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Rule 15 - Permanent Death Discussion

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9 minutes ago, Castiel said:

It would remain your decision, the rule would be to enforce consequences that you yourself deserve based on the hostile actions you have taken against people resulting in them gaining execution rights on you. If nobody ever gains execution rights on you then you have nothing to worry about and can continue to play your character to your heart's content.

I just feel that the rule is going to encourage more Campfire RP, and not everyone taste is Campfire but they don't want to be perma'ed either.

Besides, how many times has someone taken a Civilian hostage and threatened to kill them because someone else is White Knighting, and the hostage takers are screaming at you to tell them to stop but you don't even know who it is. Too much "Iffey".

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14 minutes ago, Castiel said:

-snip-

No, If its being seen that way let me be completely honest then.

Like many rules within this community, people hide behind them. People abuse them, even if it does not make RP sense. People bring OOC matters IC more often then its publicly known. Proving this is almost impossible. A great example would be the newly introduced settlement rules, You can see those in a recent report. 

From my point I have worked hard developing my character. I dont want it to be taken away due to someone abusing and hiding behind the rules. If the RP is good enough and calls for it, isnt this why we have //Permission to Perm? If everyone was honest and followed the rules instead of wearing them like a sheet of armour, Id be perfectly happy with this rule. 

 

Edited by C-J

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On 1/8/2017 at 8:06 AM, Osaka said:

Probably true. 

 

But if I play a character and want to keep playing that character, nobody can simply decide they end my character without be agreeing to it.

No matter how good the argument might be. That is simple powerplay, which is not alllowed.

So yes, permadeath can be roleplayed very well, and no I did not proofread 16 pages of opinions, I just give mine.

*addition*

The ancient rule of "you get killed" was fine.

You decide if you make a new character or have your character "survive the attack" and wake up on the beach not knowing what happened.

If you roleplay a hostage situation where you end up being killed, you can just follow the NLR rule, but keep your character and background. I do not see any reason why some random person can simply force you to create a complete new character.

Except the rule doesn't allow random people to perma-death you. Perhaps read over the rule and look over the arguments, the rule is suppose to encourage more RP instead of shit-talking to instigate a firefight or robbery. If your character is an edge lord bandit and keeps committing crimes against humanity then they should have to suffer the consequences if they are captured, it's that simple. People don't care about their actions because they realize they can just respawn if they fuck up.

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24 minutes ago, Castiel said:

This type of selfish mentality is exactly the reason so many of us want the rule. People need to answer for themselves and face the consequences of their actions.

Jaysus Castiel, calm down ;)

I don't believe its a selfish mentality coming from CJ (Hope I don't know you so I can't say you're a martyr <3), its moreso the fear of losing so much progress and time with his character. I know CJ gives it his all in his RP, I've experienced it first hand, and investing yourself in a character for so long, you grow attached to the character, its like a reflection of your creative ability and nobody wants to lose their hard work, RP hours and investment in their lore. Whats the point in RPing an in-depth character if someone can take it away from you?

In rebuttal to CJ and Hope, I don't think that forcing a permanent death on anybody is what the rule would be about. Your actions determine the fate of your character, the world determines the fate of your character and constantly living through battle after battle, execution after execution and death after death, it gets tiring for both sides. Your actions are your consent to death, so to speak. Currently, there's no fruit from the RP tree, just the same old apples over and over again, your actions become meaningless in the grand scheme of things because there's no permanent consequence to them. Whats the point in RPing if you can't be held accountable for your actions, and pay the ultimate price for them?

I know that's what I came here for and, on the suggestion of @Mr Anon (yeah I know it was an accident), I'll be implementing a lives system on my own character. Maxwell has 7 lives, he dies to the hands of a player, he loses a life. He dies to the environment, he loses a life. Max loses all his lives, Max is permanently killed. Its going to bring consequence back for me at the very least, and enrich my own RP. I came here to play out realistic stories with friends and strangers and if it makes sense for me to die, who am I to deny the other person the satisfaction?

Long story short: kill me plz

Edited by Elmo

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I know from the german server that it didnt end well with people forcing to perma death.  It just ended with that that the server had no hostile interaction at all anymore.

But I can understand the other side too.

I dont think there is a perfect solution for that problem.

Maybe a "wounded" - System but not forcing people to permadeath.

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I've avoided this discussion for some time, but I feel like I might as well interject now. 

Personally, I disagree with implementing a rule such as this. I am somewhat conflicted, but seeing as we have had the system we have now for such a long time, and seeing how well it has worked all this time, it puts me more towards the side of disagreement. People have always perma-deathed their characters on their own accord and by their own personal rules. This allows them the freedom they want and it allows them to pick and choose how their character will go down in the lore and history of the server. To me, this seems to be the best way as it ensures that people's characters will only be perma-deathed when they decide. After all, they are the ones who created the character and put the work into it, it should not be someone else's decision as to when all this work can be wiped away. 

In all my time on DayZRP, I have never played any bandit characters, but it is quite obvious that this rule would affect bandit characters more than any others. This is another one of the reasons I am against implementing this rule. I feel as if the amount of bandits currently is quite realistic as the majority of people in a real life scenario would most likely be focused more on keeping themselves alive rather than random strangers. This would lead to an increase in robberies/killings making them quite commonplace. As it has been stated, upon the implementation of this rule, hostile actions would most likely decrease to quite a low point. This, in my opinion, would make things much more unrealistic and, more importantly, less fun. Bandits and hostile RP are an essential part of a roleplay server and having a decreased amount would do nothing but hurt the server. 

The last part that I would like to point out is the workload. Often times, when community members suggest a new rule, one of the first things that comes up, usually from a staff member, is how much more of a workload this would put on an already overworked staff team. Some of the requirements for this perma-death rule are so specific and require so much evidence that it would probably end up being reported more times than not, therefore creating even more problems for the staff team to solve. 

Overall, the negatives seem to quite heavily outweigh the positives and I am personally quite against the implementation of a rule like this. 

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2 minutes ago, Lyca said:

Maybe a "wounded" - System but not forcing people to permadeath.

I've proposed this in the past and I still think it would be an idea worth considering. Possibly something like:

Dying in a firefight = can't play that character for 24 hours.

Dying due to (Valid) execution = Can't play that character for 5 days.

Possibly even including RP incentives, like cutting the injury timeout in half if you are able to find a doctor and participate in medical RP. Any time a rule like this can incentivize and encourage roleplay, it's a win win. Rather than a flat out punishment for dying. As @Lycamentioned, I'd rather not simply discourage everyone from ever engaging in hostile RP by hanging a "Forced Permadeath" over their head as a consequence. People already feel the need to "always win" as it is, this will only make that even more apparent. 

I'm still open to this idea, and I've read some great arguments in favor of it, as well as some very reasonable steps to make sure it doesn't go too far or get abused, but I'm, still not completely sold. I get a lot of positive feedback when I play Skinner who is a hostile character, but honestly I die a lot because I don't bandit shuffle, I don't march people through the woods for 20 minutes, I prioritize roleplay over all else and I am okay with dying if I was the only one in TS not to know that they have a sniper on the north hill or something because I was the only one who muted and deafened as soon as the initiation dropped. As long as the victim(s) of the encounter had  an entertaining encounter and some good RP was had, all I lost was some clothing and a gun so who cares.

I'm afraid a change like this will cause even the good hostile RPers to begin to play more "win at all costs" and prioritize scoping out the tree lines and bandit shuffling over all else, including RP. This will promote long drawn out silences as the hostage takers frantically coordinate coverage and positioning. BadRP reports will be met with answers like "Well we had to leave you alone in silence to ensure our safety as we organized our defenses. We can't risk dying or being captured as it could lead to a permadeath in the future" and could you really blame them if they used that defense? 

I think there is a degree to which I would be okay with this, but I am still not sure where I would draw the line yet.

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Yes! I love this! I think something that would be great to add on to this would be that if Group A got execution rights on Group B, and used them, Group B has automatic rights on Group A. This will make groups more nervous to attack each other. 

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I see both sides of this discussion. On one side yes in real life you don't get to die thousands of time and just magically spawn on a beach and start over. There is a lot of PvP and as long as you stay inside the rules and aren't salty about gear there is not real down side to risking it a bit in a firefight as long as it's not nvfl. I do see how to much PvP could ruin a rp server. Which I'm not saying is happening to dayzrp, but on the other side of things it would be horrible to lose all the IC relationships you build with others just because someone else thought you should be perma. Some people put a lot of time into back story and ingame relationship and groups. To lose all that because the choice was someone else would be a tough thing to handle. I also believe it would cause a lot of OOC hate toward the person who premaed you. The community doesn't need that. With all that said I believe it should be left up to the player but if it isn't there should be a forum wall where it is posted OOC that you have perma on someone so there there is a mark and ensure it is justifiable and not someone being salty about being robbed or something stupid.

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Give people 3 chances. 3 hostile encounters. If you're killed 3 times in a robbery or a firefight it becomes unrealistic to see you again. Makes people choose who they rob and start beef with. The consequences are after the 3rd time of being killed it will be a perm. Perm needs to be enforced.

It sucks that everyone is a god damn terminator. 

Edited by APureGamer.

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I know its been said before but perhaps I can put a fresh spin on it. Perma should be through the players choice alone.. but as humans we all make mistakes and there should be consequences.

Reasons for Perma-death:

1. A person chooses to let their character die off

2. If war is agreed on and declared between two parties (proof of kill is needed)

3. If you've chosen to get into conflict and are killed three times within a month otherwise death count resets. (Proof of kill is needed)

Just my thought on it.

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6 minutes ago, DocTeeth said:

I know its been said before but perhaps I can put a fresh spin on it. Perma should be through the players choice alone.. but as humans we all make mistakes and there should be consequences.

Reasons for Perma-death:

1. A person chooses to let their character die off

2. If war is agreed on and declared between two parties (proof of kill is needed)

3. If you've chosen to get into conflict and are killed three times within a month otherwise death count resets. (Proof of kill is needed)

Just my thought on it.

Gonna plus uno this cause i agree.

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12 minutes ago, DocTeeth said:

I know its been said before but perhaps I can put a fresh spin on it. Perma should be through the players choice alone.. but as humans we all make mistakes and there should be consequences.

Reasons for Perma-death:

1. A person chooses to let their character die off

2. If war is agreed on and declared between two parties (proof of kill is needed)

3. If you've chosen to get into conflict and are killed three times within a month otherwise death count resets. (Proof of kill is needed)

Just my thought on it.

This is almost exactly what I was thinking. There should be real, full consequences for starting a war with another group or people instead of just endless skirmishes over and over again, but I dont want to be permakilled by some random motherfucker that decides he wants to ruin my day by executing me with his pro MLG gang.

Good job

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There needs to be a rule where you get captured and executed once, and you have to perma death. Enough running around and being cunts with no consequences. How am I gonna execute someone and see them running around the next day? Immersion? Makes no sense. If you get executed with rights that is it. Make a new character, enough of this awkward bullshit of oh I brained you but you're still somehow alive? Thats the change this community needs but sadly it will NEVER happen. Thats why RP is washed and boring, no consequences and its like a spin cycle.  Plus if you wanna complain and say "oooooo I work so hard on dis character its my choice to perma kill dem" no it isnt. You wanna be a douche and get someone to have execution on you then sucks to suck. This with a lore wipe would fix the lack of roleplay and bullshit, FUCK.

Edited by Diamond

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Consider table-top RPG games such as Pathfinder n DnD. Yeah you put a lot of work into a character and shit, but part of the game is trying to keep them alive up until they die.

Try to hope for a meaningful death. Mourn the character. Enjoy a fresh start on a fresh duderino. Just because it's a new character doesn't mean you have to start completely over with your friends. You can just #pickuparadio and meet back up with them, have some fun little "oh hey who's this new guy" RP. Then get back to hangin out and playing the game. 

---

Additionally, a point that I'm not sure has been brought up yet. There seems to be a stigma around perming characters.

On the few occasions that I've permed characters every time has had a consistent result. I unmute on TS and say something along the lines of "Welp, so and so is dead."

Unanimous response, "Woah! Why'd you perma that character!? Dude, you can't perma that character!"

I explain that I can, and the execution was valid and so forth and who dunnit.

Response, "WHAT!? DUDE YOU CAN'T PERMA TO THEM!"

Well who am I supposed to perma to then? You? We're all in a group together, we're in the same comms and even then you already have expressed you don't want the character to die.

Reduce stigma of permaing characters. Yes the character was loved, that's what makes their deaths meaningful. Hell, have some dank funeral RP. Mourn the loss and give the new guy who walked in 20 minutes later some beans and 5.56.

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On 1/14/2017 at 9:29 PM, Hope said:

I spent a year developing Hope and plan on doing more. Killing off Hope is MY decision like it was MY decision to create her.

If you make this community based on taking away freedom of peoples characters or something they have put hard work into the community will go down his because everyone will only look forward to being permadeathed. This may be for valid reasons or made up reasons just to rid of the character, also needing to mention that proof would have to proven against the person of being permadeathed which staff will be mounted with work. 

In best interest this rule should remain as it always has. It should be the owner's decision what to do with the character and no one elses.

It is your decision when to permadeath your character, but surely if you actively attack somebody and it backfires there should be repercussions? Actions always have consequences and right now there are no consequences to being a dick to people constantly IC. 

The rule should change. If you give  people a good reason to kill you, and you are executed validly, you would not be getting out alive after it.  I'm not saying it should be done on a whim, but valid execution of somebody who is clearly an enemy and has given your character a justifiable sense of being seriously wronged should lead to a perma. Like, it does not make sense for me to see said person again because I know i would do everything in my power to kill them.

Edit: Personally i would just make execution rights very hard to obtain but a valid execution should lead to a perma. Similarly i think dying a number of times in fights should result in a permadeath. The argument could be that you could just keep your character alive by not complying if that is the case.

 

Edited by Para

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On 1/14/2017 at 11:02 PM, Zero said:

Except the rule doesn't allow random people to perma-death you. Perhaps read over the rule and look over the arguments, the rule is suppose to encourage more RP instead of shit-talking to instigate a firefight or robbery. If your character is an edge lord bandit and keeps committing crimes against humanity then they should have to suffer the consequences if they are captured, it's that simple. People don't care about their actions because they realize they can just respawn if they fuck up.

After reading through walls of text even Trump would be jealous of, and collecting everybody's opinion I do must admit I need to change my stance towards the whole idea.

To avoid a clusterfuck of supersoldiers who fearlessly murder everything in their path and then call it roleplaying we need something to prevent people from playing a total asshat all the time.

Especially after seeing some video evidence used in reports I too think this is needed. Too many short robberies, and everyone scared to death about loosing gear, while KOS seeking trolls care less about roleplay and more about trying to get as much kills as possible without getting banned.

Anyway long story short;

the permadeath rule is a good thing. Must it must be easy to regulate otherwise the gamemasters are going to have migraine attack of all the whiny reports about an unfair permadeath. A permadeath must be a penalty of epic proportions.

Because those who get permadeath penalties because of their in game bloodlust care less about their character and simply just press the randomize button for a new one as they start killing again.

That was my other concern.

Will it even work?

 

 

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Guest Roach

Listen, I ain't gonna read through all of this. But I used to be against perma-death but I am at a point where something needs to be done about the PVP hungry people.

They are killing DayZRP and I stand by this statement. Theses people "PVPers" probably enjoy destroying dayzrp, feels like they are celebrating every time they achieve something close to this. 

But you know what the problem is? These people won't give a shit about perma death, they will die, come back with a different name and stay exactly the same. Because they don't prioritize Roleplay, they just wanna add an extra kill to their count.

I feel like there's no way to enforce this even if we wanted to, so whatever we do, we will always just sit here and watch dayzrp die because of people that do NOT play on this server for the right reasons, which is fuckin roleplay. PVPers will always find "valid" excuses as to why they kill all the time and only roleplay about 5-10% of the time.

But anyways... 

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My only fear with a perma death rule is, that those who actually take their chars serious, having a connection to the char, trying to create their own story, will the be the ones who have to perma - Those who dont care about their char's, those who dont have a connection with their char, will not be affected. They will just create a new one and will be as reckless as before, because they dont care if they have to perma or not. #throwawaycharacter

It will not force any "PVP-hungry" player to all of a sudden roleplay seriously.

Edited by Terra

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12 minutes ago, Terra said:

They will just create a new one and will be as reckless as before, because they dont care if they have to perma or not. #throwawaycharacter

It will not force any "PVP-hungry" player to all of a sudden roleplay seriously.

Eventually I would suspect most of these reckless throwaway players will be weeded out and the more careful players will band together. #walkingdeadrp

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Just now, Jared said:

Eventually I would suspect most of these reckless throwaway players will be weeded out and the more careful players will band together. #walkingdeadrp

And why would you think that would happen since it could eventually happen already...

Edited by Terra

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Just now, Terra said:

And why would you think that would happen?

Those that want to survive will seek like minded individuals as we do in real life. Those that want violence will find it and if they fail they will eventual lose that character. The only reason banditry is so prevalent nowadays is because everyone sees how benificial to survival it can be. It is easy, too easy. If these same people keep dying and not accomplishing their own goals, they will adapt or perish. If becoming a bandit is more risky than being a survivor, the sentiment will change. 

 

However, you can't change the mind of a butthurt sixteen year old hell bent on griefing you.

 

Nothing changes if there are no changes made. +1 for the permadeath rule.

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26 minutes ago, Terra said:

-snip-

The reason we value connection so much is because it can be broken. I don't think I need to explain that.

1 minute ago, Jared said:

 The only reason banditry is so prevalent nowadays is because everyone sees how benificial to survival it can be. It is easy, too easy.

People are bandits because its entertaining, gear is easy to get, its nothing to do with survival. The game is boring, the RP is repetitive and PvP/hostility freshens it up. 

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Just now, Jared said:

Those that want to survive will seek like minded individuals as we do in real life. Those that want violence will find it and if they fail they will eventual lose that character. The only reason banditry is so prevalent nowadays is because everyone sees how benificial to survival it can be. It is easy, too easy. If these same people keep dying and not accomplishing their own goals, they will adapt or perish. If becoming a bandit is more risky than being a survivor, the sentiment will change. 

 

However, you can't change the mind of a butthurt sixteen year old hell bent on griefing you.

 

Nothing changes if there are no changes made. +1 for the permadeath rule.

I agree, however the rule will not change that...you said it yourself -if they fail they will eventual lose that character- Now, what prevents them to do the same thing over and over again, since they dont care about the character and more about the benefits banditry brings them? I say, nothing. That rule wont prevent it happening.

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1 minute ago, Terra said:

I agree, however the rule will not change that...you said it yourself -if they fail they will eventual lose that character- Now, what prevents them to do the same thing over and over again, since they dont care about the character and more about the benefits banditry brings them? I say, nothing. That rule wont prevent it happening.

Supplemental rules to prevent such acts. Or, we just deal with the never-ending waves of baddies and let perma-deathing major characters change the ongoing story that is DayzRP. I've suggested this before but if faction leaders have the same rules and you cut the head of this hypothetical snake then the body should die, or at least someone should else should have to take over. I think it would be interesting if permadeath could shape groups and factions, even settlements. If nobody takes over then it goes away or turns into something else. People die all the time, the game is about survival and not everyone should survive. 

Just thoughts.

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