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Dusty

Question regarding demands and unreasonable demands

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Dusty    1586

I have a question or two regarding whether or not certain demands are unreasonable, and I would love to get the GM team and the Admin team's official opinions on each question. I'll lay out the general situation, and the actual questions below:

Situation: I am taken hostage by group A and am moved to a secure location. They then make demands to my friends that if they get shot at, I will die. Then, another person from group A initiates on one of my friends. My friend shoots at the person who initiated on him to protect himself and escapes. I am then killed by group A because my friends shot at them, even though they just initiated again on my friends.

Question: Is the kill on me invalid?

I've been led to believe that the kill on me would have been invalid. In that situation listed above, to me it seems very unfair to make demands, and then initiate on someone and kill the hostage when they try to defend themselves. If the kill on me was valid, then people would be able to force people to comply, even if the people being initiated on extremely outnumber or have better positions than the initiator. If they shoot back to defend themselves, then their friend will be killed. But that doesn't seem right or fair at all. You're basically forcing someone to have NVFL for themselves, otherwise their friend will die. I see that situation as the same situation where demands are made, but group A continues to shoot at my friends. My friends are forced to shoot back to save their own lives, and yet if they shoot back even though they're continuing to be shot at after demands were made, I die.


Situation #2: I am taken hostage by group A and am moved to a secure location. Group A sees my friends surrounding/nearby the building that they have me hostage in and decide to initiate by saying "Everybody outside, put your hands up or the hostage will die!". My friends don't put their hands up, so I am killed.

Question: Is that a valid/reasonable demand? 

I've been led to believe that any demand that would force the hostage's friends/people saving the hostage to not value their own lives is an invalid demand to give to hostage takers. It's another situation in which people are forced to put themselves in danger and not value their own lives or else their friend/the hostage will be killed. I've been led to believe that you can make a demand like that, but if they don't comply with the demand, you cannot kill the hostage because the demand is unreasonable. 


If possible, I would like to get an official response from the GM/Admin team regarding these questions. There is currently nothing that clarifies what makes a demand invalid or unreasonable in the rules, so some responses and clarification would be great.

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AndreyQ    0

Situation #1

Imo, the kill would be invalid. I don't think it would classify as an invalid demand and just an RDM.

Situation #2

That in a lot of the cases would be an invalid demand. If you have 3,5 friends outside and they get told to surrender or you would that then that would be invalid. If you would have like 1 or 2 then it would be questionable.

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Oliv    1882

Firstly, apologies for never answering your similar question when you posted it on the ask the admins thread. I've been meaning to add a response to it, and I dropped the ball.

Now..

Situation 1: Firstly, there should never be a demand made that if we take shots from your friends you die before shots are ever taken first. That's not right in my opinion. That should only be something said later on to drive hostage negotiation (you might hear more on this today at the community meeting). I would deem that kill invalid, your friend is just trying to protect himself, and it can cut off RP if they then execute you for actions like that.

Situation 2: It could come down to wording and stuff, but the way you have it worded in your example, leaves nothing for the hostages friends to really do. I mean, they can't just be expected to show up, hear that, and have to throw their weapons down and comply. What if they don't hear the demand due to VOIP range?

Both examples limit the roleplay that could be had, which should always be the primary focus. As well, it's always going to be case by case because not every actual scenario is going to play out the same in game.

This help?

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Dusty    1586

Firstly, apologies for never answering your similar question when you posted it on the ask the admins thread. I've been meaning to add a response to it, and I dropped the ball.

Now..

Situation 1: Firstly, there should never be a demand made that if we take shots from your friends you die before shots are ever taken first. That's not right in my opinion. That should only be something said later on to drive hostage negotiation (you might hear more on this today at the community meeting). I would deem that kill invalid, your friend is just trying to protect himself, and it can cut off RP if they then execute you for actions like that.

Situation 2: It could come down to wording and stuff, but the way you have it worded in your example, leaves nothing for the hostages friends to really do. I mean, they can't just be expected to show up, hear that, and have to throw their weapons down and comply. What if they don't hear the demand due to VOIP range?

Both examples limit the roleplay that could be had, which should always be the primary focus. As well, it's always going to be case by case because not every actual scenario is going to play out the same in game.

This help?

Thank you so much for your response, it definitely helps clarify some things. 

I guess one last thing that needs clarification is if whether not making a demand that forces the hostage rescuers to put themselves in danger is unreasonable or not.

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Oliv    1882

It's a tough call where you have to weigh possible NVFL versus putting the hostage in danger versus forwarding the RP. Honestly, there really is no clear answer, but when in doubt I would think if you put the RP first, that would be your safest bet.

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Sasha    0

It's a tough call where you have to weigh possible NVFL versus putting the hostage in danger versus forwarding the RP. Honestly, there really is no clear answer, but when in doubt I would think if you put the RP first, that would be your safest bet.

In the past it's been stated that demanding the friends to surrender is an unreasonable demand.

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Shark    0

It's a tough call where you have to weigh possible NVFL versus putting the hostage in danger versus forwarding the RP. Honestly, there really is no clear answer, but when in doubt I would think if you put the RP first, that would be your safest bet.

In the past it's been stated that demanding the friends to surrender is an unreasonable demand.

Indeed. We were in a situation last year in Convicts, which led to the "unreasonable demand" bit being added to punishments. http://www.dayzrp.com/t-S1-Bad-RP-Invalid-Execution?pid=1233420#pid1233420

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