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Rule 15 - Permanent Death Discussion

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You can have a million pages of discussion about permadeath rules,tweaks and endless streams of exceptions, but I think the conclusion is simple:

- The owner of the character decides whether to permadeath or not. reasons don't matter. D

- Death should be roleplayed at all times no matter what kind of death.

The end.

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8 minutes ago, Osaka said:

-snip-

Probably should read the thread before you make up your mind. Some decent arguments there.

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1 hour ago, Elmo said:

Probably should read the thread before you make up your mind. Some decent arguments there.

Probably true. 

 

But if I play a character and want to keep playing that character, nobody can simply decide they end my character without be agreeing to it.

No matter how good the argument might be. That is simple powerplay, which is not alllowed.

So yes, permadeath can be roleplayed very well, and no I did not proofread 16 pages of opinions, I just give mine.

*addition*

The ancient rule of "you get killed" was fine.

You decide if you make a new character or have your character "survive the attack" and wake up on the beach not knowing what happened.

If you roleplay a hostage situation where you end up being killed, you can just follow the NLR rule, but keep your character and background. I do not see any reason why some random person can simply force you to create a complete new character.

Edited by Osaka
additional text

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5 minutes ago, Osaka said:

-snip-

I recommend looking at other perspectives before giving your own. I did that and it changed my view on the matter :)

 

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1 minute ago, Elmo said:

I recommend looking at other perspectives before giving your own. I did that and it changed my view on the matter :)

 

I did, and I gave my perception. My perception does not have to include those of the others. otherwise it's not my perception, but those of others with me agreeing to them.

So my perception is:

I decide whether MY character permadeaths or not.

Edited by Osaka

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16 minutes ago, Osaka said:

Probably true. 

 

But if I play a character and want to keep playing that character, nobody can simply decide they end my character without be agreeing to it.

No matter how good the argument might be. That is simply powerplay, which is not alllowed.

So yes, permadeath can be roleplayed very well, and no I did not proofread 16 pages of opinions, I just give mine.

I had this same stance ever since the the thread got started.

But then I actually read into it more. Clearly, you haven't, but there's always time!

I agree with Rule 15 to a degree. There SHOULD be consequences for repetitive negative actions, but it's hard system to formulate. I'd never end Amy Strange, but I'd also never sit there and give anyone a reason to end her as well. And in this discussion? It seems you get three reasons before you realize you done just fucked up and deserve that permanent end to the story of your character.

The rule itself is a sharp, double-edged sword.

Edited by SatansNightOut

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1 minute ago, Osaka said:

I did, and I gave my perception. My perception does not have to include those of the others. otherwise it's not my perception, but those of others with me agreeing to them.

Not to become philosophical, its just plain ignorant to disregard the opinions of others. Examining all sides of the fence before deciding where you stand is often the best course of action.

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1 hour ago, Elmo said:

Probably should read the thread before you make up your mind. Some decent arguments there.

 

2 minutes ago, Elmo said:

Not to become philosophical, its just plain ignorant to disregard the opinions of others. Examining all sides of the fence before deciding where you stand is often the best course of action.

"its just plain ignorant to disregard the opinions of others"

Didn't you just do that to me? I gave my opinion, you say "lel nope you need to read everybody's opinion first, then alter your opinion and only then you may give your altered opinion"

You are telling me what my opinion should be like, and then tell me it's bad to do that.

Now I'm confused.

6 minutes ago, SatansNightOut said:

I had this same stance ever since the the thread got started.

But then I actually read into it more. Clearly, you haven't, but there's always time!

One of my first RP experiences ~15 years ago was Ultima Online, back when they had a murder system (before fucking Trammel). But if you killed (PK'd) a certain amount of people that reported you as a murderer, you'd become a permanent "red name", which meant if you died, you'd lose a LOT of stats (such as LiF).

But that being said, I agree with this idea to a degree. There SHOULD be consequences for repetitive negative actions, but it's hard system to formulate.

But that event mainly holds to those who kill in game.

It doesn't affect the "goodies". So that way the punishment of being bad, is to be bad forever by marking those who are.

They can chose to reset themselves with a new character and try again. But I played LiF a lot before. And starting all over from the beginning can be frustrating is you have all your stats reset. (if that's what happens)

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Just now, Osaka said:

-snip-

An opinion and the thought process are two totally different things. I didn't disregard your opinion, I considered it and came to the conclusion that mine makes more sense, simply because I can't think of everything, so I'll think of what I can and then see the thoughts of others and whether or not I agree with them or if they make sense.

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18 minutes ago, Osaka said:

But that event mainly holds to those who kill in game.

It doesn't affect the "goodies". So that way the punishment of being bad, is to be bad forever by marking those who are.

They can chose to reset themselves with a new character and try again. But I played LiF a lot before. And starting all over from the beginning can be frustrating is you have all your stats reset. (if that's what happens)

In what world do you live in that "bad" people aren't marked in some way or another? Name any era of history, and there are criminals or bounties for people... and "wanted posters", most-wanted lists, robbers, thieves....and MURDERERS. In human society, as social creatures, we don't just ignore or forget things like this.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. Often, when people go against the common good of society, they are marked as "Criminals" and thus have records, or hearsay and word-of-mouth of their crimes... locally marked and heard.

Also, I have no idea why LiF is even being mentioned. I was under the impression this was a DayZ conversation.

Edited by SatansNightOut

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6 minutes ago, SatansNightOut said:

In what world do you live in that "bad" people aren't marked? Name any era of history, and there are criminals or bounties for people... and "wanted posters", most-wanted lists, robbers, thieves....and MURDERERS.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. Often, when people go against the common good of society, they are marked as "Criminals" and thus have records, or hearsay and word-of-mouth of their crimes... locally marked and heard.

Also, I have no idea why LiF is even being mentioned? That is a WIP currently, and I was under the impression this was a DayZ conversation.

You mentioned LIF, you just edited that out later.

Doesn't matter. Yes criminals should be marked as such. In dayz you used to have the hero and bandit skin for that. It was useful. Now we don't have that.

But a criminal can "disguise" him/herself. It's not like the apocalypse has a well working justice system or register of who is bad or not. But I do believe you should be able to start a new life as a neutral if you desire to change your gameplay style.

This was always possible before.

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I suppose this is a moot point really, given how the discussion ended.

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I'm on the fence on this topic. I've been playing with a personal rule like this basically since day 1.

If my character dies in an at least reasonably legit manner (no rule-breaks/glitches) then I perma the character. From my experience a permadeath rule would benefit certain play styles more than others.

Namely the survivor/campfire RP will continue going on as usual since that RP has inherently less risk to it. They can follow along with this rule more easily since they won't really have to worry about it as often.

Whereas hostile RP and bandit RP will likely be most heavily impacted since they more frequently take actions that may lead to firefights and so forth. That comes with that style of play though. So, it makes sense to see push back and stress in this debate for them since they stand to lose the most.

As for leaving character perma down to the owner, I think there should be some sort of check and balance. We likely all want a satisfactory ending to our characters, if an ending at all. I've often heard it jokingly and seriously tossed around in TS group channels, "Damn dude, I would totally perma my character to your RP."

The message I take from that is that we should strive for the quality of RP that makes you go "Woah! Yeah I'm going out on that note. That was awesome."

 

TL;DR: Make your RP the stuff people dream of getting perma'd to. Perma rule stands to impact a particular group of RPer's more than another. Still not sure if I'd want it to be a full blown rule, but it has some potential.

 

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I like it. Being a cunt and torturing everyone in sight has consequences. 

Please keep this rule, rolle. Please. 

On 1/3/2017 at 5:08 PM, Strider said:

I've said it multiple times, if people want IC actions to have actual consequences, then there should be a perma death rule. Someone that has valid execution rights executes you? Perma. To the people that say "ITS MY CHARACTER MAH CHOICE!!", these people are probably still running with the same character they started with. A person that's been around for 2 years and has been executed about 50 times (example, not everyone is included in this obviously). You have to seriously pause and be honest with yourself, when are you going to make that choice? Probably never. Nothing happens on the server because it's always the same invincible characters that you've executed last night, but hey they are the big baddie that always wins so nothing negative ever happens to them. If you are a well-known bandit and you piss off the whole server IC well accept the consequences of your actions and if they capture you and execute you, you could perma or at least put him/her on the shelf for a couple to make people feel like they accomplished something. 

Another big issue that's linked to perma death is that there is no sense of accomplishment. You kill people you're at war with and they don't care because they just respawn and do the same shit the next hour. Like what's the point of doing anything if no one is willing to admit defeat and act like an adult? If you're getting fucked IC, then take your L and move on.

You don't want to perma death? Don't fuck over everyone you meet and give people a reason to have execution rights on you. Pretty simple really, it's called be held responsible for your actions IC. People always say RP is a two-way street, it's time to get on it.

This probably felt like an incoherent ramble.

Yeah pretty much what o want to say but I'm at work and don't wanna get laid off lol

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It's a two sided coin.

On one side, I'd certainly like to see a real element of fear for my character's life thrown into the mix.

But I certainly wouldn't want my character killed by a plot line that I deemed "un-worthy" of my character. I have an idea of how his death should go, and being killed by someone who- frankly- is awful at RP would upset me a little. People with year old characters surely feel even stronger about this point.

^ Though I would say: becoming attached to your characters is limiting to the RP you give out/receive. 

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Other servers have this option of perma deathing characters , and i have been apart of them and there rules ( Traitor XD) . And i have to agree with the aspect of having fear among other characters , but if you think about it you can play like that there are no rules saying that you can't perma death . The story is completely up to you and how you want the outcome to be and that is why i like it ( Also with the zombies being broken asf , people will be changing characters left right and center).

BUT , on the other hand  if you , lets say execute someone , i feel like after you execute them the second time then perma death should be enforced as it makes other rp more confusing and un realistic. 

Overall , i feel like perma death should be enforced . To a limit , making it be perma death after 2 executions would be my choice if i where to change the rules. 

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If I see this correctly, the Permadeath rule will most likely exist for hardcore bandits who do nothing but firefights, and thus get killed a lot.

But then, who is to decide how many times you may die before you cannot respawn as that character? And what is the point of it all? That player will just randomize a new name and continue playing a bandit.

There's already enough rules about death and how your character must behave after death.

I'm on the "goodie" side of roleplay, so I will most likely not die in a firefight. So the whole NLR rule and bandit status doesn't really affect me in the slightest. Maybe I simply don't understand the need for a permadeath rule.

But then to ask the sceptics a question. 

::

I play my character Nikolai Osaka ever since I joined DayzRP. which is a fairly long time ago. And nobody ever told me to stay dead after a hostage situation gone bad or something like that.

So what exactly are we aiming at here. What criteria do we give others to decide whether I'm allowed to play my character or am forced to make a new one? 

Who is to decide that? Do we get a poll after each death? can somebody appeal to their permadeath? This is probably going to cause problems.

::

So yes, bandits die a lot because they like to get into firefights a lot. They get revenge kills a lot, where as hero players avoid getting shot, and generally have no enemies.

If you build a rule that punishes players for having an evil character and rewarding those who are not evil, you'll get a shitstorm fairly soon. Also this is a roleplay server, not a firefight server. SO those who get 50 kills and the same amount of deaths within a month should question themselves if this server is the best for them.

-----

 

And yes I scanned through most of the posts in this discussion now (on popular demand) and come to the conclusion that my opinion doesn't change.

This is a hardcore roleplay server. So if you break your leg, and roleplay that, you should stick to that status for a while. But for how long? Who will decide whether you can walk again or not?

And if someone sees you the next day "not limping" then what? Roleplaying must be in the moment, and if you go offline, have a good night sleep, you should be able to just change your health stats, knowledge of what is going on, and or even rise from the grave after you got killed the day before.

"perma death by others" is a stupid idea, especially because some troll who joined two days ago can go apeshit on your ass and force you to make a new character.

 

So I'll stand my ground:

My character and it's health status is my choice to control. Temporary wounds and even an execution can be roleplayed, but that's it.

You can't have some squeaker walk up to you three days later telling you that you still have a broken leg, and cannot run.  Also, if I die, I abide to the NLR rule, and avoid any knowledge and location of my death, while simply go and play elsewhere on the map.

 

 

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You know what, I have actually changed my opinion. I was always for people deciding what happens to their characters. However, after reading this thread over the past few days, looking at the varied opinions and thread suggestions, I have changed my mind.

I am still majorly for people deciding their characters fate, however, I believe that the suggested rule made by the OP would be beneficial. I do agree that the lack of repercussions during conflict is a piss take. I think this rule would help regulate the current flaws in the war system.

People, coming back day after day to fight against groups double their size. Losing members in every situation, coming back like nothing happened. Having no repercussions, having no fear of a group that kicked their ass. Please excuse my French, it is fucking ridiculous. 

I am an all +1 to this rule addition. 

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@Jabba

So you are tired of people who play here only to get into lethal firefights 100% of the time, do not care about character roleplay and generally are a pest to what dayzRP makes the RP possible.

I can relate. I vented my version of that oh so many times well into the early alpha's of the mod, where things weren't very different.

But to be honest, how is a character name, which are just a bunch of words, going to change it? Those who seek a non stop murderious rage, and don't care about roleplay will be forced to permadeath their character, and then create a new one, and be back into a murderous rage within minutes, but they have a different name?

 

If you must implement something like this, then there must be some sort of penalty.  A permadeath must cause the player to whitelist all over again, with a new background and a new character, and go over the rules once again.

That would work. 

Nobody on the admin team will see this as a good idea, but it will be functional. 

You want excessive evil and death in (legit death) general to be scary and frowned upon? You do that. You should scare bandits by this, and force them to think twice about randomly go apeshit and act more human.

Because life is sacred, also to be most twisted kind of bandits. suicide is scary, think twice before you put your own ass in danger.

How's that for a thought? 

Edited by Osaka

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1 hour ago, Osaka said:

@Jabba

So you are tired of people who play here only to get into lethal firefights 100% of the time, do not care about character roleplay and generally are a pest to what dayzRP makes the RP possible.

I can relate. I vented my version of that oh so many times well into the early alpha's of the mod, where things weren't very different.

But to be honest, how is a character name, which are just a bunch of words, going to change it? Those who seek a non stop murderious rage, and don't care about roleplay will be forced to permadeath their character, and then create a new one, and be back into a murderous rage within minutes, but they have a different name?

 

If you must implement something like this, then there must be some sort of penalty.  A permadeath must cause the player to whitelist all over again, with a new background and a new character, and go over the rules once again.

That would work. 

Nobody on the admin team will see this as a good idea, but it will be functional. 

You want excessive evil and death in (legit death) general to be scary and frowned upon? You do that. You should scare bandits by this, and force them to think twice about randomly go apeshit and act more human.

Because life is sacred, also to be most twisted kind of bandits. suicide is scary, think twice before you put your own ass in danger.

How's that for a thought? 

You point out the exact thing that I said earlier in this thread. People who want to PvP won't give a shit about going to the main menu, putting a new random name and going in again throwing their meaningless life away for an adrenaline rush. On the other end, people who care about their story and character will be gravely penalized. Re-whitelisting is a bit extreme though, and I think that what we need is mandatory character pages that needs staff approval. You die, you make a new character with a full-fledged background and story. No skipping to the menu and rolling a random supersoldier and going back in for dank RPvP.

 

The only bad thing I can see from this would be big groups of PvPers targeting specific community members to force them to remake new characters and trying to bully them out of the server.

Edited by SomeWeirdAssGuy

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17 minutes ago, SomeWeirdAssGuy said:

You point out the exact thing that I said earlier in this thread. People who want to PvP won't give a shit about going to the main menu, putting a new random name and going in again throwing their meaningless life away for an adrenaline rush. On the other end, people who care about their story and character will be gravely penalized. Re-whitelisting is a bit extreme though, and I think that what we need is mandatory character pages that needs staff approval. You die, you make a new character with a full-fledged background and story. No skipping to the menu and rolling a random supersoldier and going back in for dank RPvP.

Not long ago Rolle was planning to implement a system where you couldn't join the servers unless your character name was the name of a character page on the site, which was set as your active character. So basically it forced you to have an active character page for your character's name.

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I wouldn't perma death a character based on a rule. I spend hours beyond hours developing my current character, I believe 800+ For him to end because of a rule implemented on the server... I wouldn't be so happy. since ive been included  in many hostile situations already.

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I spent a year developing Hope and plan on doing more. Killing off Hope is MY decision like it was MY decision to create her.

If you make this community based on taking away freedom of peoples characters or something they have put hard work into the community will go down his because everyone will only look forward to being permadeathed. This may be for valid reasons or made up reasons just to rid of the character, also needing to mention that proof would have to proven against the person of being permadeathed which staff will be mounted with work. 

In best interest this rule should remain as it always has. It should be the owner's decision what to do with the character and no one elses.

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15 minutes ago, Hope said:

I spent a year developing Hope and plan on doing more. Killing off Hope is MY decision like it was MY decision to create her.

In best interest this rule should remain as it always has. It should be the owner's decision what to do with the character and no one elses.

It would remain your decision, the rule would be to enforce consequences that you yourself deserve based on the hostile actions you have taken against people resulting in them gaining execution rights on you. If nobody ever gains execution rights on you then you have nothing to worry about and can continue to play your character to your heart's content.

1 hour ago, C-J said:

I wouldn't perma death a character based on a rule. I spend hours beyond hours developing my current character, I believe 800+ For him to end because of a rule implemented on the server... I wouldn't be so happy. since ive been included  in many hostile situations already.

So you don't want the rule to be implemented so that you can continue to be involved in countless hostile actions and never face any consequences for the lives you've taken and people you've hurt? This type of selfish mentality is exactly the reason so many of us want the rule. People need to answer for themselves and face the consequences of their actions.

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I personally do not see the point in having any rule implemented saying a person needs or are obliged to perma a character.... Some people spend months  among months developing characters and hostilities are more than likley to occur would not say this is a reason for a perma death rule to occur its never been implemented cause its simply not needed . My opinion !

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