something that allows for character development, but will also make people slow down when they decide how to act with their character. It will provide players to actually think and how they are valuing their characters life before attacking/torturing/capturing/ and general hostile acts towards other individuals.

I think we as a community need to revisit this thread and continue the discussion as it is now a later date and some opinions may differ to what they were before.

p.s. @Ender said I could

[Cid 584]

There should honestly be a set of conditions that can be reached, but it's something that you have to pretty much go out of your way to really not give a shit about your character in order to reach that point.  I'd personally like to make executions meaningful and this would be a perfect way to do it, but we would have to change executions as well.

Just jotting down thoughts.  Currently nothing to bring up in terms of solutions as of right now.

[Nihoolious 1996]

On 1/4/2017 at 4:31 PM, Nihoolious said:

No for this simple reason: There is no need to create more rules.

People already do this willingly and therefore there is no need to force everyone else to do this. I do think people should be more open to allowing perma death, but that needs to be their own decision. There should not be some external factor in the form of rules that looms over how people direct their characters. No one should be banned or given points for not wanting to permanently kill the character they have put so much time and effort into.

Ignoring all the abuse and loopholes that result from this, there simply is no need for this. Leave it up to the player. Let them do it themselves, don't bring in an ooc factor in the forum of rules.

I'm just gonna quote what I said around the time this thread first came up. My opinion hasn't changed and I still think that enforcing perma death is not a smart decision. People should just put more effort into their executions and people need to be careful on the decisions they make as it might lead to their death. Easy solution with no reliance on OOC rules, we have enough of them.

[Saradomin 377]

I would like to have some sort of perm rule. Atm it is just a cluster with people getting killed left and right and then return, which creates awkward RP. It also feels like you do not have to be as careful, since you just "respawn" anyway....

 

+1 for perm rule, which have to be strict so that people can not just go around and killing of everyone

[Aiko 1239]

O-genki desu ka! ADMIN AIKO! I love Japanese Cartoons! 

I do not remember if I responded to this before, and too lazy to check.

I do not agree with a perma death rule, it really should be up to the person who is being executed. The way I look at it, is if we have a set system or wound counter, many people will start getting even more upset with each other. Because you have the "campfire" rpers whom will get upset because they dont want to be involved in hostile rp that could get then a wound or permd. But end up getting it anyway, which will strain that gap between hostile and passive rp even more. Not to mention fire fights will lead to groups hating each other more OOC then ICLY.

To me it will cause more problems with drama and hatred than we already have.

[APositivePara 1498]

Honestly, just make execution rights much harder to obtain. Much MUCH harder to obtain, but once you have them enforce a permadeath on that character. Make executions meaningful, and the rp surrounding them meaninful. Enough of this bullshit 'execution' for the sake of executing, just to see them return an hour later doing the exact same shit as before. It's a fucking piss take the amount of people that do this.

Disclaimer: (I'm referring to both the side that execute for the sake of executing, and the side that returns like nothing happened.)

 

On a slightly more serious note, and upon thinking of previous discussions with several people, permadeath rules are a great idea in concept but work out terribly when applied. People use permadeath as a reason to irritate people they have gripes with OOC, and this often ruins the rules OOC. It becomes difficult to distinguish between IC and OOC hate when permadeath rules are a thing. 

What i do think, is that execution rights need to be used more appropriately and not for the sake of doing it. I also believe that people need to start RPing out their character's injury. If you aren't going to permadeath, have some decency and RP out an injury you sustain. I get so sick of seeing people just running around, initiating and dying only to repeat it. You chose to endanger your character by causing hostility, have some decency and RP out the consequences if it doesn't go your way.

[Mexi 3010]

Yeahhhh, no.

Not for this at all.

[Scarlett 591]

The point of a roleplay server is your playing out as if its irl. Sure players can be hostile and im all for that but permadeath will give you a sense of fear and maybe excitement if you are caught and executed. I'm not talking about perming your character at a firefight or anything or if you are executed with badrp. If you are caught due to a hostile act you commited and the rp is decent then yes perms should be applied. 

I don't think it will destroy hostile rp it might make whatever group double think what they will do it might make hostile rpers more loyal and make them stick together to prevent one of there group from getting permed.

But if this was to happen then the execution rule should be more reinforced not like eg he robbed me stole my gear me and my friend hunted him down and executed him. You have to think is it enough to kill this player. If perm was mandatory with executions then it has to be equal to the crime they commited -  torture would be one of them or a group at war if they were caught. 

I don't believe it will hinder rp hostile or campfire. It might bring some excitement if you know you are caught you might die.  It would bring some meaning to executions and to your character.

[Princess Aurora 796]

I can see it now group A slays group B, then group A later in the day finds another member of group B and blasts him thus killing his character or some shit, making him play a new character but little did group A know that that group B member characters brother just happened to be in the area who just happens to be a lot like his kin. Oh and then there is the whole people don't know the difference from OOC and IC so you get more drama and what not.

I am and have always been down for perma deathing my character if the roleplay leading up to it was alright.

A big NO from young me.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" - Someguy

[Scarlett 591]

lol group a and b and c slay each all the time doesn't make much difference. But your right about the drama people will need to remember its ic.

Barely anyone rp's their injuries and executions are thought of as an inconvience to their game. If people don't want to perm thats up to them at least rp the injuries out. Nowadays people fight and die or get captured and executed and the cycle begins again and again. I don't no if perms is the right option but something needs to come and bring a bit of seriousness into the game to stop it from being so repetitive.

People don't really care right know if they are killed in a firefight or executed cause when they respawn they rob someone for the gear they need to fight and the cycle begins again.

I have done it myself, I believe if you were to be executed you would perm because realistically you can't survive a 5 man firing squad or being hung from a castle wall.

True it would cause more ooc salt but if you want to be a hostile rper then that would be the price you pay if you were caught.

[Princess Aurora 796]

Just now, idole said:

-eh-

I have no problem rping out injures I do most of the time... at the end of the day my man its not the pvp scum hostile roleplayers who will be upset over this rule. Its the people who put hours upon hours into there characters (cough), I am all for realism but lets keep in mind this is just a game and lets just have fun and not worry about little things.

Yes this will have a positive mindset in game but it will also have a negative mindset of people being more recluse than now and not roleplaying.

[Scarlett 591]

4 minutes ago, Rebel Pado said:

-snip-

You make good points I do agree with you in most of the things your saying and it is a game the most important part is having fun. But rp is suppose to be the base of the community. People who put hours into there character will add a bit of fear into them when they make them hostile cause they might die.

I like hostile rp I find it fun. At first when I started dayzrp I hated it thought it was a personnel attack on myself but the longer I played the more it became a way of playing and then I too started to become more hostile. You make good points about the pros and cons of this I am not disagreeing on that.

I am just saying their should be a danger if your willing to participate wether your a full blown pvp god or a gentle campfire rper reacting to a hostile act. 

[Princess Aurora 796]

6 minutes ago, idole said:

-snip-

I think hostile rp danger doesn't exist anymore I agree with you on that point but its not an IC thing we can fix sadly even with a perma deathing rule its a OOC thing that will either never be fixed or hopefully the lore wipe will fix.

Here is hoping.

[Scarlett 591]

1 minute ago, Rebel Pado said:

-snip-

I completely agree with you there.

It won't be a miracle fix.

But there is always hope

[iamBATMAN 2]

Im not a big fan of perma death, because it greatly punishes people with extremely unique characters. It's really easy to replace kinda generic survivor, ex military, everything sucks type of characters. But people who like more comedic RP gonna blow through their colorful characters so fast and gonna end up have your generic my family died im pissed characters. I might be overthinking this, but ive played on the server with permadieath, and sure u are in control of not getting into trouble, but at the same time it limits your RP oppurtunities and puts it inside a "frame". 

[NishiUrban 90]

 I played one of my favorite characters with the idea that if I legitimately died (not due to a bug or zombie, accident, etc.) that I might perma the character. It definitely affected the way I played the character, and made situations where I was taken hostage tense and scary on occasion. (I was also letting myself get perma scarred if I felt there was a solid reason, and it wasn't insanely excessive.) So despite the fact that I wasn't playing as a bandit, or hero, but just some survivor that hadn't really done anything to be hunted down or tortured, it was always something I had to actually worry about when running into people I didn't know. It also made me weary when it came to retaliation for things that were done to me.

 

 A rule wasn't required for me to play this way, and at the end of the day if I died and seriously didn't want to perma the character, maybe I still wouldn't have. (I'm not sure I ever ended up dying in the first place.) My point is, rule or not, people have to have the desire to play as if their character might die for good even if they don't plan to perma at the end of the day. Not everyone wants that play style however, and any rules that are made in regard to being forced to perma a character will only do more harm than good when enforced.  People will just be put into a position of never wanting to comply, because some random guy decides to execute you for *insert reason*.

[Phoenix 3438]

On 1/3/2017 at 10:02 PM, Henning said:

No, Permadeathing someones character is that persons choice. This community needs less rules not more of them.

I'm going to go way back and agree with Henning here.
We don't need more rules god dammit.

32 minutes ago, iamBATMAN said:

Im not a big fan of perma death, because it greatly punishes people with extremely unique characters.

Also this.

58 minutes ago, Rebel Pado said:

 hopefully the lore wipe will fix.

I Honestly don't think the lorewipe is going to change anything. It's 1) Going to be really awkward to actually pretend like you're scared of the infected. 2) People will play the same characters they are playing now. Not a lot of people will actually try a different playstyle than they already are. I've talked to a lot of guys I used to RP with and they are sticking to being campfire rp'ers that hide away and don't want to encounter anyone else's rp. and 3) The OOC Mindset won't change. TLDR, everything's going to be the same, even executions etc.

1 hour ago, Rebel Pado said:

I am all for realism but lets keep in mind this is just a game and lets just have fun and not worry about little things.

I've said it before. Some people here seem to take realism way too overly serious and forget it's a game and we're supposed to have fun.

Forcing a permadeath upon someone who wants to flesh out their characters to the extreme is a really stupid rule and it shouldn't happen. Period.

I only ever permadeathed one character in my 2 years in the community and that was my Outrun Character.
I don't create a lot of characters and I stick to one and try to flesh them out. I'd get super fucking bored if I had to perma all the time and start all my friendships and relationships from scratch.

There's no better feeling than walking around the map and recognising everyone you see, picking up on old memories or hostilities.
Therefore I do not permadeath unless I really really have to or want to. So it only happened once in the past.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Phoenix